1956 322 Dual Quads or EFI?

[Beemon]

My tax returns and money accumulated from Birthday/Christmas (Love or Hate December birthdays. Depends on whether or not its your turn for the big win.) will only cover the expenses for the rear diff and exhaust work this year. I have one payment for school left to make next month and then I have no more expenses until fall, so after taxes I make about just as much saving up during spring and into summer. My original plan with the car was to keep stock drive train and do small superficial performance mods to the engine, such as an extra carburetor. However, with the onset of EFI, and specifically Holley's new EFI coming out in June that pretty much simplifies the whole ordeal, I'm on the fence. I still want a dual setup, and can achieve this down the road with the Holley EFI, but dual carbs is the equivalent of one EFI and I want some opinions. There's a few intake manifolds on Ebay right now and they also commonly pop up so I'm not too worried about availability.

 

The manifold will be between $200-600 and I'll need it for both setups, so I'll rule that out. The EFI swap also calls for an alternator, but I need one anyways as I'm pushing the limits with the stock generator using the heater blower, seal beams, etc.

 

2 Edelbrock 1403 carburetors will run about $750, plus plumbing. This will be the easiest since I won't need to replace my pump, and also the fastest.

 

1 Holley Sniper EFI system will run $1000, plus a $150 fuel tank from Tanks, Inc. and a $540 Aeromotive Phantom 200 EFI sump pump kit and plumbing brings the EFI to ~$1700, but the added drive-ability pays for itself and I can sideline the manifold until next year when I can pick up a second Holley Sniper. Plus if I go this route, I would also invest in an MSD 6A ignition box, coil and Nailhead distributor with lock out for a controlled timing, another $708. This is not a requirement, but I'd like to have it eventually.

 

Obviously leaning towards the carbs, but wanted thoughts.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I have EFI on my '50 STRAIGHT EIGHT.  Drive ability IS much improved. I have driven about 8000 miles with it. If you qare going to drive very much, it is great, in my opinion. No stalling , hard starting or flooding.  

 

  I vote EFI

 

  Ben

[Roadmaster75]

My take on dual quads for the 322 is that it would end up being way too over carbureted.

Without matching fuel delivery with exhaust mods, cam, head mods, valve train mods, etc.

it's just gonna eat raw fuel and end up blowing sooty exhaust.

 

I had a 350 small block motor in a street rod.  I wanted dual exhaust ...largely for the

visual effect...!  It had the Edelbrocks (500 CFM was the smallest they had), a cam, headers, headwork, and a dual point

distributor.

Despite a serious dyno tuning session;

the car ate fuel, got terrible mileage (10mpg), and really didn't start or perform well.... although it looked cool.

Just couldn't eat 1000 CFM fast enough.

The remedy of sorts ended up being an MSD 6A, an MSD billet distributor (mechanical advance), and hotter coil.

This set up really helped burn fuel better and got 14-15mpg., and woke the thing up in the performance dept.

It was still over carbed in my opinion.  Should have been more like a 650-750 CFM 4 barrel instead of 1000cfm!

 

So moral of the story....IF you put twin 500s on that 322 you must put that MSD combo on it.  But, without some serious 

machine work and mods I don't think you'll be happy & you'll constantly be fiddling with jetting, mixture stuff.

 

I think you'd be better off with a well researched EFI combo, the MSD set up, big wires, alternator, and a plug heat range that

makes sense.  Turn the key & go!

my 2 cents

 

 

[Beemon]

I kind of thought it might be too much but from what I've read, the nailhead likes over carburetion. I do plan on putting more than stock exhaust, but would still be the same size pipe and the rest of the car is stock. First thing I suppose would be to get the msd kit and alternator since both setups would need it. I'm running the pertronix right now with a HP coil. 

[NC-car-guy]

I've never fuel injected an old car, always wanted to, but $. Anyhow, I drove my 55 special with a 264 and 2bbl daily through college and kept up with current highway speeds. Ever drove her 3 hours home on weekends!

[Guest]

On 3/25/2016 at 3:23 AM, Beemon said:

My tax returns and money accumulated from Birthday/Christmas (Love or Hate December birthdays. Depends on whether or not its your turn for the big win.) will only cover the expenses for the rear diff and exhaust work this year. I have one payment for school left to make next month and then I have no more expenses until fall, so after taxes I make about just as much saving up during spring and into summer. My original plan with the car was to keep stock drive train and do small superficial performance mods to the engine, such as an extra carburetor. However, with the onset of EFI, and specifically Holley's new EFI coming out in June that pretty much simplifies the whole ordeal, I'm on the fence. I still want a dual setup, and can achieve this down the road with the Holley EFI, but dual carbs is the equivalent of one EFI and I want some opinions. There's a few intake manifolds on Ebay right now and they also commonly pop up so I'm not too worried about availability.

 

The manifold will be between $200-600 and I'll need it for both setups, so I'll rule that out. The EFI swap also calls for an alternator, but I need one anyways as I'm pushing the limits with the stock generator using the heater blower, seal beams, etc.

 

2 Edelbrock 1403 carburetors will run about $750, plus plumbing. This will be the easiest since I won't need to replace my pump, and also the fastest.

 

1 Holley Sniper EFI system will run $1000, plus a $150 fuel tank from Tanks, Inc. and a $540 Aeromotive Phantom 200 EFI sump pump kit and plumbing brings the EFI to ~$1700, but the added drive-ability pays for itself and I can sideline the manifold until next year when I can pick up a second Holley Sniper. Plus if I go this route, I would also invest in an MSD 6A ignition box, coil and Nailhead distributor with lock out for a controlled timing, another $708. This is not a requirement, but I'd like to have it eventually.

 

Obviously leaning towards the carbs, but wanted thoughts.

Greetings    

 

                You aren't in uncharted territory, but population is low compared to other car makes! Recommend you talk with Russ Martin in Grass Valley CA. He's been "nailheading" for a lifetime, with a Dad who was doing it before that. Good all around resource for parts and I'd guess with the contacts he deals with doing what you are starting, he prolley hears what works and just as important what don't. No use reinventing the wheel when someone's been there done that, so to speak. Enough junk to go wrong, especially if your the first not the second mouse on the cheese at the trap! Please update regularly, as I'm really fascinated to hear what you end up doing. I have to get the Dynaflow switched out on my 55 Century to at least get it moving under its own power before I dive into my upgrades. Good Luck, Greg

[Beemon]

31 minutes ago, 2carb40 said:

Greetings    

 

                You aren't in uncharted territory, but population is low compared to other car makes! Recommend you talk with Russ Martin in Grass Valley CA. He's been "nailheading" for a lifetime, with a Dad who was doing it before that. Good all around resource for parts and I'd guess with the contacts he deals with doing what you are starting, he prolley hears what works and just as important what don't. No use reinventing the wheel when someone's been there done that, so to speak. Enough junk to go wrong, especially if your the first not the second mouse on the cheese at the trap! Please update regularly, as I'm really fascinated to hear what you end up doing. I have to get the Dynaflow switched out on my 55 Century to at least get it moving under its own power before I dive into my upgrades. Good Luck, Greg

Funny you should mention Russ. That's the guy I'm buying the intake from! Dual 500CFM would be fine and has worked on other 322 engines, stock and rodded. Dynaflow might hold me back but I guess gas mileage really goes up with progressive linkage. I'm assuming the other sources I found that were weary of dual 500CFM carbs on a 322 were SBC  guys. I've been doing a lot of research, the CFM isn't additive so it's not 1000CFM since vacuum would drop with both carbs at WOT, more equaling out to 600-700 CFM and Russ suggests a 650CFM carb on a 322 on his website.

 

I think I am going to go for the carbs for now, just because the extra $1000 to get EFI might not be viable when I get to saving up. The carbs will be easier to purchase separately, also, versus dropping $1000 on one EFI throttle body. Plus, as any other consumer, I tend to spend more when I'm saving vs when I'm dumping cash every other paycheck.

[carbking]

If you wish to discuss it, give me a call.

 

573-392-7378 (9-4 Mon-Tues central time).

 

In the meantime, some food for thought: a pair of Buick Carter AFB's from the late 1950's will be much easier and less expensive to "dial in" than the e-clones. Or even Buick Carter WCFB's. And give some consideration to running solid linkage instead of progressive. Solid makes tuning more critical, but gives MUCH improved driveability, as well as marginally better fuel economy.

 

Jon.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Beemon said:

Funny you should mention Russ. That's the guy I'm buying the intake from! Dual 500CFM would be fine and has worked on other 322 engines, stock and rodded. Dynaflow might hold me back but I guess gas mileage really goes up with progressive linkage. I'm assuming the other sources I found that were weary of dual 500CFM carbs on a 322 were SBC  guys. I've been doing a lot of research, the CFM isn't additive so it's not 1000CFM since vacuum would drop with both carbs at WOT, more equaling out to 600-700 CFM and Russ suggests a 650CFM carb on a 322 on his website.

 

I think I am going to go for the carbs for now, just because the extra $1000 to get EFI might not be viable when I get to saving up. The carbs will be easier to purchase separately, also, versus dropping $1000 on one EFI throttle body. Plus, as any other consumer, I tend to spend more when I'm saving vs when I'm dumping cash every other paycheck.

Glad to see carbking giving some sage advice on carb selection! I have a "why-and" dual four barrel for my '55 322" inch project and some AFB four barrel carb cores from buying 364 core engines if you decide you need one or two. Glad you posed the question,. We got a two-fer answer, yay! Putting on later aluminum rockers for that extra lift 1.6 to one. Still cast iron on 57-58, aluminum later.  Every little thing, specially the no or low cost stuff! Recommend an "SA" book by David Visard How to build horsepower intakes and carbs. A really good read on that stuff. Explains intake issues in easy to understand text and includes low restriction air filter flow info. Hope some of this rambling helps!  Greg

[Beemon]

2 hours ago, carbking said:

If you wish to discuss it, give me a call.

 

573-392-7378 (9-4 Mon-Tues central time).

 

In the meantime, some food for thought: a pair of Buick Carter AFB's from the late 1950's will be much easier and less expensive to "dial in" than the e-clones. Or even Buick Carter WCFB's. And give some consideration to running solid linkage instead of progressive. Solid makes tuning more critical, but gives MUCH improved driveability, as well as marginally better fuel economy.

 

Jon.

Thanks Jon! This intake is not a WCFB bolt pattern, and I don't want to hassle with adapters. Russ had both the WCFB and AFB manifolds and I wanted the AFB one to go to EFI down the road. I thought really hard about the WCFB and get another Rochester 4G in the mean time to keep the gas pedal start, but the AFB bolt pattern IMO was more desirable for what I want to do in the long term. I'm curious, but why would solid be better than progressive? Wouldn't you want less gas in the engine on a Nailhead? I think I actually saw a thread you posted in on the HAMB that stated that Buick engines like less fuel off the line. I'm assuming the driveability comes from having both sides of the engine fueled equally. This is probably also a dumb question, but the gas pedal start was used upwards to 1960, correct? Either way, building this is going to be a fun experience. Admittedly the 322 is the first carbureted engine I've ever owned, and the 56 Buick alone is the first car I've ever legally owned in my name. Running the original Rochester has been quite a pain and the appealing thing to me about the Edelbrocks is that they're made to withstand today's fuels, an issue I've been struggling with on the Rochester. I know there are Buick alternatives out there, but the bolt and play Edelbrocks also don't require much to get them running.

 

1 hour ago, 2carb40 said:

Glad to see carbking giving some sage advice on carb selection! I have a "why-and" dual four barrel for my '55 322" inch project and some AFB four barrel carb cores from buying 364 core engines if you decide you need one or two. Glad you posed the question,. We got a two-fer answer, yay! Putting on later aluminum rockers for that extra lift 1.6 to one. Still cast iron on 57-58, aluminum later.  Every little thing, specially the no or low cost stuff! Recommend an "SA" book by David Visard How to build horsepower intakes and carbs. A really good read on that stuff. Explains intake issues in easy to understand text and includes low restriction air filter flow info. Hope some of this rambling helps!  Greg

Every little bit helps! I don't think I'll tune the 322 more than the 2x4 intake other than maybe tracking down those infamous Telesco roller rockers, if they're ever made again. Here is the manifold, btw:

 

I don't have it yet, and this was the only image I could get off the Ebay listing. I'll post another pic when I get it. Russ said in the listing that one of the ears was repaired and that he guarantees it to last. It also says "Say WHY-AND" on it. I'll keep in mind the carbs. As Carbking stated, the originals may be better to run and they are off a Buick. Do you know what CFM they pull by chance?

 

Also forgot to ask, but will I need more initial timing with 2x4 due to more gas being introduced into the engine? With the MSD package, burning fuel shouldn't be a problem...

Edited March 27, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[carbking]

Beemon - I am not aware of a manifold that would be referred to as a WCFB pattern, unless you are referring to the old "square" pattern. Many WCFB's also fit the "AFB" pattern:

 

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Four_barrel_mounting_flanges.htm

 

And while the "bolt and play Edelbrocks" may not require much to get them running, they will require MUCH MORE than either the Buick WCFB's or the Buick AFB's to get them running at optimal performance on a Buick. The next link was written for aftermarket carbs to Pontiac engines, but the exact same criteria applies to Buick engines:

 

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Pontiac_aftermarket_AFB.htm

 

And this link may help you understand why I suggest solid linkage:

 

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Multiplecarburetion.htm

 

Jon.

[Beemon]

Thanks for the info! So I should really be looking for a matched pair of 2507 or 2800 AFBs. Do you know what cfm they flow by chance? 

[MrEarl]

Beemon, I had been wondering if perhaps this is the eBay intake you were considering.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182061526425

 

I had one of these that I had planned to use on a 56 engine in a 54 hot rod I had been planning for years. I was going to use a pair of old school Stromberg Aeroquad 4A's on it as I wanted the car to be period correct to the years of 54-55. The Aeroquads were one of if not the first 4 bbl carbs and came out on the 52-54 Roadmasters. I ended up selling everything including rebuilt engine, dual exhaust headers,  dual point distributor and other high performance stuff to a guy who was going to install it in a 4 door 54 sleeper.

 

I had also acquired several more Aeroquads mostly for parts and sold this one on ebay.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-1954-Buick-Stromberg-Aeroquad-4A-Carburetor-1953-1955-1956-hot-rod-/161756878194

 

I may have some more in the barn if interested. But if you're not really interested in period hot rod cool correctness, the Carters may be a good choice.

My actual plan was to use the dual quads along with a mcculloch supercharger that came from a 55 Century estate wagon that had been used to pull mobile homes in it's day. I've still got the sc and it is going on the Century "some day".

Enjoying following your build and what all you are doing. Keep us posted. 

 

found a picture of my 56 engine before I sold it

 

 

 

[Beemon]

Yeah i was watching the Edmunds too. Like I said, I thought about going period or modern and ended up with the bigger bolt pattern manifold. There's multiple factors I'm considering right now. The first is that this being my only car, it will be my daily for at least two years when I transfer to the four year university next winter. The rochester I have now works well but still struggles with modern fuels even though it was built right. I drove the car all throughout the winter with minimal issues but it bogs on acceleration and going around corners with a lean stalls the car out occasionally, so that's why i was leaning towards the edelbrock carbs,  because they're made to handle modern fuels compared to a 40 year old afb.  Two or three years down the road I hope to be a full time engineer so I'll hopefully have the money to go to efi, which also needs the large bolt pattern. Plus this stuff is getting harder and harder to find unless you know where to look or have hookups, so cores are expensive and still need to be rebuilt. When I was thinking of replacing the 4gc, I was persuaded to keep it stock. Since then I've had it rebuilt three times, which exceeded the cost of a new edelbrock. If I got some vintage carbs for $400 cores and have them rebuilt for $200 each, then I'm in $1200 for vintage parts that need a lot of additives and varnish cleaning and hoping that the inside holds up from ethanol. The edelbrock carbs are about $400-500 and are made to withstand ethanol and also come with warranties if they do fail. I'm still keeping my options open but I have thought about this extensively. I won't have the cash for carbs until a month from now anyways. 

 

By the way,  happy Easter everyone! 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[carbking]

41 minutes ago, Beemon said:

Since then I've had it rebuilt three times

 

?????

 

WHY are you rebuilding the Rochester so often???

 

Properly rebuilt, it is easily good for 100,000 miles, assuming you change the air and fuel filters at recommended intervals.

 

One of the most reliable carbs ever produced!

 

The dual AFB's (genuine 40 year old Carters, NOT clones) have been on my shop truck UNTOUCHED for 18 years! And while the AFB is somewhat technically superior to the Rochester 4-GC, the Rochester 4-GC is MORE reliable than the Carter AFB; much more so than the clones.

 

Call me.

 

Jon.

Edited March 27, 2016 by carbking (see edit history)

[Beemon]

29 minutes ago, carbking said:

 

?????

 

WHY are you rebuilding the Rochester so often???

 

Properly rebuilt, it is easily good for 100,000 miles, assuming you change the air and fuel filters at recommended intervals.

 

One of the most reliable carbs ever produced!

 

The dual AFB's (genuine 40 year old Carters, NOT clones) have been on my shop truck UNTOUCHED for 18 years! And while the AFB is somewhat technically superior to the Rochester 4-GC, the Rochester 4-GC is MORE reliable than the Carter AFB; much more so than the clones.

 

Call me.

 

Jon.

The first time old gaskets were used and the rebuilder put the choke arm on backwards. I was oblivious, but the choke never fully opened so I was having rough low idles. The second time fixed the first time, also the check ball in the ignition switch was missing and the guy (different guy) said he was stumped as to how I was starting the car without it. The third time I had to have it rebuilt because part of the interior flaked off and clogged an idle circuit? That's what they told me anyways. It had been on a shelf in my grandfather's basement since the early 80s and his basement flooded every heavy rain so it was introduced to a lot of moisture that lingered and molded. The rebuilder (third) said it could have damaged the copper idle circuits. I'm completely oblivious. This is my first car lol. I'll give a call tomorrow, I'm working late tonight.

[Beemon]

CarbKing, I forgot to ask when I called, but if I used 2 Rochesters, would they have to be machined or would the only type of setup required be tuning in the idle screws?

[carbking]

Either the Rochesters or WCFB's would need the factory patch to eliminate the stalling on left-hand turns. If using dual carbs, the patch would need to be made on both carbs.

 

Jon.

[NTX5467]

Quote

 

(Not sure why ANY engine would like "over-carburetion"??)

 

In some of David Vizard's other books, he mentions the various bottlenecks in the engine design and "dress" items.  IF you start with the capability of getting more air flow into the engine, then the next thing downstream that can hold things back is the port flow, then intake valve sizing, then exhaust valve sizing, then exhaust port flow, then exhaust manifolding, and then exhaust system sizing/flow.  That's working from "intake" to "end of the tail pipe", but you can work in the opposite direction, too.  In that mix is also camshaft "area under the curve" considerations.  Therefore, "over-carburetion" is "over-kill", UNLESS the rest of the air processing system is upgraded to handle the additional potential air flow.

 

To me, in the Nailhead, there are several bottlenecks in air flow, with some Band-Aid fixes to help things along.  With the smaller valves, camshaft timing events will need to be longer to help compensate for the reduced total air flow in the ports.  This is a balancing act!  Remember the posts about the 1959 Buick V-8s having a "rough idle"?  A little too much cam.

 

AND, considering that almost all of the 2x4bbl intakes for a Nailhead were designed back when "looks" equated to "air flow" (before anybody ever flow-benched an intake manifold), Those "good looking ports" might not flow very well.  Pontiac engineers used round ports on a higher-level RamAir GTO engine, as round ports were supposed to flow best, but when the heads were flow benched, they didn't flow any better than the "next level down" rectangular port heads did.  What this equates to is "flow equality among the cylinders".  EACH cylinder needs to get an equal amount of air, but inefficient manifolding stymies that from happening.  With factory intakes not always being the best in that respect.  Some aftermarket items might look better, but not be that much better, either.

 

Back then, the allure of "one venture for each cylinder" was always associated with "power" and "racing".  But also consider that most of the 4bbls, back then, did good to flow 450cfm.  More is better, but to a point.

 

As almost every newer engine proves, air flow THROUGH the cylinder heads is one of the main routes to increased horsepower without needing the band aid fixes of additional cam timing.  Unfortunately, such bottlenecks are standard equipment on  Nailheads.  BUT all is not lost!  If the head flow might hinder great gobs of horsepower at over 5000rpm, then configure the motor to do best in the meat of the torque curve, which is where the smaller ports/valves are doing their job to increase port velocity and, possibly, "cylinder filling"!  It's also that torque which you feel "off idle" and "mid-range", NOT horsepower!  It's also torque which tests the interface between tire rubber and pavement, not horsepower at 5000rpm!

 

Using "high ratio" rocker arms is another band aid fix that, generally, does not produce enough extra power to justify the additional stress on the valvetrain, in my orientation.  IF you put a dial indicator at the end of the pushrod, you'll quickly see that max valve lift occurs for about 2 degrees of crankshaft rotation on a normal, OEM-style cam.  When I did that with a Comp Cams 268 cam, the max lift occurred for about 10 degrees of crank rotation, plus their assymetrical lobe configuration (open quick, hold open, close slowly).  Even going to a roller cam can be beneficial, due to the different "valve lift area under the curve" situation.  Roller cam kits are expensive, compared to normal cams, but with the money you're considering spending, it all fits.

 

Finding a roller cam with close-to-stock timing specs might be tricky, though.  Without it being a full-race type camshaft and the wild specs they had.

 

ALSO, check out the newer Edelbrock "fuel sump" fuel pump!  NO need for a special fuel tank!  The items you mentioned are definitely good stuff (Stealth pump and such) but all that is more $$$$.

 

I'm not sure about the Holley Sniper system you mention, but I'll check on it for my own research.

 

Over the years, I've often thought about "upgrading" older V-8s (1950-60s) with modern items.  Better camshafts, better ignitions, newer-design spark plugs, better plug wires, better intake manifolds, more recent carbs, and now self-learning EFI (which has been out for over three years, from various manufacturers!). AND an evolving understanding of what the various engine designers were trying to accomplish in what they did and HOW they did it!!  In many cases, they were on the right track, but didn't fully get to where things later got to.  Plus, back then, it was too easy to add cubic inches rather than further refine some orientations and concepts, especially combustion chamber dynamics!

 

And, as things have evolved, there are many 1x4bbl intakes that make as much horsepower as the older-design 2x4bbl intakes with LESS total carb cfm, cost, and complexity.  Finding one for a 322 Nailhead might be another trick.  I'll also admit that I don't know what, if any, items from the later 364s and 401s might be "factory based upgrades" for your earlier 322.  Although looking at what the later engines had might be a guide for what to look for in your 322.

 

There is a lot of neat technology in the Buick Nailhead design, but leveraging that with modern upgrades will be the key to a Better Buick Nailhead and "performance" that is real rather than cosmetic.

 

NTX5467  

[SpecialEducation]

Well, here's my vote: FITech

 

You've got a Century, so you've already got a 4bbl manifold, right?  Fab a simple adapter plate and you are rolling...

 

I've been eyeballing aftermarket FI options for a long time for various applications and FITech has some of the coolest stuff for the money that I've seen.  I've still got some applications where I lean to MegaSquirt, but for converting a carb'd V-8 to FI, I think FITech gives the most bang for the buck. The FITech is self learning and self contained for a clean, simple installation.  If that's not enough, look at the way they inject in a swirl for superb atomization in this video.  Pretty cool stuff.

 

I have my doubts that you are going to see much advantage to a multi-carb setup over this, and besides, you are on borrowed time on your rear end so you want to be nice to it.  Speaking of which, if you are looking for more pep out of the car, you should be shopping for a 3.9:1 rear out of a Synchromesh Special.  You'll take a bit of an economy hit, but if you are talking about multi-carb setups, you've already written off economy anyway.  Amiright?

[Beemon]

For the most part, yes. But I've heard dual quad can go both ways when done up properly. I've seen FiTech and they look good, but Holley did the swirl atomization first with the annular discharge rings on the Terminator and now with the new Sniper coming out that can do more than the FiTech for the same price, that's the way to go IMO. Built in internal fuel regulator, all internal with no extra CPU mounting block. Plus, Holley just recently acquired MSD in the last year, so their new FI throttle bodies are just as good as using a controlled timing feature as the MSD Atomic. I really think it was their way of shutting down FiTech, but you can't argue with what they're selling, it basically kills all the extra crap that still makes converting a hassle. Still need two fuel lines, but that's not that big of a deal.

 

As far as the 3.91 gears... probably wishful thinking lol.

 

I found out what type of air cleaners I want to use... 6.5" air cleaner base with a Harley-Davidson oval air cleaner cover. They kind of look like the 57+ Mopar dual filters so I think it fits the era pretty well.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[carbking]

4 hours ago, SpecialEducation said:

 

 

..... Speaking of which, if you are looking for more pep out of the car, you should be shopping for a 3.9:1 rear out of a Synchromesh Special.  You'll take a bit of an economy hit, but if you are talking about multi-carb setups, you've already written off economy anyway.  Amiright?

 

Dual quads, IF PROPERLY SIZED AND CALIBRATED, and driven in a reasonably same manner, will get as good OR BETTER fuel economy than any other style of carburetion on a V-8.

 

Have sold/set up dozens of dual quads that produced both more power AND better economy than what they replaced. Have replaced single 2-barrels, single 4-barrels, and tripower. The keys are (1) proper selection of carburetor size, (2) proper calibration of the carburetors FOR THE SPECIFIC APPLICATION, and (3) solid linkage NOT progressive.

 

Jon.

[Beemon]

Stopped by the local vintage junkyard, all they had was a 1955 carter wcfb, the tag was still on it. The 56 had the manifold and carb removed a long time ago. If o can find another 55 wcfb, then I'm set but I'd rather stick with the 56 rochester. Search continues, found a yard in cali but it's a 50/50 rochester or carter. If it's a carter, I still need to find a 56 because again 56 broke the mold and is one year... 

 

Meanwhile, the shop received the wrong differential bearing kit so no rush at all. 

[NTX5467]

Holley and MSD?  Not quite what I heard, on the MSD side as MSD and Mallory are merging their lines to drop duplicated products (dropping Mallory, generally),  Personally, if an MSD product is not something which existed prior to "the joining", I'd be suspicious of it.  One of the ways in which product reputations get "diluted", by observation.  Why I bought a Pertronix HEI replacement rather than an MSD..Used to be that all MSD ignitions were "multi-strike below 3000rpm", but it's not that way anymore!  READ CAREFULLY the product descriptions!!! 

 

Key to any EFI is a "clean" ignition signal to the FI ECU.  I believe that the annual discharge venture was first used on the Holley Dominator carb?  Later adapted to another Holley 4bbl?  But the thing that was interesting was that IF the annular discharge venture was such a neat thing, then why not put it on their hot street carbs rather than just race-oriented carbs?

 

In some cases, the "injectors" perform the function of all of the metering sections of the carb, with the injectors hooked to some sort of venture.  In others, the injectors of the TBI-orientation are fully in the air flow of the throttle bore.  Others "squirt" below the throttle plates?  IF fhey all atomize the fuel equally well, then no performance advance between them, in theory.  Just different companies doing things differently.

 

A friend was one of the lucky ones to get a 2014 COPO Camaro race car.  It came with the Holley Terminator EFI system.  I heard of some guys taking their cars directly to the drag strip and they ran credibly.  Mike's never did run that good, up front, so he and the Holley rep worked together to get things sorted out.  Not sure why his didn't work as others did, but I'm not sure what they changed, either.

 

Why not slide a 401 in place of the 322?  At least then, you'll have enough engine under the multi-carb setup you desire which can really use that extra air flow.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

1 hour ago, NTX5467 said:

Why not slide a 401 in place of the 322?  At least then, you'll have enough engine under the multi-carb setup you desire which can really use that extra air flow.

 

I like the 322, it came with the car and I spent $4200 to rebuild it. I've more or less been convinced to find a twin Rochester 4GC to keep the car at peak condition. I had an extensive chat with CarbKing over the whole carburetion process and he went into quite a lot of detail about why there wasn't a single carb for every engine to make a long story short. Besides, if I find a twin Rochester, then I can take the starter switch out of the second carb and hit the computer in the drafting lab and maybe engineer a module to bolt it on and hook up to a throttle arm to get a gas pedal start without a stock carb. Plus using information that I've gathered from Russ Martin, the 322 is supposedly capable of sustaining 650CFM. Two old Rochesters in a dual quad setup would have approximately 1.5% peak capacity (according to CarbKing) of one of the carburetors, where both carbs are estimated around 450CFM, then the total CFM at WOT would be around 675CFM. Because I'm using adapter spacers, due to Bernoulli's Equation, the larger bore holes at the bottom of the plate will decrease flow velocity, or CFM so to speak. If 450CFM is coming through a bore size of 1.5" (WCFB) and leaving through a bore size of 1.685" (AFB), then the resulting would be 401CFM. So if I'm approximately flowing 401*1.5=601CFM, then that's still an increase in peak performance, albeit at a decrease in efficiency of about 11%. Of course this is all theoretical, peak performance, excluding gravity in a longer atomization cycle due to the spacer, etc, but I don't think it will be a huge issue.

 

Also here's a link to the Holley/MSD merger: https://www.holley.com/news/articles/holley_performance_products_acquires_msd_group/

Self learning EFI is in a strange place right now, where I believe it will become diluted really quickly. There's only so much you can do to increase throttle body designs from the 1980s before you reach a limit where tapping an intake manifold is the solution. I'm still following it with great care and interest, but as CarbKing eloquently put it, any gains to an EFI system over the system engineered for the car may only yield a mild 3% increase in efficiency.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Beemon]

In my spare time, I do some video game work as a hobby. It kind of helps me to keep up with CAD work since there was only one class offered at the college. I came up with this mock-up design for a remote vacuum switch, very rough draft.

 

 

As I progress, the body of the unit should mount any 1956 starter switch housing. I want to at some point make all of the parts for it using the 3D printer in the lab, the resin paste is good up to 600*, which is more than enough to resist melting from a hot engine. A hole would be drilled in the front for a vacuum fitting to pull the ball up into the upper channel while the lower channel would be vented. A seat will be made for an O-ring to seal the ball against. The lever shaft, since actuated with the throttle arm originally on the carburetor, would be actuated by a clevis with an adjustable linkage. I'm thinking it would mount on the rear carburetor stud closes to the throttle linkage so it can be tied to the throttle linkage on the carburetor directly. This setup would allow anyone who has a faulty switch or a new carburetor to have a gas pedal start. I really think there would be a market for this, probably only for non-purist cars and street rodders.

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

The original Bendix ElectroJector unit was prototyped in a Buick V-8 (unit in the front floorboard, as a I understand it, with vacuum tubes).  So it might be interesting to see what it might take to adapt a Rochester RamJet  (NOT what's now sold as "RamJet") fuel injection system from a '65 Corvette 327 to a Nailhead Buick V-8.  BUT other than the basic architectural adaptations, finding somebody to calibrate it for the Buick's fuel curve might be problematic.  And they were worth only 10 horsepower (factory rating) than a 700+ cfm Holley carb.  Although I have read of some which got 20+mpg with a 4.56 gear, on the highway (but some Corvettes tended to get better mpg due to their aerodynamics).  I've got an old Peterson book on Chevy performance, from about 1962, which explained that system, in detail, but I never did read that chapter.  A good carburetion/manifold combination, well-finessed, can be had much less expensively and something that more people can work on and understand.

 

Key thing is manifolding mixture distribution and such, PLUS keeping the atomized fuel/air mixture "in suspension" as it travels into the combustion chamber.  And THAT is a whole 'nuther subject!

 

Keep us posted on your progress, please.

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

A little bit of an update:

 

I probably spent hours trying to find an air filter base for the small carb air horn, with little to no success. Well I went into the lab and whipped up some models. The carb adapter I purchased was garbage, the holes don't even match up so I sent them back and also made my own. These will be printed with ABS plastic, so they should withstand the intake ambient temperatures.

 

The cost for printing is about ~$2.00 per cubic inch, so everything should run me about $50-60, which I'm okay with considering they are of my own design. The carb base is countersunk on the inside holes on the bottom side. The air cleaner assembly was made using dimensions to fit NAPA part #2110 (I might have to re-check that one). I haven't printed anything yet because I don't have dimensions for under the hood from the top of the intake to the top of the hood. All dimensions are saved in the program to be easily modified based on heigh, filter, etc., so I could really print anything for any application so long as it fits within a 12x12" square. The machines at school are good up to 3-5 decimal places (two different machines) so I'll be honing the bores, too. The carb spacer/adapter is .5" thick, the bottom of the air cleaner is 1" tall and the top is .375" tall. If it doesn't fit due to height clearances, I'm thinking of either halving the bottom height or converting it to a drop style filter.

 

Anyways, just wanted to post an update. When I get them printed and have $ values, I'll post those up as well just in case anyone wants some custom elements.

[NTX5467]

A drop-base air filter is fine for using a taller air filter element, but it doesn't change the relationship between the air cleaner horn + adapter and the bottom of the hood, NOT to forget the thickness of the thin gaskets under the carb adapter and the under the carburetor, in that total height "build dimension".  OR the length of the air cleaner studs.

 

There should also be enough space between the top of the air cleaner and the carb air horn, such that as the air changes directions and enters the carb air horn, additional turbulence isn't a flow hindrance.  There used to be a "plug" that went into the air horns of the Holley 4160s that smoothed the air flow and resulted in about a 10 horsepower gain, or something like that.  Enough power improvement to make the price worth it, BUT not sure how it worked on a street-driven car at normal rpm levels.

 

If you look at an OEM GM open element air cleaner, ala 1967 Corvette, you'll see that the base is dropped as low as it can, with appropriate "clearance humps" for the integral automatic choke coil, for example.  Plus a pcv tube that takes a wire mesh flame arrester.  Compared to the aftermarket "knock-off" which look similar, the GM item sits an additional inch lower than the aftermarket versions, allowing a taller air filter element (3", if I remember correctly).  The aftermarkets use a 2" tall filter element.

 

In your carb-to-hood underside measurements, you might allow for 2" of clearance with the hood.  This can allow for engine movement "under torque", just in case.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Thanks for the heads up, I'll look into those and see if I can come up with something interesting. The cap can be changed because it's going under another face, it just needs the cap for a uniform seal on the filter. This specific filter is also 3" tall. Funny you mention 2" of clearance, the stock air cleaner left an imprint in the hood insulation and I think it's no more than an inch thick so I would say the stock filter is within a half inch of the hood. 

 

I got the call on my way to work the car was ready so I picked it up and it's sitting out in the parking lot now. Before I do anything I have to pull the power steering pump, but I'll at least be able to see if it all fits. The rear end isn't so noisy any more but I had to reuse the carrier bearings, I guess they're now obsolete and I could only find one... doesn't do me any good lol. Makes me wonder what these guys are selling on ebay for a fully repaired third member if the bearings and gears arent in production anymore...

 

Also thinking about whether or not to keep the intake aluminum or engine green...

 

Edit: You know, speaking of hood clearance and air filters, I'm really glad the insulation touches the top of the air cleaner. I've accidentally left wrenches, screw drivers and other things up there only to open the hood and say "Oh that's where I left that!" After  I dropped the Buick off, I couldn't find my Jeep keys, so I had to use the spares. I was more than certain I just left them in the Buick. Popped the hood today at work just because I wanted to look at the engine I've been missing for nearly a month now and there were the keys, like I had just opened a present, sitting right in the middle of the air cleaner where the wing nut is. I'm going to miss that.

 

In regards to the plug that fits over the Holley carburetors, I'm assuming you're talking about this? If so, I don't see any issue making something similar. Would be interesting to become a supplier of custom, vintage carburetor speed parts.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Yep, "StubStack".

 

Which color you might choose could be determined by just what you want people to look at or "hide".  For example, when I change the intake on my Camaro to the GM Performance Parts (aka early Z/28 updated for the ZZ3 crate motor), if I want people to know what's under there, then leaving it "aluminum" can be a status symbol of sorts, but if I want to "hide it", then making it "Chevy Blue" would be the alternative.  But with the L98 aluminum heads, unpainted, it'd probably look more uniform in "aluminum".  Your judgment call.

 

Thanks for the updates!

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Here's another update, got my prototype air cleaner back from the lab. Test fit it on the car, and it fit like a glove. A pretty proud moment for me. Seals up good. I also didn't go cheap like everyone else does on the market - the base is as thick as the carb air cleaner flange so the seal surface of the gasket will be there. It's also shorter than I expected. The two intake manifolds are about the same size and I'll have to end up using that half inch adapter plate, so I'll have plenty of room under the hood. I just need to make smaller cleaner mount studs now. Of course here are the pictures.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to coat the parts with a resin "case hardener" and sand them before painting. The printer was good up to three decimal places, so they aren't perfectly smooth as evident from the first picture. The air cleaner cover I found was off of an old Harley. I got the idea while looking for interesting air cleaners, saw them, and they reminded me of old Mopar dual quads. I'm not one for flair under the hood, but I think they'll look good. After school tomorrow, I'm going to stop by Home Depot and look for some heim joints (their website lists them but that's not always the case). I've been thinking about where to hang the ignition coil, too. I'm not one for putting holes in the car, so I think I'm going to hang it from the ballast resistor mount. Since I went with the Pertronix, the ballast resistor is useless at this point anyways. I'm getting pretty excited now, the only hard thing I'm waiting on is the carb rebuild kit for the second carb. I think I might go with a 2" filter instead of the 3" so the cover doesn't have a bit of filter exposed below it, but I'll pass judgement after it's on the car.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Looks pretty dang good!!  Congrats on a successful venture!!

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Thanks!

 

The carb kit arrived today! I'm going to begin tear down of the second carb here shortly. I hear boiling in 4:1 water and lemon juice works pretty well, but I'm always skeptical about these home made concoctions being passed around on the internet. I'm also not really interested in dipping in a corrosive acid dip that can ruin internals/skin and give me lung problems, so any tips on cleaning out there? I won't be able to give Carb King a ring for another week, in hind sight I should have asked first.

 

I was really bummed out that things were going so slow for the build at the moment, but it's really picked up some speed now. I get paid again this coming Friday, so I'll be putting in for another carb rebuild kit. I figure if I can get this carb rebuilt and on the car by Monday, and it's running great, then I'm hoping it runs better than what I have now. I've had this carb looked over by three different people in it's rebirth and it always seems to have a problem or vacuum leak. I swear the check ball in the ignition circuit is supposed to seal the vacuum from leaking out but it sucks air on mine all the time... these little things that have me wondering if it was put together correctly in the three times it was gone over.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Beemon said:

Thanks!

 

The carb kit arrived today! I'm going to begin tear down of the second carb here shortly. I hear boiling in 4:1 water and lemon juice works pretty well, but I'm always skeptical about these home made concoctions being passed around on the internet. I'm also not really interested in dipping in a corrosive acid dip that can ruin internals/skin and give me lung problems, so any tips on cleaning out there? I won't be able to give Carb King a ring for another week, in hind sight I should have asked first.

 

I was really bummed out that things were going so slow for the build at the moment, but it's really picked up some speed now. I get paid again this coming Friday, so I'll be putting in for another carb rebuild kit. I figure if I can get this carb rebuilt and on the car by Monday, and it's running great, then I'm hoping it runs better than what I have now. I've had this carb looked over by three different people in it's rebirth and it always seems to have a problem or vacuum leak. I swear the check ball in the ignition circuit is supposed to seal the vacuum from leaking out but it sucks air on mine all the time... these little things that have me wondering if it was put together correctly in the three times it was gone over.

Highly recommend you try Evap o Rust approx 22.00\gal most auto and harbor freight stores. Don't usually advocate for products, but this one works and nondestuctive. Not as economical, but they sell qts. If you want to try some. Dicast windshield wiper transmissions came out looking buffed and the little drive chain parts on back looked like new, where they had been just a ball of rust from sitting around in humid storage. Was able to get stuck mechanism moving very easily!

 

 

[Beemon]

Thanks for the tip! I purchased an HF sonic cleaner so I was going to try that out before dipping in anything. Read a lot of good things about sonic cleaning and the HF unit was $60 + a two year warranty. If it doesn't work out, then my mom has a decent jewelery cleaner for mothers day (jokes of course, it already broke... good thing it has a warranty...)

Edited April 28, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Beemon]

I put this off a really long time because I had been dealing with other issues, namely ignition and oiling. However, I am now back on track for this mod!

 

 

Pay no attention to the messy garage, lol. I finally got around to re-doing the carburetor that came with my Buick, so now the one from Mr. Earl is on the manifold after an extensive test pilot phase. As soon as the other carb passes it's idle hiccup (driver circuit has a clog since the idle screw does nothing), the mod is ready to go! My next days off are Thursday and Friday, so hoping everything goes well, Thursday night I'll be moving again.

[Beemon]

Quite a bit of a delay today. The girlfriend and I have the same days off, so if I don't treat her out, there's hell to pay... lol

 

Could have swapped manifolds tonight, but it was dark and I didn't want to fudge anything.

 

The linkage is a generic Mr. Gasket and it's setup ready to go. I had to source new vacuum fittings for the intake and a plug for the front vacuum advance fitting. The carb up front is the carb I recieved from Mr. Earl, vs the one behind it being my original. Kind of a nice contrast of "kept dry in the basement" vs. "from the field" or wherever it came from. I painted my custom air cleaners, though I wish I had used a filler primer first, they didn't fill as much as I thought they would. I also bought that fancy Niccop stuff from NAPA to do the fuel lines with. I didn't want to do rubber lines because to me that didn't feel right. You look at all the old multi-carb vehicles from the 50s and they all have steel lines. From that fitting to the pump will be a rubber line with a plastic in-line filter for now. I'm waiting on a glass bowl filter to mount at the end and then it's just a matter of bending the last bit of tubing to the pump. Depending on how well the filter holds up with the metal lines, I may have to fashion a hangar for it off the front carb. Getting pretty excited now. I ran both carbs by themselves to get their optimal idle mixture, it was somewhere between 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 turns. About all I should need to do is bend a vacuum wiper line and a power brake line and we're golden.

 

I'm still debating how I'm going to do the ignition coil, but most likely it will hang off the back of the manifold standing up off one of the manifold to head bolts. I'm also worried about the road draft tube, but the back of the manifold looks like it has a cut out for it. Tomorrow's the day!

 

You know, I just realized you never see too many custom dual quads that utilize Rochester carbs unless it's an OEM thing.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Beemon]

 

Sorry for the first picture, it was the only one I had of the tach. A steady 600 RPM, no roughness to the idle at all. I was actually impressed with myself that I was even able to accomplish all this. I still need to add the choke tubes, but no drips or anything off the fuel rails. Took it for a spin, the driveability of the car has dramatically improved. My dad kept telling me my gas mileage will suffer now, even after I explained to him that the two carbs run off the same principle of one carb as long as you don't dip into the secondaries and drive it like normal, but alas... Still was fun to take it on it's maiden voyage.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Benjammin1991/videos/10154992363360830/

 

A quick video of the drive. My next investment is a tachometer. Pay no attention to my noisy rear end... that was a different subject all in its own.

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

(Lots of tall trees viewed through that Panoramic Windshield!)

 

 Congrats on getting things done as well as you have!  We're all proud of your accomplishment! 

 

NTX5467