Max BURKE

G,day again. I forgot to mention that if you are having trouble with the bronze washers then any small foundry should/would cast a round of phosper bronze Pb1 and you can machine it up to suit your need. Yes we did find a clutch withdrawal washer of bronze. No doubt this was the original material. Perhaps the red fibre examples that we encountered were someones makeshift when the bronze was not available. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Andrew take a look at the rear main bearing brass in the crankcase. Note that it stops about 1/8 inch from the back . The first bronze washer has a step or flange if you like that fits neatly into this space and locates it. I would not use red fibre as it will wear away far too quickly . The material that fibre timing gears are made from is available in round bar form. People that make these gears should part you off a disc and it is long lasting. Don't forget to align the punch marks on the main bearing of the clutch and the crankshaft . Punch mark may be on the end of the key. This clutch assembly was made to fit one way. If not in alignment the crankshaft will try to self align which is not good for it although some owners have purposely put the clutch on wrong to tighten the drive keys. While its apart check that the flange on the crankcase that the first bronze plate bears upon is still there, if worn away dressing up will need to be done and a thicker bronze plate made. The end float is adjusted by shimming the thrust buttons or by moving the back gearbox bush (bearing)Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Phil, cork tends to be compressible, a feature that you do not want here. Perhaps a shim plate cut from 1/16 th aluminium sheet and fine tuned with paper gaskets might save time later as I have found that each time in the future that the cap screws are tightened the backlash will be reduced and as there needs be minimum to start with , say 2 to 4 thou there is not much margin for gasket compression. Although I have not seen one I suspect that your fibre gear has a steel hub to fit the camshaft? The one piece Phosper bronze gear on each of our cars is quite noisy at certain speeds when under load ,at least that is where we think the noise comes from. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G,day Huppers. Andrew, I do not like the rust pits on the withdrawal plate. this plate needs to be quite smooth. Originally there was a large washer of red fibre between this and the withdrawal face of the clutch. This was loose when not being used to put your foot pressure onto the clutch and in time it wore the groove that you mention. Red fibre is not long lasting here. We used a disc that we turned up from 1/4 in hard, thick aluminium . We turned down the thickness so we have a locating flange that keeps the washer running true with the hinged plate. Some folk use a needle roller bearing here but the speed the tiny rollers are doing concerns me. The two bronze plates with the red fibre between them are between the clutch and the machined face at the rear of the barrel crankcase. We were able to set the crankcase in the lathe and face off this face which was badly worn. We screwed the bronze first plate to the crankcase with 3/16 th brass screws then we used a red fibre disc between the 2nd bronze plate which we secured to the clutch. After a year of running the red fibre had almost disappeared so we took a further bronze disc and coated both sides with babbit and machined it to fit. No trouble since. Some folk use a needle roller race here also. As the main bearings are not able to take the clutch thrust from your foot then this is the bearing that does the work because the clutch is a slip fit on the crankshaft keys. There is enough friction here that it will slow the car when slowly changing direction or inching into a parking spot on the clutch. Those who have used needle rollers here say they have eliminated this feature. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day to Huppers. Phil a few years ago we picked up a Hup 20 rear axle assembly that had a pair of heavy cast shoes in each wheel with wide cams. each cam, be it hand or foot, operated both shoes using all of the available drum surface. I intended to cast the shoes in aluminium and use the system but as it was only about fifteen years ago there's still hope that ill do it when I run out of jobs. About thirty years past we bought the remains of a 1916 Hup N that had been made into a truck with a side valve Ford engine from a bren gun carrier and massive back springs. Well the drop arms on the footbrake at the rear had bolt on extensions to make them 2 1/2 inches longer. We used them on our N and copied them for the 32 and both 20cars cant say it doubled the efficiency but it made the brakes no worse. Still waiting for a mod 20 driver to tell if they can skid the wheels on a hard surface at any speed at all, just in a test mind you. Friend Edgar has always said that's what broke his crankshaft, but i'm yet to see one that would shear off a 3/8 bolt. I have heard of a pair of cast iron drums in service but don't have any test reports. Yes, we do have a Tapley brake test meter. We are going to use it in a club event to sort out the facts and the skites. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G,day Lief. The 23,and 24 years on the four are the same or close enough to it, the 22 is different at the flywheel end but all will interchange as a unit. Take a carefull look at the distributer driven gear and the gear on the roller clutch for wear from poor lube. You could if you chose use a roll pin in the coupling . If you do this put the hole at the top and support the shaft lightly with a jack underneath . Without shaft support the waterpump impeller may suffer or worse the pump body may break off at the timing case flange. You might like to tap a thread in the shaft and use an allen head unbrako. Remember if you need to retime the distributer it is easily done by releasing the jamb net and turning the cam shaft in the driven gear. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day again To save time take off the brake band and place it in the drum . Adjust it as previously mentioned until the gap between the ends is a fraction more than the width of the flats of the cam. You may have to trim the unworn ridge in the drum between the shoes and the open drum end may be worn more than the inner. You are probably doing this anyhow and its unlikely that the new lining will have asbestos but it may be new old stock! Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day to all. Well said David . Its a wonder we aint all dead from asbestosis. The white mixture was known here as monkey **** and was used to lag the steam pipes in hospitals and navy ships. Back to business! Check that the end of the shoe that goes onto the cam has not been built up and if so grind it off. If still in trouble put on your mask and with a coarse belt on your linisher take a bit of lining off. I would not turn out the drum but would grind out the unworn 1/8 on the open end remembering what you take away you cant put back, at least not without some swearing. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

On a recent tour our ground brushes on the dynastart failed to pay the rent. On rhd this means removal of the unit as the rhd steering box prevents axcess. While the unit was on the bench and brushes renewed for start and generator it was decided to eliminate the 3rd brush and ground that end of the gen field coil/Then with a suitable mounting plate fixed to the top cover were the coil originally fit a lucas RB 340 current voltage regulator was installed with the F terminal going to the field terminal at the hot end and the D terminal connected to the D + brush terminal An indicator of charge light was put between D+ and B and a press button starter switch was put between B+ and D+ which are common with the field circuit internally within the RB340 before the motor is started .The reason for this press button is to motor the unit from rest to allow engagement with the ring gear on the flywheel should the tooth not be in engageing position at rest as soon. As this is achieved the button is released. We have been running this job at 12 volts for 6 years with the 3rd brush cut right back and a further resistance in the field to limit the amps to 5/7 constant at touring speed Now we have the volts initially @ 13.7 and the amps produced at 15 initially cutting back to just cover the ign draw in a few minutes as the battery recharges to cover the start draw. There is no back charge at a slow speed due to the system now having a cutout in the RB340. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Andrew and all. Assuming that you have bored the mag gear cover and installed a lip type oil seal to run on the mag drive gear you can further make an oil baffle plate from thin metal and install it between the cam gear and the mag gear to help divert the splash from the cam gear which is working like a pump. Make the baffle to just clear the cam gear. The drop in engine revs upon fully disengaging the clutch is caused by the clutch brake taking the pressure from your foot This is what they did. Edgar and other folk eliminated this by replacing the clutch brake friction plates with a needle bearing . I don't like the speed that the 1/8 needle rollers are doing so I elected to use the original type with red fibre friction plate. This wore too quickly and I replaced it with a phosper bronze disc faced with white metal. You may find that when entering your garage in low gear the clutch brake will want to stop forward movement of the car. I recon that the original standpipes were 5/8 in . We are running 3/4 and found that anything higher brought out leaks aplenty especially from the valve tappets. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day to all. Hup 36 well done on your recent purchase. In studying the picture there is no doubt that what you have bought is a Hup model N from late 1915 or most likely 1916. Look to the chassis first. Model K have no stiffner brackets in the area of the rear wheel arches or back X member. The chassis No should be on the LHR dumb iron on a plate fixed by rivets.. Now look to the engine. The electrics of mod K are single unit starter generator. Mod N are as shown in the picture with Bijur on early cars, Westinghouse from 75000. The engine number is on the extreme RHS above the generator but it is also on the inside of the crankcase at the LHF. All of the timing chest is an aluminium casting in two pieces with a single front engine mounting. The N cyl bore is 3 3/4 inch. Go to the rear axle housing. Mod K have two ball races side by side in each wheel hub , N have one large bearing per side. There are no reinforcing gusetts on the K differential centre but the N do have them. At the rear of the mod K gearbox the universal joint is as is in a mod 32. There is no flanged joint. Carden blocks take the drive from the gearbox mainshaft to the tailshaft. The N has a flanged uni joint .The engine and the chassis number are never the same but usually within 100 . 60 000 to 63000 are mod N probably made in 1915.May I say forget the speedster project and build a factory type roadster, you will be pleased that you did. Further look up Australian & New Zealand Hup register you should subscribe to it! Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Karl. Yes, I,m with you. The main object with the Sims is to eventually have it to start off the trembler. We did a test run and it would mostly start without having to crank it, however with so many other jobs on we just left it firing two plugs each cylinder for now. A friend who was an auto lec teacher made me a DU4 that had only the primary winding and used a external 12 volt resister coil. The idea was to start on battery and switch over to Mag when running . It was only marginally usable as when the revs got down under load it would misfire until it picked up a bit then would run ok. Max Chapman was our friends name and just as he was making us a improved model he took a stroke and spent the next few years in a nursing home. He died last year. I believe his winding lathe and all his other equip is locked away for now. We did not go back to the DU4 ,instead we used a DIXI and as we can start on battery it makes for a positive start. Further in the event of a coil failure we can easily convert to external coil and continue on. We have a DIXI on the model 32 and original DIXI export spec. on the mod N. I was able to get from USA a Home model distributer and coil so the N now fires two plugs at the same time. Most people do not like Dixi Magneto but the buying price is often a quarter the price of a du4 and the AERO models are already wired for starting current. There will be a group of your palls coming over for the Hup rally. You would enjoy it if you could come over. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day to all. Karl ,I envy you your ability to do this conversion, but my thoughts on this type of modification are that its better suited to the hotrod hobby. A friend of ours with a 1912 Cadilliac converted it to front wheel disc brakes. When club inspection time came round the inspectors sought advice from the roads and traffic authority as they were then. That body ruled that if the owner persisted that the conversion made the car safer then it must be being operated outside the expected use of a 1912 vehicle and not within the scope of the permit to use system in force at the time. They ruled that the car be submitted to an approved engineer for a report on the conversion and that it must comply with Australian Design Rules or the vehicle be put back to its original configuration, all at owners cost . Our friend took the brakes off the front wheels and sold the car.Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day FM. Of the Franklin that we were speaking of ,there is a quite reasonable picture of it on the Franklin club site in "1912 model D Australia" Bob Lamond must have had it repainted as it was looking well used prior to his ownership. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G,day all. Some years ago my brother in law Bill would say, Hup 20 ,two speed ,Slow and Slower and both of them too fast for the brakes! Bill had a Hup 20 in the 1920s. He was a haulage contractor with a Fiat truck carting wool and wheat. He would be loading on some property and would leave the truck in the field and drive the Hup to his lodgings in the evening, having transported it on the tray of the Fiat. Years later when we got our first 20 on the road we were most disappointed with the stopping power of the foot brake even though we were fussy in all our clearances and angles. The hand brake did work marginally better. We extended the drop arms at the back links but for little improvement. We tried Flexible moulded and a Woven lining with little gain. On a gravel surface @ 25 MPH we can just lock the wheels with the foot brake. The hand brake will lock them every time. On a hard road surface, say Bitumen or concrete at 25 MPH be ready to shout LOOK OUT as neither brake will lock the wheels. Sure thing, both together in a panic stop they will slow the car but not skid the wheels. In our search for Hup 20 parts we acquired an assembly in which the shoes were common to both brake systems. Two shoes per wheel but each shoe full width of the drum and with full width cams so that the full drum is used regardless 0f hand or foot . We did not put this system into service as the shoes are malleable iron and weigh as much as the wheel and drum it seams. Friend Edgar believes this may be the system used on the last of production jobs but it may also be a modification done by Fizackerlys, the Australian importer. Any one seen this style? Have any Hup 20 users had a set of cast iron drums cast ?. If so with what results ? Has anyone seen or are using a set of full width shoes and has anyone connected the links at the backing plates to operate both systems at the one application as seen on this site of the 20 with the Ford engine trans assembly. Lastly would people please tell of their stopping distances on gravel or tar and if efficient, "ours aint", what linings are you using. Max Burke, Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day all. First up this is not a redirected thread for valve timing and help? to that question should be offered on that thread. The question has so far been addressed by folk who are happy with the fixed timing as supplied and have no wish to find if change would improve HP . There are other folk who have fitted a magneto with variable timing and noted an improvement, still others have done this and noted no change so they leave the advance / retard in a position that they like. A further group use the variable spark to run on advance with something like 3/8 inch on the piston and use the hand control for starting and to give a very slow idle . Seems from the few comments that each driver is happy with the system that they have. An Impulse attachment stops the cam advancing until the piston is near TDC and can be set to give retard but not more advance. At a speed above cranking the bob weights on the sprags prevent their engagement with the stops and the magneto reverts to its original fixed spark configuration. Flux point air gap remains constant . In our case the difference in performance from retard to advance @ 30 MPH is about equal to one more cylinder. By the way we run modern spark plugs over the exhaust valves. We find they run cleaner when in slow traffic. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day to all. FM you would surely have been interested in a line of Franklins that lay in a wreckers yard in the Newcastle area in the 1950s there were 8,maybe 10 in a line and little had been taken from them. I had never seen one before and was intrigued by the air cooled engine and wooden chassis. They were mostly Horse collar fronts perhaps early 20s. In the 1970s a raging bushfire went through the area and destroyed them all. There was a Franklin in our veteran car club . It was well used, in summer the floor got really hot! It met with disaster and cracked the combustion chamber between the valve seats and eventually the top of the cylinders were parted off to gain access to the problem. In desperation a set of vintage cylinders were fitted and the car sold to an American enthusiast . It went back to USA where it was said to be the last of its type known. It had pent roof combustion chambers and parallel valves. Perhaps you know the car? 6 cyl 6 litre 38 hp @62 developed @2250 revs. Dated 1912 model D. I can give you more on it if you would like.Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day to all. Isn,t it grand to have some varied point of view on the fixed spark debate. If we had a dyno we could determine if the point of firing made a real difference or indeed if there is enough increase in power to warrant change. Testing with a stop watch over a fixed distance up a test hill would show results when comparing various advance settings. Just how the Franklin achieved constant flux gap with a centrifugal advance I have not quite comprehended unless a MEA or Dixi magneto was used . The Mason principal used here kept the "gap" constant .Please explain FM for our enlightenment. One of our Hup friends with a model B series 20 has converted his gearbox to five speed. I often tell him to sell the Hup and build a hot rod as he is in the wrong hobby Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

There are many among us who tell the rest of us that fixed spark has advantages. Its advantage to the Hup 20 was in cost. The magneto was cheaper to put on the car as it had fewer parts. The pole shoes were more simple ,No combe, and there was no need to provide a means for the driver to move the cam ring whilst driving. All this austerity just meant a sale instead of the buyer taking up a FORD. If you believe the marks on the flywheel are constant for life, even when the flywheel is not even off the engine it left the factory with, then I salute your good faith. Before committing to these marks of unknown origin please set your engine with the piston 3/8 down the cylinder on the compression stroke. Clearly mark the ign mark with a thin line of white out This is the mark for your engine. The original magneto gear had two keyways but used only one key. Why? To give a half tooth timing variation. Hup instruction called for removing the cover plate and with the armature bobbin past the edge of the pole shoe by .020, this is where the contacts must break. This is said to be the point of maximum flux. Check the ign with a timing light at various speeds. Is it constant to your mark? I have driven many of the Hup 20 s in Australia and have yet to find one not improved by a magneto in which the varying of the spark from the drivers seat was not an advantage. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia.

G,day to all. Andrew I cant see any real way out of a rusted out block The cures that have been put forward are none of them permanent and will all fail if not tomorrow sometime far from home. Unfortunately this block has had the dick, send it for a rainbow and look for its replacement. Max Burke, Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day all. Yes Andrew ,that is the way we do ours. Don't groove the rod. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day all.Andrew there is no need to groove the metal in the rod but at the joining face file or cut a chamfer in the white metal about 3/32 but don't bring it out to the edge, leave about a 1/4 inch at each end, do the same with the cap. Now grab the dipper in the vyce and cut an X in the cap metal so the legs of the X run into the chamfers with the cross over the dipper hole. job done 3 to go. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Phil, Your home made jig will work perfectly. You have the later type torque tube with screwed on ball. I would not use the paper gasket as in time it will chafe out. Loctite 515 ,although expensive will seal the joint. The old Cessnock Motor Works were I was an apprentice in the 1950s had a Weaver axle jig, a magic piece of equipment. When General Motors Holden ordered the shop modernised in the early 1960s it went to the tip with other wonderful pieces. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Huppers. Phil, we use gear lube GL OO, which is a slimy pourable grease commonly used in track rollers of dozers, in our the uni joint. Because we have the white metal plain bearing in back of the gearbox and no oil seal there, oil from the engine goes back to the gearbox and further back to the universal joint from there it oozes onto the road. We made up a ring of aluminium and screwed it to the end of the uni joint housing with a ring of felt compressed therein but as the position of the bell is not constant , it travels fore and aft with spring movement , our modification was a failure. Behind the pinion I have only seen a Timken taper bearing used, although early assembly may have been angular contact ball, as were the early CW carrier bearings. An oil slinger in form of a flat disc fitted between the pinion and bearing will retard the pumping action of the crown wheel up the tube, although those models with the later Hyatt flex roller bearing in addition to the pinion roller bearing may welcome the extra oil . Leaving this flex bearing out, it runs directly on the drive shaft, seems to cause no problem. On the front behind the uni joint the cup and cone ball race can be changed to a Timken taper roller type , the early type adjusted with shim pack for preload, the later torque tube has the bell screwed for preload adjustment and is easier to work with. Some restorers have replaced the plain bearing at rear of the gearbox with INA needle roller bearings and an oil seal. Happy Hupping Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia

G,day Phill. Set the LHS axle housing in a clamp or a vice on your workbench with the open side up. Back the three bearing extraction screws right off and with the new Timken cup fitted in the housing offer up the carrier assembly into the housing so that the crown wheel has maximum backlash. Now fit the torque tube containing its shaft and pinion assembled to the one half of the axle housing in your vice. Next adjust the pinion in or out with spacer washers between the torque tube assembly until the heel ends of the pinion are level with the heel ends of the crown wheel. The thickness of the temporary washers will determine the shim pack you need here. Note there is a small projection on the torque tube to accurately locate the tube to the axle housing. Bring the crown wheel on its carrier up to the pinion using the three bearing extraction screws which you replaced with long allen head for convienience .Allow about ten thou by feel of backlash. Lift out the CW assembly and with a depth gauge measure the protrusion of the pusher screws Make up a spacer of Brass or Steel to this thickness. And now reinstall. With the RHS prepared in the same way assemble with 3 or 4 B/N . Leave the torque tube off just now. Bring up your new allen screws on this housing and turning the C/W assembly through the vacated torque tube hole give a nice steady drag. Loosten the B/N on the flange and with a feeler gauge measure the distance the joint springs apart. 003 to 005 will do. As before make a spacer to the value of the protrusion of the allen screws. It is not a wise plan to use the three allen head screws on the bearing cup although some do. Shim packs can be used to trim the spacer adjustment Do not use paper gaskets rely on 515. Double nut or wire the torque tube. If the shim pac exceeds the locating spigot the cup of the taper pinion bearing can be shimmed behind the bearing cup Swearing is tolerated but pref when no one is around. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia