Dave@Moon need pictures of "Lost Souls'

[michel88]

Dave. I recently posted in the Packard forum: "Packard Darrin Modified-Why" and from the responses I don't think some members realize how many true classics have fallen victim to Hot Rodding. I tried to retrieve your post "Lost Souls" but it is not available. Could you post some of the really rare classics especially Packards into the Packard forum that have been lost to Hot Rodders? Thanks!

[TG57Roadmaster]

Woody,

Can't help you out with Packards, but this 1937 Roadmaster 80C Convertible Sedan (one of 1,155) was a true, sad loss. To rodders. And not even "good" rodders. After discovering it some years ago in Pageland, SC, I tried for four years to get the over-the-road truck driver to part with it; notified <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> my well-heeled friends, to no avail.

Sure it needed a everything, but was a <span style="font-weight: bold">complete</span> car and quite solid. It finally showed up at Charlotte AutoFair about three seasons ago, totally [censored] up, so much so that I couldn't even bear to take a picture of it. I didn't want my camera to self-immolate!

TG

[Rawja]

Michel, get ready for an avalanche! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Clipper47]

Woody, Why would you want to torture us? There is nothing anyone can do to prevent the desecration of this history. As aptly said in the Packard forum; It's like Andy Warhol touching up the Mona Lisa( or worse since Andy wasn't a bad painter). <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Dave@Moon]

Woody, I had something like 150 photos on that thread. It was in the Misc. Chat section (then called Rants and Raves), where I put it myself so that it wouldn't embarass the AACA. Those threads now disappear after 45 days. I don't know if they can recall them or not, but possibly one of the moderators could re-post the thread.

I got most of those photos from 2 or 3 web sites after searching on Yahoo usiing the terms <span style="font-style: italic">Packard</span> (or whichever marque) <span style="font-style: italic">+"hot rod"</span> or <span style="font-style: italic">Packard +"street rod"</span>. (The quotes only serve to limit the search to sites where those two words appear together.)

Packards were by far the most popular among the Full Classic streetrodders, and after a while I was passing up all but the open-body coachwork cars to keep the thread from being an all-Packard show.

I'll post some here as I can if the old thread can't be recalled downstairs when I have some time.

[bubba]

This is a very sore subject with me. I agree with 1937hd45 that some cars that are too far gone to do a

true restoration may become a basis for a rod because it would be cost prohibitive otherwise. What is happening

now, however, is that fully restored cars are now going under the knife. Take a 75K+ classic convert coupe, put chrome all over the engine, and sell it at BJ for half a mill. Fords or Chevys just don't cut it anymore.

[TG57Roadmaster]

If I had a nickel for every time folks walked past my car, admiring it, then saying, "Oh, Honey, look...it's a four door...," and scrambling away as if from some leper...

I could buy <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> the tarted-up Packards, restore 'em, put 'em up for sale, and be out a [censored]-load of nickels!

TG

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I agree with 1937hd45 that some cars that are too far gone to do a

true restoration may become a basis for a rod because it would be cost prohibitive otherwise. ...</div></div>

That is what is going to happen to a 1939 Dodge that we bought years ago. The woodgraining alone would be worth more than the whole car. As much as we can it will be restored back to correct specs. The engine is already restore totally correctly. But where the cost would be more than the car could ever hope to bring we will alter things like paint color and tires and wheels. We will add modern seatbelts for safety and a modern radio will be hidden in the glove box.

We will not do anything to the car to destroy the integrity of it, but we will be able to get it on the road to enjoy it at a cost that we can afford. Later someone else can finish off the correct restoration if they want to. A four-door family car like this one will never be high on the collectable list. But we can have a lot of fun with it.

[Guest JT]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently posted in the Packard forum: "Packard Darrin Modified-Why" and from the responses I don't think some members realize how many true classics have fallen victim to Hot Rodding. </div></div>

Woody, I think most here agree with you but what can you really do about it?

I just read on another site about a guy selling parts from a restored car because he wanted to "update" it. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> This happens all the time, just watch ebay and see parts for sale from some of these cars. It's sickening and the people that do this are fools in my opinion but..

Maybe it's time for us all to send a contribution to our favorite museum or buy some more old cars <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest JT]

That's great that parts off a restored car are made available for those of us needing them (ebay, etc.) but it still seems senseless destroying a [color:"red"]restored car <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[1937hd45]

Ask yourself why the guy SOLD the restored car. Chances are real good he needed the money for some reason. ANYTHING you put up for sale is a commodity, first guy with the cash gets it.

[Guest JT]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">first guy with the cash gets it </div></div>

Yep, you're right. He could set it on fire if he wanted.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">first guy with the cash gets it </div></div>

Yep, you're right. He could set it on fire if he wanted. </div></div>

There are strong rumors in the stamp collector community that have persisted for 80 years that exactly this happened to the most valuable stamp in existence. It's widely believed that the then owner of the stamp, a 1 cent British Guiana black on magenta today valued at nearly $1 million (only one copy remains in existence), privately and discreetly purchased a newly discovered second copy in the late 1920s. (He'd purchased the first stamp in 1922 for $36,000.)

Upon the completion of the transaction the seller reputedly told the buyer "<span style="font-style: italic">Congratulations, you're now the owner of the only two such stamps in existence."</span> The buyer then lit a cigar, and burnt the stamp he'd just purchased for many thousands of dollars saying "<span style="font-style: italic">You mean the only <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span>.</span>"

It was never proven that this was done, but to this day the individual is reviled by many if not all stamp collectors for this.

There are any number of limited run collector cars that could just as easily see this fate. What would the last Daytona Cobra be worth if the rest were to meet an unfortunate fate? Maybe there are too many '33 Silver Arrows around to make owning one worthwhile to someone.

I wonder what the last non-V10 powered '41 Newport will be worth?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave. I recently posted in the Packard forum: "Packard Darrin Modified-Why" and from the responses I don't think some members realize how many true classics have fallen victim to Hot Rodding. I tried to retrieve your post "Lost Souls" but it is not available. Could you post some of the really rare classics especially Packards into the Packard forum that have been lost to Hot Rodders? Thanks! </div></div>

I could probably post dozens of these in one night.

But what would it prove? Street rodding has become a competitive sport, where every guy has to top the last one in outrageousness. If you don't want to be outrageous in style, you can be outrageous in content. Street rodding rare restored antiques makes financial sense and satisfys the desire to be the new biggest guy on the block (until the next one). This has been shown enough already. How many big-block Lincoln KB's do you really want to see anyway?

What makes me mad is the presumption that street rodding these cars is the only way to make them road-worthy. It's almost a mantra to this obsession that you can't drive an antique but you can a street rod. In the mean time many of them are modified to within a millimeter of being unstreetable themselves.

We brought this on ourselves by not driving our cars enough in public view.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We brought this on ourselves by not driving our cars enough in public view. </div></div>

Maybe, but the obsession with pointing out what is "Wrong" with a vehicle is a bigger turn off.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Maybe, but the obsession with pointing out what is "Wrong" with a vehicle is a bigger turn off. </div></div>

But inescapable. You're on a web site created by the people who invented <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">car judging</span></span>. Your buddies down at the Goodguys show just adopted it from us.

What the heck else could you <span style="font-style: italic">possibly</span> expect? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Clipper47]

Quote: What makes me mad is the presumption that street rodding these cars is the only way to make them road-worthy. It's almost a mantra to this obsession that you can't drive an antique but you can a street rod. In the mean time many of them are modified to within a millimeter of being unstreetable themselves

I agree that this seems to be the justification for many street rodders. I get that remark constantly. Funny how us old guys like me can remember crossing the country as kids in 1934 Fords etc. let alone Packards and not having any problems along the way.

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">make them road-worthy </div></div>

Dave, Hate to start a stink, but the correct phrase is <span style="font-weight: bold">riding in style</span>!

Cruising down the road, A/C blasting, Tunes blasting, Looking cool on my stool! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't kill the messenger! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[michel88]

Or you could be driving down a quiet country road enjoying the sights and sounds of a vintage car, just the way you remember when you drove them forty some years ago. I really don't need to "seen" in the car to enjoy it. Just my humble opinion. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[R W Burgess]

I agree. Just reporting what I see and hear.

Wayne

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder what the last non-V10 powered '41 Newport will be worth? </div></div>

Do you think the light blue one with the straight 8 Packard engine is worth a lot less than the others now? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">make them road-worthy </div></div>

Dave, Hate to start a stink, but the correct phrase is <span style="font-weight: bold">riding in style</span>!

Cruising down the road, A/C blasting, Tunes blasting, Looking cool on my stool! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't kill the messenger! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Wayne </div></div>

That's what I used to think. But in creating that <span style="font-style: italic">Lost Souls</span> thread I came accross dozens and dozens of rod descriptions in which it was implicit that the car in stock form <span style="text-decoration: underline">could not</span> be driven on what were often called "modern roads". And that total came from looking strictly for rods made out of rare and Full Classic iron. To call it a commonly held belief among street rodders would be a drastic understatement.

Also year of manufacture simply didn't enter into the thinking. I saw those exact words used to describe a '56 Lincoln Mark II and a Studebaker Avanti, and a similar description used for a late '60s muscle car (I don't remember which, it wasn't rare enough for me to note it on the thread). It's not as if we're dealing with frustrated Brighton Run contestants here.

I understand wanting to "ride in style". That's the very concept I used to make the analogy with people who dress up in Timberland hiking gear to go to the mall in that old thread (their stuff is really big with the mall punks right now). There's a difference between emulating style and co-opting it in a denigrating manner. You can wear a faux-ocelot fur coat to celebrate the beauty of nature, or you can consume that beauty by killing a bunch of ocelots and hanging their furs on your body--celebrating nothing but yourself.

Nobody <span style="text-decoration: underline">needs</span> to destroy irreplaceable and/or previously restored rare iron to make a stylish ride in rod-dom. In fact it often comes off (to my eye) as a cheap cop-out of a short cut anyway. Liking what antiques look like and not appreciating them for what they are (such as they're being actually drivable machines) is a dangerous superficial attitude, which I think is bad for both automotive communities. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[TG57Roadmaster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">(to my eye)</span> </div></div> is really all that needs to be said, as we are all just caretakers of what we've amassed in life. In the Grand Scheme, we possess, for a time, but never truly "own" anything. Think of Harrah's Collection, Henry Austin Clark, Jr's. Library or Faberge Imperial Easter Eggs.

It would be great if everyone had entered this hobby when there were distinct delineations;

<span style="font-weight: bold">Antiques

Classics

Milestones

Special Interest/Collectibles

Muscle Cars

Used Cars

classics

Rods/Customs</span>

Put 'em in any order that suits you, as <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">alone</span> see them, want them, get them, and ultimately, lose them. Whenever this endless debate rages, I'm constantly reminded by, and take solace in, two points made by mentors early in life.

My friend Stan in Florida once tried to start up a "Collector Car" lot. One day a tire-kicker was admiring one of his offerings and said, "My Daddy used to have one <span style="font-style: italic">just</span> like this, but it was <span style="font-style: italic">yellow</span> and it was a <span style="font-weight: bold">Ford</span>".

All he saw was a car that reminded him of something from his past.

<span style="font-style: italic">His</span> past. Should he be chastised for not knowing the difference?

Another friend, Floyd, a psychiatrist, and I were on on interstate, when off in the distance I noticed a charming antebellum mansion. Remarking that I was incredulous that <span style="font-style: italic">he</span> hadn't noticed it, he told me, "Nobody sees the world or what's in it as <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> do". That he was paying attention to driving, and not the scenery, had a lot to do with it, too.

I try to keep that in mind when discussing with (or wishing to admonish) others re: Life's Passions. Let's just hope that J. B. Nethercutt left a huge legacy (and an ironclad will) to sustain <span style="font-style: italic">his</span> vision of collecting. Drop in and see it sometime, on your next visit to Sylmar, CA.

In the meantime, <span style="font-weight: bold">drive your old car</span>, it needs the exercise!

TG

[Packard enthus.]

guys - there is a bitter-sweet irony in all this. Some of us have had our big-engined REAL classic cars long enough to remember when they werent worth ANYTHING ! When I bought my '38 Packard V-12 in 1955, a decent Model "A" Ford was worth at least a hundred bucks My parents thought I was nuts for paying but twenty five bucks for "that silly old gas gobbler".

Yes, as those of my generation, who loved the big classics for what they were as machines (and still are, if you maintain them properly) fade away, their value will continue to drop. I doubt if my bone-stock Packard V-12 sedan (oh..o.k...I did revise the rear axle gearing for less scary fuel consumption at freeway speeds...!) is now worth what a good used Toyota will bring ! And yes, I was horrorfied a few months ago, to pick up a hot rod magazine, which had a cover story about a guy who "gutted" a mid thirties Packard V-12 convertible sedan, installing a modern Ford V-10 and "all the goodies".

I dont have any solution for all this. But I can tell you this - I was enjoying driving the Packard V-12 at insane speed last year, on a still-serviceable section of old U.S. Highway 66, when a hot-rodded '39 Merc. past me like I was standing still. Later that day, I met the owner at an old car event. He was baffled..wanted to see under my hood, explaining he had to go well over 110 mph to pass me. He was (and probably remains) totally baffled as to why I had maintained my car for all these years in "stock" condition, just as I cant understand what is wrong with a stock '39 Merc.

Oh well...I cant understand females...either...!

[1937hd45]

I wonder if War Bird enthusiasts go through the same thing? A P-51 Mustang is found in a hidden location that never saw action in WWII, restore it of build a cliped wing Reno Racer?