F14CRAZY

Supercharging (this time, it's real)

Recommended Posts

Considering the hybrid you created, you are doing pretty well up to now. There is no doubt it will require tuning. Do you have a scan tool to record all sensors? Hard to diagnose without more data. You could pick a few different sensors to watch and toggle between them in diagnostics to maybe get a handle on what the engine is asking for. Severe knock will make the engine lay over from reduced timing or more likely it wants more fuel. Does the TPS operate over the entire range it should? It may not be getting enough PE or power enrichment. While it won't make much difference, set the TPS as high as you can, like .42 for idle if possible. It may also require some run time to get the ECM programming to adjust to the new air flows and such. Watch the O2 reading if possible and see if it goes lean while trying to accelerate, a very low reading. If I remember right, you don't have EGR at this time. If it is disconnected, the E026 may show up (quad driver). You cound just connect the EGR solenoid assembly and tie it out of harms way. The EGR won't work but the ECM should be happier. Keep at it, but be careful about knock and running lean. Look at the simple and obvious stuff too. Make sure the spark plugs are on the correct coil outputs, vacuum leaks of course and check the fuel pressure. I assume you are using the injectors for the S/C engine. Do they all operate correctly? None are stuck or restricted from sitting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't exactly have a scan tool. Will the ECC's diagnostic mode be sufficient? I can report back my sensor readings, and I haven't done it before but I gues I could use the snapshot to record data at certain times.

Didn't check the TPS well, will do and report back tomorrow. At set idle to 0.42V.

I'll report back with knock and oxygen info too.

Correct. EGR was turned off by Ryan and I've capped it off.

I can borrow a fuel pressure gauge from our neighborhood mechanic.

Didn't find any air leaks, but will check again. My dad and I were busy looking everything else over (coolant hoses, gas lines, etc).

I wish I knew for sure that the new injectors were okay, but I don't. The yard said it was running fine a month ago since I bought it, but that's all. My Explorer did have an injector stuck open once and it ran pretty bad, and would trash spark plugs in that cylinder. Would turning the ignition on and checking the pressure (and how long it took for it to drop down) be a good test?

BTW, first time I tried starting, it cranked fine but wouldn't fire. Found out I had the two fuel rail hoses reversed. I didn't kill the regulator or anything by doing this, did I?

Thanks again 2seater. If I could, I'd fly in you, Greg, Padgett, and Ryan and figure this goofy car out cool.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scan tool and ECC will report the same things (Reatta is one of few that does). Be aware that the reading will be what the ECC *thinks* is happening and not necessarily what is. If you have different sensors or MAF, the factors may require fudging though I think Greg's initially ran pretty good with 88 parameters.

One thing to look for is constant knock readings since will retard the spark quite a bit.

Since you have no EGR, you will probably get an EGR error. Could just connect one to the harness but I remember something about the EGR is tested by turning it on and looking for an rpm drop. On Greg's we just disabled the EGR error mechanism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Recheck your ignition wires again, Padgett was surprised how well mine idled and revved up on crossed wires. As Hal suggests, go in and look at knock count is doing, and what o2 numbers look like. A snapshot scan can be misleading since some values fluxuate quite dramatically. Try clearing the E026 fault even if it's active/ current. Be interesting to know what the timing retard number is?

I'm wondering if the orientation of the timing interupter rings is the same on both harmonic balancers? relative position of the keyways on the nose of the crank?

Don't get discouraged, you're just getting started!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greg: I did get wondering about the harmonic balancer rings, but if you take a look at the photos I took, they appear the same. Was worried for a few minutes...

I didn't remove any spark plug wires, but I will check them again.

Will post back with the numbers later. High school gets in the way of things, but at least my newspaper hour and my time at career center give me a chance to visit the forum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think intially reversing the fuel lines would kill the regulator, it's a pretty simple mechanism, just a spring and diaphragm, but it is certainly a good idea to check fuel pressure, even better if you can watch it while driving. I found a partially plugged fuel filter that only showed up under a good load (high demand). The pressure test after turning the key off may help to tell if an injector is stuck open but not if stuck closed or restricted. It is normal for the pressure to bleed down over a period of time. If it holds reasonable pressure for an hour or so there probably aren't any large faults. As for a scan tool, it only helps you record for a period of time but isn't any more capable than the onboard stuff. If the lack of performance is consistant, you will have plenty of time to watch different sensors while it is acting up. Greg is right that the O2 reading will fluctuate, but you can see if it is consistantly low, like staying below .5 volts. You could also watch the cross counts to see if it is going rich/lean as it should. The BLM and integrator will give you a good idea if it thinks it is rich or lean too. A simple vacuum gauge connected while the engine is at warm idle may help detect a vacuum leak. I usually see 18-19" of vacuum at idle. Just gather as much data as you can to help narrow the search. Crossed plug wires can make a difference and also crossed injector connections, but the injectors firing out of sequence will tend to get better as speed increases. It sure sounds like lack of fuel, mine would nose over pretty hard with the bad filter, but it could be timing as well. Just getting it running and somewhat driveable is a victory of sorts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't have much time today because I had to work, but I fired up the car and let it idle for a few minutes with the mass air flow sensor disconnected, then ran it up to about 2k rpm. Did about the same sputtering as it did.

Will report back with those sensor readings tomorrow. Sorry for the wait, but thanks for all the help

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots to check, but I will get those readings...

Would you like them at idle, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 2k rpm or something like that?

I noticed that for maybe half a minute on startup, there was a really loud air noise, like a vacuum line gone wrong. Somewhere from the throttle body area. Couldn't find it, but it went away and the car idles okay. Is this a sign of a worn supercharger?

Will be checking the ignition wires and the injector connectors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I noticed that for maybe half a minute on startup, there was a really loud air noise, like a vacuum line gone wrong. Somewhere from the throttle body area.. </div></div> Nope just induction noise that is louder on a cold start, no problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See if you can get your hands on a GM vetronics Tech-1 scantool, w/mass storage cartrige. These can read all the codes, store in mass cart. and even manipulate data in the ECM. Being in the Mo-town area, your school shop may have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got thinking...would it possible for my to burn my own memcal programs with ryan were to email them to me? I don't know exactly what's involved with programming. I checked into software and a cable to do it with the not yet finished Car-Puter. Built in, on board ECM programming would be nice, if I knew how to do it grin.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got some sensor readings...I switched to the L67 TPS after I got these readings, so they might be very slightly different after this. I can list the sensor codes (ED01, etc) if you wish. I gave all readings a few seconds before recording them. Sorry for not reporting them in order...I need to get into the habit of pressing either YES or NO, and doing it consistently tongue.gif. I went for a spin. Again, it accelerates fine under part throttle, but acceleration will give out with any normal amount of throttle (to floored). With this light acceleration, I got it up to 70 mph and could have went faster. It will give out and do the same thing if you go over about 2250 rpm. It runs fine until that point if you slowly increase throttle.

At idle...

TPS: 0.38

injector pulse width: 4.7-4.9

oxygen sensor voltage: 0.12-0.74, with very rapid, random change in between

spark advance: 25-27

spark angle (knock, Ed16): 0

OLDPA3: 265

oxygen sensor cross counts: 0, 5 (not 0 through 5)

fuel integrator: 128

BLM: 135

air flow: 9.5-10.3, rapidly and randomly changing in between

IAC: 97-102

MAT: 7

ignition cycle counter: 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At about 1500-1600 rpm...at this point in testing, the oxygen sensor thingy in diagnostics was blinking like it does, and closed loop operation was, um, in operation...

TPS: 0.48

IGN cycles: 0

coolant temp: 82 (my thermostat and fans are set at 180 degrees f).

air flow: 12-12.4, randomly and rapidly changing in between

MAT: 9

IAC: 68

BLM fuel: 140

INT fuel: 123-131, randomly and rapidly changing in between

oxygen sensor cross counts: 14-20, slowly changing in between

OLD PA3: 265

spark angle: 0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, at a little over 2k rpm, where the engine was running bad and surging up and down...

TPS: 0.68

ED06, injector pulse width: 4.1-6.2

ED07, oxygen sensor voltage: .03-.83, rapidly and randomly changing in between

ED08, spark advance: 29

ED16: 0

ED17: old PA3: 178 (not changing)

ED18, oxygen sensor cross counts: 0-4 (slowly changing in between)

ED19, fuel integrator: 155

ED20, BLM: 90-135 (alternating, either at 90 or 135)

ED21, air flow: 17

Gonna send this out to Ryan also

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks fairly normal except for the integrator and BLM. As the rpm goes up and starts the erratic operation it could be at the top of the range for the amount of fuel it can add? The BLM should gradually increase with the integrator that high. The BLM shouldn't dance around at a fairly constant speed, although you could be at the border between two cells and the erratic engine behaviour is cycling between them, but I wouldn't think they should be that far apart in adjacent cells? I would guess that Ryan adjusted the range of the BLM for the L67 injectors, we did so several times to get mine close to the desired 128. If operating normally and it needs more fuel, the integrator will rise until it gets to a point where it will cause the BLM to move in the same direction and the process will start over. This process should happen over and over until the BLM has risen far enough to allow the integrator to cycle around the 128 number. It certainly looks like a fueling problem, there just isn't enough to allow for much acceleration, but you can sneak up on the speed with very light throttle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just did some reading...I guess the BLM is long term ECM learning to keep from running too rich/lean, and the integrator is the same but "short" term (I googled and found it on a turbo Buick site).

Do you think it's more like a fuel regulator problem or a fuel pump not doing enough problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh, yes, fuel is critical, especially on a forced induction engine. A fuel pressure test set isn't too expensive, and can be used on other cars too. It is possible to make a substitute with a #4 JIC swivel fitting (for 1/4 hydraulic flare fittings) which will screw right on the fuel rail pressure tap, however, the core must be removed from the pressure tap. An inexpensive gauge, can be connected to the swivel with fuel injection rated hose. It can be made long enough to tape to the mirror or windshield. 100 psi gauges are available inexpensively or even a tire pressure gauge can be substituted, as long as the bourdon tube inside is brass or stainless. You must be very careful and it should be connected or disconnected when the engine is cool, it will dribble fuel. This isn't the best solution, but it will allow for watching the pressure while driving. The best and safest is a remote fuel pressure gauge with an isolator in between the gauge and the engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My neigborhood mechanic has a real fuel pressure gauge, and I'll drive it to him (few houses down, no big deal). He'll probably let me borrow it. And I guess Advance, Autozone, etc offer them for free rental. I'll get on this tomorrow and report back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got an email from Ryan back today...

<span style="font-weight: bold">Philip, got the data and in looking it over, I have a few questions.

I believe you told me you installed an entire 3800 Series 1 SC and intake manifold onto your engine, correct? Did you use the injectors, TB, all sensors, etc from the SC engine?

Did you change out your in-tank fuel pump for a stronger unit better suited for the SC?

At this point we need to get some fuel pressure readings. You will need to hook up a fuel pressure gauge to the engine and tape it to the windshield - or somewhere you can watch it while driving. Then I want you to go for a drive and report to me the fuel pressure readings at various throttle %.

You should have about 45psi fuel pressure key on, engine off for the first 2 seconds. With the engine idling, the fuel pressure should be about 35-38psi. Under boost, the fuel pressure should climb approx 1psi above base (45psi) per 1 psi of boost. For example, if the SC is pushing 10psi of boost, the fuel pressure should be around 55psi and steady. What do you get?

If you haven't replaced your fuel pump, this MIGHT be one of the reasons why you are having issues. The stock Reatta pump is not designed for boosted applications. However, there still could be a problem with the programming so that is why I want you to check out your fuel pressure.

-ryan</span>

It seems my bad link is fuel pressure. I would have worked on it today, but we had some work to do...being a family of plumbers, and I'm the backhoe operator, we were replacing a fresh water line to a house from the street in the city, and Miss-Dig was a bit off regarding a gas line...nothing bad happened, but it was an awful mess.

But anyway, I will get to obtaining a fuel pressure gauge, and will report back with readings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Philip,

You were not payung attention in Class! Don B. advised you to change out that Fuel Pump way early on.

When I converted mine to S/C I did a bunch of other things including replacing the Fuel Tank (the orig. was looking pretty shabby on top) and the whole fuel line harness. Used a pristine tank of a '90 and used the latter style plastic fuel/ return kit for a Riviera. The little bit of extra length was no problem BTW. I also had fabricated high pressure ( the sexy looking Stainless Steel braded reinforced-the real stuff) Got end fittings from a salvage yard to mate up to the factory Fittings on the Fuel Rail and had them brazed onto proper crimp type hose end fittings to make the crossover. Now back to the Fuel Pump;

The Carter I purchased aftermarket, and its' been in there for several years now without any problems. The torment was getting it into the tank. The way the factory Fuel Pump is installed as I recall it bacically has self sealing couplers. To substitute the Carter I had to use bits of Hose/ Hose Clamps and throw those factory Bits away. I used a Hose Clamp to mount the Pump its'self to the Riser Pipe. Next trick was to persuede it into the tank, GM never intended the oversized pump in this tank so the opening is small. I had to manouver, press, persuede/ force it in the opening. As I was doing this I thought to myself, "I'm doubtful this will be coming back out of this tank!"

I do suspect you're going to find it is a fuel pressure issue and you'll be into this routine. Good luck with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Greg. I remember Don B. mentioning it, but then 2seater was like 'aw it's fine." But no big deal.

Today or tomorrow I'll have our neighborhood mechanic check the pressure, but I'm agreeing that I'm most likely not getting enough fuel due to the pump.

Can I go ahead and use an SSEi fuel pump? Would I be swapping the entire pump/gauge sensor assembly or just changing the pump on the assembly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The SSEI Pump would most likely be fine, problem is I think you're going to end up swapping just the pump since the Tank Top Flange on the SSEI tank is apt to be much larger in daimeter, compare them first though. Second issue then would be the depth of the Tank/ swing of the float arm etc, the reatta Tank might not be deep enough or/ and your Gage accuracy would end up being way off.

Hal,

From the good write-up on Fuel System performance, any option for to switch to the S/C Fuel Rail or, at a minimum the S/C Fuel Regulator (I have a spare I think if you're interested) Is it vacuum variation that's altering the pressure regulators' output? Anything that helps with fuel enrichment under boost has to be going the right way!

Philip,

Attached is an-under-the-hood from Betsy Blue. You should be able to at least see how I tidied up the Wiring Harness'. ran the FI up over the blower rather then having to extend all the leads and all three sensors for the Throttle Body are nested together running again over the top.

post-30773-143137886928_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems I neglected to deal with this...but there's a cable attached to the transmission that used to connect to the throttle linkages. Is this a kickdown cable? And, how should I go about connecting it with the new throttle body? It doesn't have a provision for it, nor does the black metal thing that the throttle linkages attach to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And, it seems that transmission operation is not affected without it (from what mediocre driving I've done with it).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...