1955 Century Brake Mystery

[packick]

I have been battling this issue all year.  I am now at wits end trying to solve this problem.  I also posted this problem about 8 months ago when the relining job was new.

 

After relining all the brakes on the car, the brakes pulled to the left.  I removed the left drum and inspection showed nothing wrong.  So, I decided to switch the front drums, shoes and springs from left-to-right and right-to-left.  This would determine if I had a bad brake hose.  After doing this, the car then pulled to the right.  The brake hose is not the problem nor would a bad shock be the problem. 

 

Then I switched back the drums only.  It still pulled to the right, but not as bad.  I then took the shoes back to the brake shop for inspection just to make sure.  They were OK.  Per a Forum suggestion, I "scored" the drums and shoes with 80-grit sandpaper; I then reassembled everything as it was in the beginning,  with everything in their original locations. 

 

It still pulled to the left but not as bad.  So possibly could the left drum be the culprit?  I decided to loosen the left brake shoe 2 clicks with the theory being the right front would engage before the left front.  That worked somewhat for a while but now it is back to pulling to the left.

 

Note that I have had the car realigned.  Also note that the pulling is at its worst when I aggressively put on the brakes; normal easing to a stop braking isn't as noticeable.  Since the brake relining job, I have (cautiously) put about 400 miles on the car so the brakes should have seated by now.

 

Could I have a weak brake spring on the right side that is preventing that side from engaging the brakes as quickly as the left side?  If that could be the cause, how do I test the springs?  If that is the case, how do you test a spring for weakness.  Could the left or right drum be a problem?  If so, what do I look for?

 

There you have it.  Any ideas???

[lancemb]

Since switching the shoes left to right switched the condition, it seems pretty clear that the shoes are the problem.  I know you had them inspected, but I do not have confidence they were inspected fully relative to your problem.

 

I recommend that you remove the shoes from each side (mark thenm so you don't get them mixed up) and line the front shoes from each side up together precisely and do same for the rear.

 

Look for any differences, including the location of the linings on the metal frame of the shoe itself, and the locations of the mounting holes.  If I had to bet based on the information given only, the geometry of the shoe itself and/or the securement points is somehow incorrect and not same as the other.

[Airy Cat]

Did you readjust the anchor pins when you installed new linings?

[Bhigdog]

Just exchange the front (small) shoes..................Bob

[Airy Cat]

Shop manual says to readjust the anchor pins when installing new lining.

[Frank DuVal]

Drum is just a hunk of cast iron. What might be different is the ID of the drums are slightly different, so when you swap them without adjusting, the pulling changes slightly, just like adjusting one side vs the other side. Unless the drum ID is too large (or scored, warped, etc.  you would have replaced it by now anyway), it should be fine.

 

Are the shoes axle set (4 shoes)  2 of one friction length and two of another friction length? Are the shorter friction length shoes on the forward side of each brake assembly?

 

Drop all the springs (one at a time) on the concrete floor. Do any sound different than the others? This is an unscientific test of heat damaged springs. Do any springs have coils that do not touch? Also a sign of bad springs.

[Beemon]

 Did you replace the springs when you did your brake job? 

[packick]

In answer to the several questions asked by respondents:

 

- Yes, I did adjust the anchor pins on both sides.

- No, I did not install new springs; i used the old springs.  The reason that I used the old pins is because the brakes never pulled to one side or the other until I put the new lining on.

- I would assume that even if the ID of the drums were different, when I adjusted the brakes with the adjustment wheel that would compensate for the ID difference.  To get the same drag on each wheel, if the ID was different then one side or the other would take more "clicks" on the wheel to get the same drag.

 

I will do as Iancemb suggests and place the shoes on the bench and give them a thorough inspection.  I did this before and that is why I took them back to the brake shop.  One of the shoes had a bit extra lining on them but it was at the very tip where it tapers off and would not contact the drum when braking.  But I didn't look at the arc difference (if any) of the lining or shoes.  I can also try what Bhigdog suggests and switch the primary shoes to see what that does.

 

Thanks for the responses.  You have given me some other things to think about.

[60FlatTop]

The two pistons in each wheel cylinder have a gap between them filled with brake fluid. In that area, the brake fluid has some level of water contamination depending of how long since it was changed That pits the bore of the cylinder and usually creates a brown muddy mixture.

 

When relined brake shoes are installed the pistons are pushed inward into the mud and the piston seal moves over the pits. Usually relining the brakes for the first time in years will cause the piston seal to leak and quickly leave one without brakes and fluid running out the bottom of the drum.

 

If the mud is really thick it may seal things up. I have seen both, but leaking after a reline is more common. Take the drum off and roll back the outer wheel cylinder cups. You might see traces of the mud or find the rubber cup full of it. The cylinder will need honing, sleeving , or replacement.

 

Those brake return springs mount at the worst angle of any engineered design I have ever seen. They will lose tension with age. Just replace them. Not only are they weak, but they have added resistance from any contaminates in the wheel cylinder bore. It is a system and every component needs to be "like new".

 

Once you get clean fluid between those pistons bleed them every 1 to 2 years to keep it fresh. That may be the only service you will need to do thereafter.

Bernie

[old-tank]

What is the brand or source of the shoes?

[packick]

Old-Tank, the shoes are the original '55 Buick shoes; I have no idea what brand the lining is.  It is what the Brake shop put on.

 

Bernie:  I failed to mention in my narrative that I also installed new wheel cylinders on all four wheels as part of the brake relining job.  I had problems with a couple of the old ones leaking (oozing) so I just replaced all of them.  I am tending to agree with you and others that I should purchase a new set of brake springs.  

 

 

[old-tank]

On your Century the rear shoes are the same so swap them to the front.

When your brake shoes were redone there may have been lining material from different batches used.  Sometimes code letters/numbers on the edges will tell.

If the shoes got real hot before break-in, they will never work right (too tight adjustment on one or riding the brakes to 'make it work or else').

The car was aligned, but have the toe-in checked again...if toed out it will pull worse.

[packick]

Old-Tank:

 

I thought about the alignment being off (e.g., toe-in) but the fact that the car pulled to the opposite side when I switched left-to right, right-to-left made me rule that out.   Or is there something I am missing?

 

I will try the front-to-back trick you suggested.  When I first test-drove the car after installing the new lining, I did ride the brakes a bit (10 seconds or so for about 4 times) but I don't think I got the brakes "real hot."  And I only did this because it was pulling to the left.

 

Thanks.

[old-tank]

Brakes that have a barely noticeable pull with proper toe-in will pull to that side with toe-out on hard braking. 

When the new linings were installed did you take in the drums also to be resurfaced and then have the new shoes arced to fit the drums?  If not then riding the brakes may have heated a small section in the center and ruined the shoe.  Do you have a brake caliper?  Use it to measure the drum to be sure it is not too far worn and when assembling, measure both the drum and the installed shoes so that you don't have to do too much adjustment.

FWIW the last shoes I had made (for mine) they used "non-asb molded lining 3915F"...I don't know it that number is universal in the industry or the shops' own inventory number.

Seems that these new shoes do not tolerate any contamination:  oil, grease or brake fluid.  In times past with asbestos shoes contamination was washed off with gasoline (oil and grease) or hot water (brake fluid).  We used to install new (cheapo) linings on severely worn, grooved and tapered drums and they gave good service after a short break-in.

Before going to the trouble of swapping shoes, sand the shoes and drums with 36 grit until any shiny glaze is gone and then drive carefull for a few hundred miles before standing on the brakes.

[packick]

Old-Tank:

 

Thanks again for your advice.  Yes, the shoes were arced to the drums and the drums were tested for size.  I have already sanded the drums and linings but I will do as you suggest and get the shinyness out of them.

[old-tank]

1 hour ago, packick said:

Old-Tank:

 

Thanks again for your advice.  Yes, the shoes were arced to the drums and the drums were tested for size.  I have already sanded the drums and linings but I will do as you suggest and get the shinyness out of them.

Yikes!  You did everything right!  I would expect the cheapest linings (Rockauto or local) to perform better than that.  Time and aggravation you will never get back...maybe try a $25 set as an experiment or take yours back for a redo.

[Airy Cat]

If toy can find someone that can arc your shoes to the drum that would help.

[JohnD1956]

For what its worth, I used a set of shoes from NAPA and a set from Advanced Auto on my 56. These were about $20.00 a set. I have 800 + miles on them now.  Like Willie suggests, there will be a slight pull under hardbraking but none under normal conditions.  Like many others it seemed the car would not stop when the shoes were new. Even now there is a discernable difference between the first one or two stops of the day.  In all situations it feels like its harder to push the pedal but all new springs were also installed. The main point is that under hardbraking there is no doubt these shoes grab and work well. 

As to the original problem reported I might suggest its possible different materials were used on one of the shoes if you get the pull under light braking. In which case it may make progress to switch the shoes front to rear. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

On 11/26/2017 at 6:13 PM, old-tank said:

Yikes!  You did everything right!  I would expect the cheapest linings (Rockauto or local) to perform better than that.  Time and aggravation you will never get back...maybe try a $25 set as an experiment or take yours back for a redo.

 

 

All that has been done to the drums Willies suggestion is the best course of action IMHO.      

[Bhigdog]

Or you can try switching just the primaries to see if that balances out the pull. Just sayin........................Bob

[packick]

Based upon several suggestions, I am going to switch the primary shoes on the front to see what effect that has.  I will also "renew" the linings and drums with 50-grit sand paper.  If the brakes still pull after that, I may break down and take the car to a professional brake shop to see what they can find out.  Stay tuned and thanks for all of your help and suggestions.

[packick]

I think I made a brake through (get it . . . BRAKE through?) on the brakes pulling mystery.

 

As per several of your suggestions, I decided to switch the primary brakes.  As you may recall, the brakes are pulling to the left, driver’s side.  When I removed the passenger side drum, I discovered two things: the linings were gouged quite a bit (see the pictures, primary shoe top, secondary shoe bottom), and the outer bearing and race I had to drive out with a punch (usually these fall out when you tilt the drum after removal).  Then I recalled that I had put in a new outer bearing when I initially did the brake job.  I was reluctant to put in this bearing in that it has a plastic (or Bakelite) housing around the balls (see the picture).  But, I just figured this is what all of the new products are made of nowadays so I installed it.  Note that the driver’s side linings were as smooth as a baby’s bottom when I removed that drum.

 

I now believe that the cause of my brakes pulling to the left initially, and then to the right when I switched the drums was caused by this cheap, crapo, inferior, Mickey Mouse bearing.  I believe the left side, pulling side, was doing 75% of the braking. 

 

Since the initial brake job, I had purchased an L&S NOS bearing and race off the Internet and will be installing that when I reassemble everything (I always like to have a spare on hand).  I will be taking the brake shoes down to the brake shop to see what can be done with those.

 

Any thoughts on the bearing being the cause of the brake pulling or am I on the wrong track?

Edited December 3, 2017 by packick
Clarification of pictures (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Joe, a couple of things. When you put the new outer bearing in did you also put in a new race? If not that is likely the cause of the stuck bearing. 

Also I don't see how a bearing problem or failure would damage the shoes unless it was catastrophic and pieces got past the grease seal.

I agree I would not use a plastic race bearing in my car.

I really don't see your brake pulling problem being bearing related. Just sayin..............Bob

[Beemon]

If the bearing failed, it would have broke the plastic carrier most likely. Even then, it would still be in the hub - your shoes look like they were gouged with foreign contaminate. What do the drums look like? Grease seal? It could be an indication of poor linings.

 

For the record, I have been using the National Bearings from RockAuto (the bakelite/plastic carrier bearings) and have had zero issue with them. No spindle wobble or play is present. Even drove some of the worst highways on the west coast with them (I5, I405, Highway 26) and still going strong. Just keep them packed with fresh grease like the shop manual says and they'll last.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[old-tank]

The bearing and the race did not match and line up causing the hub and drum to cock with resulting damage.  Mis-matched parts...I had that on the inner bearing.  Better to use used vs some of the available junk.

[Airy Cat]

I too have a Border Collie that looks just like your dog.  His name is Jack and he is a lot of fun and too smart for his britches.  Ha Ha

[packick]

To my recollection, I DID install the new bearing with the inner and outer races that came with it.  I was taught a long time ago never to mix and match bearings and races.  I am taking the shoes to the brake shop tomorrow to see if it is indeed poor lining material, foreign material, or whatever.  The inside of the drum looks OK with a smooth surface and no gouges.  I still will install my new bearing when I reinstall everything.

[old-tank]

It may or may not be a bearing problem, but the one plastic cage set I saw was inferior:  the balls were larger than the original and did not fit the grooves of the supplied inner and outer races; check that when you get it apart.

[Bhigdog]

I HATE brake problems.......................Bob

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

I HATE brake problems.......................Bob

 

Let me clarify:

They are often elusive as to cause.

Finding correct components is elusive

Repro parts are often not quite correct

Finding knowledge people is often elusive

Other than at the wheel they are often difficult and tedious to work on

They require a fair amount of maintenence

Some booster re-builders are incompetent

 

I HATE brake problems because when they rear their head I have to deal with them....................Bob

 

[packick]

I took the passenger side linings and drum back to the brake shop.  The mechanic there said it looks like the linings were subjected to heat, but was stumped as to why the drum looked OK and not scored.  The linings were also starting to separate from the shoes.  I mentioned that if the brakes were dragging to cause the heat then wouldn’t I have felt pulling on the steering wheel?

 

Well, today I had a modern car mechanic friend of mine come over to discuss the whole brake issue with him.  He inspected the outer bearing on that wheel, the one with the plastic cage, and said it looks like every ball bearing had scoring/scratches on them.  He thinks the bearing was not turning and thus created heat that was transferred to the linings.  That is why I didn’t feel any dragging on the steering wheel.  It is probably why I had to drive the outer bearing out with a punch when I removed the drum.  We both think the bearing has a manufacturing defect since the installation process I used is the same one I have used on many, many other brake jobs I have done.

 

This hypothesis makes sense to me and explains why when I transferred the drums to the opposite sides, the dragging also went to that side. The true test of this hypothesis will be when I get the new linings back from the brake shop and do a test drive.

[Bhigdog]

Good luck , Joe , but I really think the "hot bearing" is way implausible. First,  the bearing getting hot enough to transfer enough heat to the linings is unimaginable.  Steel is a poor conductor of heat. The bearing would need to be white hot for a LONG period to do that. Even moderate heat would have melted the plastic carrier. It would have turned the bearing balls blue. It would have melted the grease and likely caught fire. The axle stub would have to show over heat ( blue). Just my opinion for what it's worth..........Bob

 

 

[packick]

Bob: 

 

What you say makes sense but it still doesn't explain that if the linings got hot because of "sticking to the drum," it still doesn't explain why I never felt the drag on the steering wheel.  Except for when I applied the brakes, the car went straight down the road.  And as I mentioned, the left brake linings were fine.  I am puzzled. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by packick
Typo (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

9 minutes ago, packick said:

Bob: 

 

What you say makes sense but it still doesn't explain that if the linings got hot because of "sticking to the drum," it still doesn't explain why I never felt the drag on the steering wheel.  Except for when I applied the brakes, the car went straight down the road.  And as I mentioned, the left brake linings were fine.  I am puzzled. 

 As Am I , Joe. But I do think in the end it is a brake lining problem. I wrestled with brake problems on my 57 for years. I think I went through 3 sets of shoes until I sent them to a brake specialist. As soon as I put the shoes with the new linings on the car stopped  straight as an arrow and on a dime with just light toe pressure...........Bob

[avgwarhawk]

It does not take much for a bearing to fail. Non-spinning heat creating bearings would fail in a few miles IMO.