F14CRAZY

Supercharging (this time, it's real)

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Because a Diesel has no throttle plate - they run wide open all the time. Power/speed is controled by the fuel injection.

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Picked up the intake manifold gasket kit today. It came with fuel rail O rings and some other gaskets, which I'm guessing are for the throttle body and stuff.

I also sent out my MEMCAL to Ryan via Priority Mail.

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I hope your project works out. You could program the EGR out of the system if that becomes a problem since it is a different style. Deleting it will hurt fuel mileage somewhat, and the engine will be more sensitive to part throttle knock, but the chip can be adjusted to richen the mixture to help that. What sort of MAF is used with the supercharger? I have three different MAF's I am testing on the flowbench to establish flow rate vs frequency output, a stock '90 3800 MAF, a 3" remote mount from a 3400 engine and an integrated MAF/throttle body (also Hitachi) from a TPI 3800 engine. Work continues.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Old Thread, "Supercharging, revisited"

This is not a daydream, a crazy idea, speculation, etc. This time around, it's real.</div></div>

Doesn't Greg Ross have a supercharger in his Reatta? I fail to see how it's been speculation before if it's been done. There's also an Oldsmobile Trofeo out there with a series II supercharged, saw it in a gas station in Indiana a couple years ago. BTW, a Trofeo and a Reatta alot alike.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We came to the conclusion that it isn't that easy. Ryan of Sinister Performance/GMtuners said it would be about $6k to swap an L67, the supercharged series II 3800 and 4T60-e transmission into a '90 Reatta. We chose the '90 to avoid any instrumentation complications (like with the ECC). He'd also need about 6 weeks to do it, not to mention that he's near Fort Wayne, IN and we're near Lansing, MI.</div></div>

The instrumentation communications in the 90 is very similar to the eariler years, you still need the proper communications between the gauges and the body computer. Your body computer depends on the engine computer for much of it's data as well. In other words, you can't just go swapping computers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was no easy way, until now...

I propose to obtain a complete engine from a '95 or so era Park Avenue (or Riviera), the "series 1" supercharged 3800, and directly swap the necessary parts onto my engine, for a planned increase of about 60 horsepower, to 225 hp, up from 165. Maybe2fast, also known as Don in Walled Lake, MI is my primary moral supporter.</div></div>

You're buying the engine, then swapping parts to yours? Why not just install the entire engine? It's not exactly a P-N-P operation to install the supercharger on the early 3800.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I know, he knows, Ryan knows, and from other posts (like in Supercharging, Revisited [thanks guys]), this idea should work. We're not completely certain yet, but we think that the cylinder heads on my engine DO NOT need to be swapped out. </div></div>

While the cylinder heads may be a concern, you may want to think about the rest of the engine. Camshaft profile, rotationg assembly balance (you'll need the twin belt balancer) and anything else that might be different.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The S/C engine, at least the series 1, is pretty much just an LN3. The crankshaft, pistons, and engine internals are pretty much the same. Nothing weird inside. The series II is a much different story, however, that's why we're skipping that one.</div></div>

Yes, they're very similar. There was quite a few changes between the 88-90 engine and the 91-95 non-supercharged.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ryan of GMtuners previously said that he can reburn by EEPROM/memcal/ECM chip to accomodate the changes in fuel, air, and the boost. I will be sending this to him pretty soon (like this Tuesday, after president's day)</div></div>

This is a mass airflow system, so it doesn't understand 'boost', just how much air is passing the sensor. There was some changes in the airflow sensor, so you might have some issues with it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say this is real because I've already secured the funding. My dad handed me $600 cash, </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have school, my wonderful girlfriend (sorry guys, it isn't Jessica tongue.gif) a life, etc so I can't work on this project 24/7, but with a weekend, I'd say that this swap could be easily done in a day. I tend to work at a kind of slow pace and don't always have critical stuff on hand like gaskets, uncommon sockets and wrenches, etc. But nevertheless, it won't take a month or anything. I could probably get it done in a week or two with my schedule. The good thing is that our Reattas are laid up for the winter anyway, so there's not much to do.</div></div>

Be ready to spend alot more time than two weeks on it. If you've never tackled a major project like this, you're in for a surprise.

There was a guy a year or so ago that was doing a Series II / 4T60E swap in another guy's Reatta. He got on the gmecm mailing list asking questions about how to get the gauges to work. Found out he'd swapped computers, made quite a mess of the car. Just be careful with the electronics, it's easy to get into a ringer on one of these cars.

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As "Olds Trofeo" points out and as I asked a few days ago, why are you so determined to bolt Series I S/C parts onto a tired old 3.8L. Unless you're rebuilding from the bottom up why even bother to invest in top end gaskets, just pull the 3.8L and replace it with the S/C 3800. Why complicate the job since the mods needing doing are all external to the engine.

And let Murphy get a wiff of this, you'll be breaking bolts and inducing a whole other level of torment and toil here?????????

Come with your questions when things look confusing.

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Keep in mind that Greg did not start from a 88-90 "C" engine, he started with a crate "L". There are differences between the crank snout and balancer of an "C" (slip fit) vs an "L" (interference fit) for instance. Also while most specs are the same between the L-27 and L-67 (not all: the oil pressure spec on the "C" is 40 psi at 1875 rpm. The "L" is 60 psi at the same speed. There is a reason the general kicked up the pressure), the s/c engines used a different bearing material.

If it were me, I'd tear down the L-67 and treat it to bearings, gaskets, timing chain and sprockets, water pump, and brass freeze plugs while out but certainly would go with the package.

This would also provide an opportunity to look at the cylinder walls, piston tops, and heads and decide if a valve job (probably) and ring job was advisable.

Or you can just install it as is, crank, and hope. But I would not try swapping the s/c to the "C" engine.

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Some pix from today:

sc4.jpg

Our Series I L67, now with the big aluminum assembly with the tensioners and idlers off

sc5.jpg

Top of the engine with fuel rail and injectors off

sc6.jpg

Here we have the big assembly thing mentioned and the fuel rail. I later replaced the O rings

sc7.jpg

Throttle body off. Looks like I'm going to be using the L67 throttle body and stuff

sc8.jpg

Supercharger's now off of the intake manifold

sc9.jpg

Bottom of the supercharger, if you guys wondered what's in it. I dumped the oil out of it and will pick some up tomorrow.

sc10.jpg

Here's what's in the L67 without the manifold. I covered it to keep out dust until it's better stored

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Hello F14CRAZY (What the heck does that mean anyway?)

Looks like you have your work cut out for you. I wish you all the luck with your undertaking. As mentioned above, the project is going to take longer and cost more than you might imagine. But please, don't get discouraged. In the words of Theodore Roosevelt... "The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything." (Or words to that effect.) For more words of encouragement look here or here

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Thanks John.

F14 goes way back to like 4th grade. F14 as in the Grumman F-14 Tomcat. Sadly, they've already flown their last missions. I haven't ever changed F14CRAZY as my AOL screen name and swore never to (i hate it when people change the email addresses etc often). It still sounds cool, and F14 suit as a good nickname See below

f14.jpg

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OK...I wasn't finished with the last post. (I spilled sticky sweet lemonaid on the keyboard.) Thanks for the update on the F14 moniker.

Really appreciate the text and the improved photo quality of your pics. Keep'em comming.

Oh, and I can't help but add this encouraging quote from a former Vice President...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If we do not succeed, we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle </div></div> grin.gif

Potatoe - Potathoe... What the heck....

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Used supercharger oil is the stinkiest stuff I have ever smelled.

You can replace with a very high quality synthetic oil or the GM supercharger oil.

You might want to put a smaller pulley on now?

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I'm gonna pick up some of that supercharger oil from a GM dealer later today

I thought about an underdrive pulley but I'll do that later. Goal now is to get it working and driveable

I read that the couplers inside these can go bad, but rebuild kits are readily available on ebay and it looks easy

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Good Luck with your project dude. Thanks for taking the time to put it here for all of is to see.

Some rather pitiful insinuation is this post. Reatta, a CHIC car? Pa-lease! ! confused.gif (Only Kidding)

This link may be of some help f14crazy:

More L-67 Info

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I checked out the link...it's relevent but not helpful. Always more "swap the whole motor" or "get a series II."

Might not get much time in today cuz I'm going to visit my girlfriend this evening but I'm going to start tearing down my LN3, and may not if for sure it'll bolt up or not. A quick look last night indicated that yes, the intake manifold bolt pattern is the same (which to me is the biggest challenge I face).

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Old Thread, "Supercharging, revisited"

This is not a daydream, a crazy idea, speculation, etc. This time around, it's real.</div></div>

Doesn't Greg Ross have a supercharger in his Reatta? I fail to see how it's been speculation before if it's been done. There's also an Oldsmobile Trofeo out there with a series II supercharged, saw it in a gas station in Indiana a couple years ago. BTW, a Trofeo and a Reatta alot alike.

I know that supercharging has been done before. However, nobody else has attempted a bolt on project to the existing LN3

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We came to the conclusion that it isn't that easy. Ryan of Sinister Performance/GMtuners said it would be about $6k to swap an L67, the supercharged series II 3800 and 4T60-e transmission into a '90 Reatta. We chose the '90 to avoid any instrumentation complications (like with the ECC). He'd also need about 6 weeks to do it, not to mention that he's near Fort Wayne, IN and we're near Lansing, MI.</div></div>

The instrumentation communications in the 90 is very similar to the eariler years, you still need the proper communications between the gauges and the body computer. Your body computer depends on the engine computer for much of it's data as well. In other words, you can't just go swapping computers.

That's exactly the problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was no easy way, until now...

I propose to obtain a complete engine from a '95 or so era Park Avenue (or Riviera), the "series 1" supercharged 3800, and directly swap the necessary parts onto my engine, for a planned increase of about 60 horsepower, to 225 hp, up from 165. Maybe2fast, also known as Don in Walled Lake, MI is my primary moral supporter.</div></div>

You're buying the engine, then swapping parts to yours? Why not just install the entire engine? It's not exactly a P-N-P operation to install the supercharger on the early 3800.

It's not plug and play to install an entire, different engine either

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I know, he knows, Ryan knows, and from other posts (like in Supercharging, Revisited [thanks guys]), this idea should work. We're not completely certain yet, but we think that the cylinder heads on my engine DO NOT need to be swapped out. </div></div>

While the cylinder heads may be a concern, you may want to think about the rest of the engine. Camshaft profile, rotationg assembly balance (you'll need the twin belt balancer) and anything else that might be different.

I've got the harmonic balancer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The S/C engine, at least the series 1, is pretty much just an LN3. The crankshaft, pistons, and engine internals are pretty much the same. Nothing weird inside. The series II is a much different story, however, that's why we're skipping that one.</div></div>

Yes, they're very similar. There was quite a few changes between the 88-90 engine and the 91-95 non-supercharged.

We'll see

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ryan of GMtuners previously said that he can reburn by EEPROM/memcal/ECM chip to accomodate the changes in fuel, air, and the boost. I will be sending this to him pretty soon (like this Tuesday, after president's day)</div></div>

This is a mass airflow system, so it doesn't understand 'boost', just how much air is passing the sensor. There was some changes in the airflow sensor, so you might have some issues with it.

I'm competent that from what Ryan has said, he's making me a good program for this

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say this is real because I've already secured the funding. My dad handed me $600 cash, </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have school, my wonderful girlfriend (sorry guys, it isn't Jessica tongue.gif) a life, etc so I can't work on this project 24/7, but with a weekend, I'd say that this swap could be easily done in a day. I tend to work at a kind of slow pace and don't always have critical stuff on hand like gaskets, uncommon sockets and wrenches, etc. But nevertheless, it won't take a month or anything. I could probably get it done in a week or two with my schedule. The good thing is that our Reattas are laid up for the winter anyway, so there's not much to do.</div></div>

Be ready to spend alot more time than two weeks on it. If you've never tackled a major project like this, you're in for a surprise.

It probably will take more time, but a lot is waiting for parts (Advance Auto Parts won't have the gaskets I ordered until Saturday)

There was a guy a year or so ago that was doing a Series II / 4T60E swap in another guy's Reatta. He got on the gmecm mailing list asking questions about how to get the gauges to work. Found out he'd swapped computers, made quite a mess of the car. Just be careful with the electronics, it's easy to get into a ringer on one of these cars. </div></div>

Again, electronics are the hard part with doing this work, which is why I'm not going with the series II/4T60e or anything else. By keeping the LN3 right where it is, the ECM won't care. There's the boost issue and all, but at least gauges won't be a problem. I don't wish to offend or talk back or anything like that, just defend what I'm doing and why.

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Don't apologize for anything you do ooo.gif You are in somewhat unexplored territory, so failure is a possibilty, but you'll never know until you try. You will need to figure out how to run the EGR or possibly delete it, (only as a last resort), also the boost control on the S/C will need a control and the LN3 heads lack the ports for the integrated PCV system. You could possibly plumb an external PCV system, similar to the stock engine, maybe swap the heads too, or I have been looking at adding the port to the stock heads, but I do not know yet if that is an option. My guess is if the vacuum to the trans. modulator is above the s/c rotors, boost won't be a problem for the modulator, but if it does see boost, you will need some sort of shutoff or a venting check valve like I made for that line. The stock trans will work if used sensibly but by all means, install a large cooler for the transaxle.

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Thanks for the encouragement, 2 seater and John. Gives the project some much needed morale.

About PCV...in the photo of the top view of the engine, the S/C housing has a black, square cover with like 2 bolts on it. In the photo, it's kind of in the top left corner. And it's marked PCV...could this be of use you think?

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Or, could I like use the brake booster line that the Bonneville utilized and pipe the PCV or EGR to or something?

Sorry if this is a trivial question, but I haven't had a good look at the PCV or EGR. I understand what they do, but not where they plug in or anything (imma work on it tomorrow though and will learn quick)

Overread it, but thanks for mentioning the transaxle modulator. I might have to ask about how you dealt with it on your turbo setup.

Will be reporting back tomorrow

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Since I now have the intake manifold gaskets for a Reatta and the SSEi...I took quick look at them and compared them this morning. The ports and everything pretty much look the same, thought the SSEi gaskets have an extra hole, maybe the size of a dime. I'm going to take closer look later. But I don't think it will be hard to mate the supercharged intake manifold to the LN3 heads

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I noticed the aforementioned "extra hole" in your pix of the intake.

This may be to provide oil or coolant to the s/c from the heads, which may explain the "extra hole" in the gasket.

I have a 1990 olds 98-parts car, series I 3800, if it helps for reference, or parts.

"He will make this car the best he, (and his Dad), can afford."

With our help, along the way!

Kudos to you, Phillip! For taking the challenge most would not attempt!

Just remember, ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

post-38921-143137886922_thumb.jpg

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I know that supercharging has been done before. However, nobody else has attempted a bolt on project to the existing LN3</div></div>

I've heard of people doing it to an "L" engine, but not a "C". I'd recommend your first step to be attemtping to install the harmonic balancer. If it fits, start the engine and make sure you don't have a vibration. There are several part numbers for harmonic balancers for the 3800. Looking at a Dorman book, here's a few of them:

1988-1990 594-001

1995-2000 594-004

1991-1992 594-005

1993-1994 594-034

Dorman is an aftermarket company, they don't make any more part numbers than necessary. If this doesn't work, you'll want to take this project in a different direction.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not plug and play to install an entire, different engine either</div></div>

Mechanically, it's very close. Electrically it's just as easy as what you're doing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm competent that from what Ryan has said, he's making me a good program for this</div></div>

Not likely the first time. Get on thirdgen.org and find Grumpy. Ask him how many chips it takes to make something perfect.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, electronics are the hard part with doing this work, which is why I'm not going with the series II/4T60e or anything else. By keeping the LN3 right where it is, the ECM won't care.</div></div>

The ECM does not care what engine you have. It cares what it's sensor inputs are and that it has 6 saturated fuel injectors to drive. Now, by changing how it gets it's air and the size of the injectors you're using, you've just thrown off the code in that 32KB chip. By keeping the "C" engine, you will not make this part of the project any easier.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's the boost issue and all, but at least gauges won't be a problem. I don't wish to offend or talk back or anything like that, just defend what I'm doing and why. </div></div>

There is no boost issue! This ECM does not understand or see boost. You have no MAP sensor. I'm not offended, I'm just trying to explain how this ECM thinks. It has no comprehension of how the air gets in there, it just measures incoming air.

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