Please ID this unknown car in Allentown, PA, photo est. date 1910-1913

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

[nzcarnerd]

I have had a look at plenty of cars of this era and have found many that it is not. From a very short era when the car has the beginnings of a torpedo cowl but still has gas side lights - mounted at the front of the cowl, which is not common. Vertical hood louvres so not Oldsmobile. Eight rims bolts and ten hub bolts narrows it down. Wheelbase not that long as the rear doors are cut away. Body looks to be five passenger rather than seven.  Tempting to say Kissel but there are things that don't match. Others I have discounted are Interstate, Chalmers, Mitchell, Stutz and Auburn.

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

Thank you for the effort. I am just guessing the date range of the photos as the little boy is my grandpa, born 1908. He looks about 4-5 years old to my untrained eye. My greatgrandpa owned some restaurants in Allentown. He had some money, but I think was not wealthy. I have little knowledge of very old cars and am completely clueless! I know Maccar (later Mack) started in Allentown about that time, but I thought they only made trucks.

[1937hd45]

Hub caps have an Oldsmobile look to them. Maybe from the 1914 era. Bob

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

One family member recalls my grandpa saying his Dad owned a Cadillac - but we don't know when that might have been. Could this be a Cadillac?

[nzcarnerd]

11 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Hub caps have an Oldsmobile look to them. Maybe from the 1914 era. Bob

My first thought was the same but Oldsmobiles of that era have 'sloping' louvres and also are 'styled' with mouldings around the doors, and particularly on the cowl.

[nzcarnerd]

14 minutes ago, GeorgeS-oldcar said:

One family member recalls my grandpa saying his Dad owned a Cadillac - but we don't know when that might have been. Could this be a Cadillac?

No, not a  Cadillac. The hood is too long, which suggests a six cylinder engine, and the curve of the front fenders is wrong.  Cadillacs were all electric from 1912 and this car has gas side lights. There are some aspects which are Cadillac-like, for example, ten spoke front wheels, the right number of both rim bolts and hub bolts. Here is a 1914 Cadillac.

[nzcarnerd]

A guess, but I reckon the mystery car is painted two tone, maybe blue (or red?) body and black hood, with the door edges picked out in black also. There were a few makes used that scheme. I took this pic of a Mitchell in Las Vegas in 2015, door edges not black of course and it is a seven passenger. The cowl is similar to our mystery car but other things are not right.

[nzcarnerd]

This Chalmers is about as close as I have found but I still don't think it is right. Headlights and wheels look about right but the body is wrong. Note also the tall radiator filler. The Chalmers has suicide rear doors the mystery car they are conventional. There were rapid changes in styling and I suspect there were mid season updates.

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

Wow, you folks really know your stuff!! I am in awe. I have another photo, sadly it is about the same profile. This must have been taken at a car club event. If you look behind the car there is a box camera on a tripod and more box cameras on the ground.

[nzcarnerd]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeS-oldcar said:

Wow, you folks really know your stuff!! I am in awe. I have another photo, sadly it is about the same profile. This must have been taken at a car club event. If you look behind the car there is a box camera on a tripod and more box cameras on the ground.

It is certainly an impressive looking car - big wheels and compact touring body. I would go with 1914 for the date - just can't work out the make! There was a surprisingly large number of makes on the market at the time. Some were only built in small numbers to supply a small local area., and some were only one-offs or prototypes that didn't reach production. The attached pic I have had on file for some time - it may have come from this site but have no record of it. I have no idea what it is but you can see that almost every distinguishing feature of it is different to your mystery car.

[nzcarnerd]

I am intrigued by the exhaust organ, complete with the control unit for the passenger.

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

Wouldn't you just love to hear that coming down the road! I wondered if the organ control was electric and controlled the cables like a music box with a rotation spindle. I, of course, have never seen anything like what is in the photo.

[Gunsmoke]

Child in rear could be as old as 7/8, suggesting car could be as late as a 1915/16/17 model. Looked at 1915 Zimmerman Six, very similar hood louvers, long front fenders, etc not many photos available to determine door swing, etc..Those long "flattish" front fenders are unusual for the period, most cars had front fenders more likely to follow shape of wheels. Many cars circa 1914/1917 (pre-war) looked like this.

[nzcarnerd]

12 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Child in rear could be as old as 7/8, suggesting car could be as late as a 1915/16/17 model. Looked at 1915 Zimmerman Six, very similar hood louvers, long front fenders, etc not many photos available to determine door swing, etc..Those long "flattish" front fenders are unusual for the period, most cars had front fenders more likely to follow shape of wheels. Many cars circa 1914/1917 (pre-war) looked like this.

On the Zimmerman, the front ends of the front fenders are different. The rear hubs have only six bolts and there are only six rims bolts. The front wheels have twelve spokes. The rear door is the wrong shape, as is the cowl.

 

 

  

Edited August 8, 2017 by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

[DLynskey]

Whatever it is, it is certainly an impressive car. Grandpa was justifiably proud of it.

 

Don

[rcr]

On 8/7/2017 at 9:01 PM, GeorgeS-oldcar said:

 

Wow, you folks really know your stuff!! I am in awe. I have another photo, sadly it is about the same profile. This must have been taken at a car club event. If you look behind the car there is a box camera on a tripod and more box cameras on the ground.

 

This photo is taken at Devils Den at the Gettysburg Battlefield, a popular destination for automobilists.

[Larry Schramm]

Studebaker?

[1909schacht]

R C H  1912-13 ?

[keiser31]

Nope.

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

My cousin had this comment about the unknown car. "Harry and brothers I understand shared a Franklin. The tell is the classic Franklin wooden spokes on wheels."

 

I admit I know next to nothing about antique cars. But don't most cars of the pre-WW1 era have wooden wheel spokes?  I have looked at Franklin photos on the internet and don't see the same hood lines as the unknown car. Also, Franklin cars were noted for being air-cooled in the ads of the period, The unknown car looks like it has a radiator fill cap. What is interesting to me about my cousins's comment is that two or more brothers may have pooled their money. And, if so, were able to buy a more expensive car than I thought my greatgrandfather might have done.

[keiser31]

Not a Franklin.

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

On 8/9/2017 at 9:40 PM, rcr said:

This photo is taken at Devils Den at the Gettysburg Battlefield, a popular destination for automobilists.

Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a location winner. I don't know how you recognized this as Devil's Den but you are correct! In just a few minutes I found the exact rocky background in a photo uploaded to Google Earth by Layne Parmenter titled Boulders @ Devil's Den. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25217107?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com  at 39°47'28.67"N,  77°14'32.22"W. This is along the road south of the Sniper's Post. This must have been an adventuresome tour in 1913 or so. Thank you for the tip. Now if we could just figure out what this car was!

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

Gettysburg at 50: The Great Reunion of 1913. Maybe that was the reason for the trip.

[lump]

My memory must be failing me...or there are TWO battlefield places at Gettysburg with the name "Devil's _____". I thought I recalled that place being called, "Devil's Cauldron." Am I mis-remembering this? 

 

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

An internet search of Am. Civil War didn't give me any battles known as Devil's Cauldron. There were many, including Devil's Den, that are described as being like a cauldron.

[rcr]

This place is known as Devils Den now and in those days and during the war. I had a photo of the Wanamaker family in their 1904 Winton taken at the same spot. As stated previously, this was a popular destination and a trolley line also went there. There are many photos taken at this same spot with automobiles and their caretakers. Robert Barrett of Angola , New York has one of these musical devices on his 1912 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost touring and can play it as well. 

[rcr]

I believe NZcarnerd is correct. This is a 1913 Chalmers Six Torpedo which was the largest of their models, 54 hp. $2400. as compared to the 36.

[nzcarnerd]

6 minutes ago, rcr said:

I believe NZcarnerd is correct. This is a 1913 Chalmers Six Torpedo which was the largest of their models, 54 hp. $2400. as compared to the 36.

Thank you. I had an idea it might be a Chalmers. Just couldn't find anything to back it up.

[Guest GeorgeS-oldcar]

Thank you all so much for your help identifying my great-grandfather's car. My cousin just emailed that my uncle has a copy of the photo of the car at Gettysburg and the photo is dated Oct. 6, 1914.