Can SEMA or anyone else clarify this?

[Su8overdrive]

Thanks for the lucidity Fordy, Peter Gariepy, TTR, SteveMaz,  Joe_Padavano and TAKerry, for bucking the reactionary rants above.   The syntax in many of the above posts,  the readiness to ally us gearheads with the downhome gun loonies, says it all.  These are guys accustomed to panicking, not reading.  Imagine most are Fox "News" and tawk radio devotees.   Those of us playing with old cars for half a century or more well remember the dire predictions of a world without leaded gas or "enough" zinc dithiophosphate.

 

 The reality was Amoco gasoline was always lead-free, used in tens of millions of cars throughout the 1930s and beyond with no problem.  For those racing through the Rockies while pulling a trailer, there are products like Red Line Lead Substitute, which uses benign sodium instead of tetraethyl lead, which causes brain damage in children, senility in adults, the latter effect can be gauged in many of the above posts. 

 

A Conoco Philips/Kendall engineer, himself owning a highly tweaked '67 Camaro flat tappet engine with valve spring pressures vastly higher than our prewar flathead lawn mower engines --- regardless how well wrought Packard, Pierce-Arrow and others --- explained that after increasing ZDDP levels led to catalytic convertor woes, it was dialed back to 1970s levels in not just their motor oil, but that of all major brands.  And we didn't hear all this nonsense in the 1970s, did we?   The ZDDP hysteria began when a couple CCCAers with flathead 1936-48 346-ci Cad V-8s blamed today's vastly better motor oil for the chintzy bronze cam gears Generous Motors used in their recently rebuilt engines failing, because, you know, it's the silicone DOT 5 brake fluid that makes your tail light bulbs burn out, right?  (An  old car friend who as a young man was service manager at a Cadillac dealership called GM "Generous Motors,"  he preferring Packard, Pierce, Chrysler, even FoMoCo.)

 

  Imagine most of the above posters, other than the more reflective TTR, Steve, Joe, Fordy, Peter, TAKerry, still think synthetic motor oil unsympatico with old seals,  even tho' it was only the esters in such, omitted decades ago.

 

  This same Conoco Philips engineer, who was friends with the fellow who developed the "Classic Car Motor Oil" marketed via the CCCA, said he used off the shelf Kendall GT1 10W/30 in his seriously high output Camaro, no additives, nothing else, and laughed, "If you want to stay in business, you provide customers with what they want, or think they need,"  by way of explaining why Kendall themselves still offered motor oil with additional ZDDP.

 

  The real threats to our kooky hobby are the dearth of mechanics who know the old ways, and overpopulation--the latter makes driving an old car a pain, a halting lockstep on a concrete conveyor belt, and 350 million babies onboard in the US, 8 1/5th billion globally, all burning some kind of carbon on a planet so small the towers of suspension bridges out of parallel to reflect the curvature of the earth, something's gotta give, making i.c. cars a more convenient target than grappling with overpopulation.  Which is probably why so many of the above prefer playing on their computers, railing about "thuh bureaucrats" that "thuh politicians" they elect appoint.  Am sure their parents accused their New Yorker reading neighbors of being commies.

 

   For those unafraid of facts and the written word, we'll continue:

   

 

Edited June 15 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[Su8overdrive]

Caramba, was looking for something i'd written explaining why EVs not the real threat but had just sent an auld girlfriend the above number and couldn't delete it, but reasoned a little musical interlude from when many of our wheeled alter egos still young might not harm these hysterical proceedings.

 

There are not enough raw materials for the world to swap all ICE cars for EVs.  EVs run on petroleum tires (producing most of the dust in urban areas), and use six (6) times as many minerals as i.c. cars, including cobalt, lithium, nickel, copper, manganese, graphite, zinc,  rare earths like neodymium, thallium, and dysprosium, the latters' extraction requiring huge amounts of carcinogens like ammonia, hydrochloric acid, sulfates.  Much of these minerals are imported from politically unstable regions.

 

Thallium has been a common ingredient in rat poison. It's tasteless, odorless, and nearly colorless. While those who tested positive hadn't consumed poisonous levels of the metal, it was enough to cause fatigue, heart arrhythmia, nausea, digestive trouble, neurological problems, and hair loss. The scariest part is that even after patients completed detoxification regimens, thallium continued to show up in their systems.

 

"We now know that heavy metals are additive and synergistic," says David Quid, the lead scientist at Doctors Data,  PhD in nutritional biochemistry. "If you get a little thallium, and a little lead, and a little cadmium in your system, you've got one plus one plus one equals five or six, not just three." In other words, these metals do more damage when they're combined.

"This stuff bioaccumulates," he added. "Down the road, it's going to kick you in the ass one way or another."

 

 The real problem, and this the adult juggernaut, so get ready for  grousing about  "politics" from those decrying any but the reactionary, as we see in most of the above, other than TTR, Steve, Joe, Fordy, Peter, TAKerry,  remains, according to every poll of scientists:  overpopulation;  their words, "bigger than climate."  

 

   Because it's easier to attack i.c. automobiles than buck the consumer-driven media's blackout on what scientists consider by far our biggest problem,  easier than upsetting those whose business model so weak it dependent on evermore customers and cheap labor, conveniently overlooking that every nation with declining birthrate enjoys higher per capita GDP,  and that there are other ways of funding Social Security and Medicare without encouraging mindless breeding, let alone revising our antiquated, agrarian tax code from when more babies meant more hands to work the family farm, half of all children not surviving beyond age four.

 

   Now, to ensure this post banned by the barroom ranter in chief, we'll leave you with this, too:      

 

 UN and other studies show animals raised for meat and dairy produce more greenhouse gas than all the world's cars, trucks, buses, trains, planes, ships combined.   

 Much of the South American rain forest, what Dr. Helen Caldicott calls "the lungs of the earth,"  will be Amazon dot gone at present rate of destruction in 20 years  to raise soy as cattle feed so  Americans, fully a third of whom clinically morbidly obese,  can have cheaper burgers and pizza with cheese-infused crust.   This despite every study not overtly or covertly funded by meat, dairy, egg industry coming to the same conclusion:  The single best way to stave heart disease, cardiovascular ills, hypertension, inflammation, high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, macular degeneration, dementia (now termed type 3 diabetes), Alzheimer's is to adopt a plant-based vegan repast.  Hasn't slowed the leading Formula One driver, Lewis Hamilton.

 

    Now he's done it. Invoked both a woman  a n d   a tan fellow.  Next we'll be hearing about those awful car guy libs 'n' tree huggers like Paul Newman, James Garner, Dave Garroway, ex-New York Times Review of Books, the late publisher of Hemmings Motor News and the much missed Special Interest Autos, arborist, owner of a '40 Buick Roadmaster and several ancient trucks, as well as the first Prius sold in Vermont, Terry Ehrich.

 

   Former Road and Track longtime tech editor, also editor of the Society of Automotive Engineers' (SAE) magazine, Automotive Engineering,  Dennis Simanaitis, recently ran this bit about hybrids eclipsing EV sales.  BTW, if you're a fellow hardcore autoholic, esp. w/ tastes veering toward the sporting and vintage GTs, as well as interested in old planes, classical music, literature, science, math conundrums, old movies, historic curios, "ESSO terica" of all sorts,  Dennis's erudite site is much recommended: 

 

https://simanaitissays.com/2024/04/30/the-greenest-cars-of-2024-overall/

https://simanaitissays.com/2024/03/19/hybrid-cars-revisited/

 

   Meanwhile, we can play us/them and be alarmists at the latest bureacratic Band Aid on the patient hemorrhaging in the ER,  or triage;  tackle the overarching reasons i.c. cars will continue to be  whipping boys.

 

    We now rejoin  Oliver Stone conspiracy theories, already in progress.

 

   

 

Edited June 6 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[Studemax]

Talk to me in 10 years and we'll see whose head was in the sand.

 

You are correct about the fleecing...

[demco32]

On 6/4/2024 at 2:54 AM, Reynard said:

 

Well...the powers that be are slowly chipping away at the gun lobby, probably the strongest lobby in the country. SEMA is a much smaller, less well known and funded organization spread over many diverse automotive causes and. to my knowledge, has not taken a vociferous stand on the EV vs. ICE controversy. Automakers and most governments are certainly embracing EVs.

With the proliferation of EV's, significant changes will happen other than changes to the supply of petroleum products. Think of the various mechanical parts that are common ICE parts now and are supplied by distributors and retailers throughout the world. Starters, alternators, fuel system parts, mufflers and catalytic converters, and many, many more components. These businesses, from the manufacturers down to your local auto supply and mechanic will face serious and crucial changes.

Gas stations are presently adding or converting to EV charging stations and chargers are popping up in shopping malls, hotel parking lots, and, I kid you not, at my public library!

As demand for gas goes down, the petroleum producing countries will, as we see now, continue to raise prices to maintain their income levels. If gas prices are difficult now, what will they be after 2035? For example, if ammunition is limited or unavailable, guns are less effective. If petroleum produces are restricted or eliminated, ICEs are useless. This may never happen in our generation or even the next one or two, but the handwriting is on the wall. Kicking up "merry hell" may not turn the tide.

I'm not a doomsayer and the sky is not falling, but momentous changes are on the way. We can join hands to try to modify or delay them, begrudge, or accept them, but not ignore them. History is full of examples where impending changes were ignored, be them weather related, music/media related, war related, technical or political, and the results were disastrous to more than a few.

The best preparation for change is knowledge and flexibility.

The same is happening in Europe, 2035 should be the year in which no more new petrol and diesel cars are sold from new.

The laws have already been amended to oblige companies to purchase EV cars.

As a company, your company car is deductible from business income and this has now been adjusted in such a way that the deductible is systematically reduced from 100% deductible to 0%.

Everyone knows that the petrol or diesel price consists largely of taxes and that governments do not want or cannot lose that income.

The governments have also thought about this and that is why they have introduced a new type of tax.

It has been a few years now that all trucks above 3.5T have to pay a km tax, so for every km driven you have to pay a km tax.

So you not only have to pay expensive fuel, but also an additional tax for every km driven and of course the annual road tax.

The road tax is more expensive if you have an older and therefore more polluting car and the km tax is also more expensive.

More and more cities have an environmental zone in which older cars are no longer allowed to drive, every car has an emission label that starts at Euro 1 and goes up to Euro 6.

Every +/- 2 years the zone in which certain cars are no longer allowed to drive becomes stricter and eventually the Euro 6 will no longer be allowed to drive there, so only EVs are allowed.

In addition, there are already fewer parts available for certain types of cars because the demand for them has decreased significantly and manufacturers are no longer producing.

Just look at how difficult it is to buy parts for our antique cars, this is also due to supply and demand, which means that parts are no longer made.

Don't forget the evolution of technology, which is also the reason why certain parts are no longer made.

Whether we like it or not there is a big change happening and the everyday use of a petrol or diesel combustion engine car will stop.

There are manufacturers who are of course also looking for an alternative and, for example, developing a hydrogen engine.

General sales of fossil fuel will be phased out so you will have no choice.

Synthetic fuel has already been developed, but the prices will be very expensive and many antique car owners will of course no longer be able to afford it.

For those who can, there will soon be the law that imposes strict restrictions through laws.

Times change quickly.

At the end of the 1800s, horse and carts were common and people thought that those noisy and smelly gasoline cars were not good.

So a lot has changed in a period of 100 years and this will repeat itself with the new generations of means of transport that come our way.

The sky is not falling but we will have to adapt.

Let's also not forget the impact that all those fossil fuel cars have on the environment and our planet, that is of course a different discussion because there are many other transport and machines that have a combination engine.

The only thing we as antique car owners can do now is ensure that our cars are in good condition and pollute the environment as little as possible so that the governments do not ban the use of antique cars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[auburnseeker]

Now wait for the big pile of batteries and other toxic waste that all the green energy and Ev's will have piled up in 10 years. 

 

Talked to my tow truck driver that does alot of towing in the area.  Most wrecks and break downs on the interstate.  Very knowledgeable ,  extremely successful businessman,  He told me Junkyards won't take the Ev's.

 

If junkyards don't want them,  then the spent or damaged batteries must be a huge problem. 

 

I always look at overall picture.  we know how Ice can contribute to pollution and what their total footprint is as they have been around long enough to get a true picture. 

 

Have we yet arrived at the point where we can see the true footprint of the Ev's or the whole green energy plan? 

 

Are we swapping one problem for another that might even be worse in the end?  Easier to course correct before we go full steam if the numbers aren't adding up.

Edited June 6 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Studemax]

GM rents a cavern in Utah to store all those old Chevy Volt battery/chassis. Tesla does much the same. As pointed out salvage companies won't take the batteries. WHY? Because no one yet has developed a method to recycle all that lithium iron phosphate.

 

Also, it doesn't take much to notice all the electric vehicles (Tesla included) that keep burning to the ground. The problem - it can catch on fire AGAIN in a few days. Fire departments estimate that it takes the same amount of water to drown an EV battery fire as a 3 bedroom house on fire. Best method of smothering a burning car is to have a handy pit dug nearby large enough to swallow a car and have the pit already filled with water. Push it in and let it boil for a couple days.

 

These lithium iron batteries are the same tech used in smart phones and e-cigs - and they keep catching on fire or blowing up when charged or discharged too quickly. It's NOT a safe technology. And it's darn sure not clean. The amount of ore that must be refined to make a car battery is quite expensive. That's why the government is supporting that tech with millions in taxpayer funds. Elon's not stupid - the government is paying him to make Tesla tech for autos, trucks, and homes (yes, look up Tesla homes sometime), and NASA is paying him to keep SpaceX in business. Do your research, and don't believe the crap you hear on TV.

[demco32]

13 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Now wait for the big pile of batteries and other toxic waste that all the green energy and Ev's will have piled up in 10 years. 

 

Talked to my tow truck driver that does alot of towing in the area.  Most wrecks and break downs on the interstate.  Very knowledgeable ,  extremely successful businessman,  He told me Junkyards won't take the Ev's.

 

If junkyards don't want them,  then the spent or damaged batteries must be a huge problem. 

 

I always look at overall picture.  we know how Ice can contribute to pollution and what their total footprint is as they have been around long enough to get a true picture. 

 

Have we yet arrived at the point where we can see the true footprint of the Ev's or the whole green energy plan? 

 

Are we swapping one problem for another that might even be worse in the end?  Easier to course correct before we go full steam if the numbers aren't adding up.

I don't know about the USA, but in Europe batteries are recycled and there are no more junk yards where cars are just parked in rows in the open air.

Environmental legislation is very strict and old cars have been recycled for a long time now.

That is of course also a reason why it is harder and harder to find parts for, for example, a car from the 80s and 90s. They are all recycled.

Extracting the raw materials for making batteries is of course the next point of discussion.

We know and have experienced that petroleum has a major impact on the environment, both during the extraction of petroleum and during transport to the refineries.

Burning fuel  to extract the energy is polluting, in the past much more than today, but there used to be much fewer cars than now.

The solution for our individual transport is not yet known, otherwise it would have been applied a long time ago and the discussion about pollution would not have existed, unless one wants a means of transport that works on muscle power such as a horse and cart or bicycle.

Only time and progress will let us know in the future what the right way is, but in the meantime we as classic car enthusiasts can simply ensure that our environmental impact is as small as possible by properly maintaining our cars.

We in Europe have LPG (liquid petroleum gas) that makes it possible to drive by installing an additional installation in the car.

The octane content is high and the pollution during combustion is much less.

There will probably be the possibility in the future to build a similar installation in our antique cars and drive with hydrogen, who knows?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rocketraider]

Hmm. Battery disposal, fire risk, current support infrastructure inadequate. Add in unanticipated items like: homeowner fire insurance premiums, fire department training and equipment expense, upgrading homeowner electrical systems to allow charging at home, no charging access at rental properties...

 

This was in this week's local news. Volunteer fire companies are already stretched thin in personnel and budget and in order to effectively fight EV-related fires they'll have to purchase expensive one-use equipment. Between that and risk of house fires watch your insurance premiums go stratospheric.

 

https://wset.com/news/local/fire-departments-gear-up-with-new-tools-to-tackle-electric-vehicle-fires-edison-electric-institute-united-states-fire-administration-bristol-virginia-fire-department-captain-brandon-moore-fire-cloak-emergency-plug#

 

Yet the people pushing for total EV conversion still won't slow down. 

 

I learned long ago it's impossible to reason with zealots and ideologues.

[rocketraider]

9 hours ago, demco32 said:

 and drive with hydrogen

Having handled a lot of liquid and gaseous hydrogen over the past 45 years, I can assure you hydrogen comes with its own set of issues. #1 being explosivity. Way more so than petroleum products or battery metals.

[joe_padavano]

There are a number of ongoing development efforts for safe H2 storage in vehicles. The bigger problem is safe refueling.

[auburnseeker]

I want to know the undesired effects and byproducts of battery recycling as well as the amount of energy required to do so as well.  We need to factor in everything to see the true picture then have all the information to decide if this is the way we should go or are there better option? 

 

Especially considering the mining needed for the rare earths for the Ev's.   

 

Seems all we have been told have been a bunch of half truths and only given partial information. We should probably also consider the reliability of the supply,  especially if the supplier cuts us off because of rising tensions on many fronts. 

 

Even if we have the rare materials here are we going to be allowed to mine them?  Do we want to then open up that can of environmental worms on our soil?  Easy to be green when all the pollution from the process is on someone elses shore where we don't see it.

 

It's also easy for govt's to make the population buy new cars when they force you to scrap the existing parts supply to repair your current car.  I wonder if the push for no open air junk yards was environmental or something else?  One has to wonder now with the way things have been exposing their ugly head over the last few years.

[ABear]

12 hours ago, demco32 said:

I don't know about the USA, but in Europe batteries are recycled

EV batteries?

 

Got a source for that?

 

Best I can find is a few small upstart Lithium EV battery recycling companies word wide and pretty much all small scale recycling when compared to how many vehicles world wide will eventually have Large Lithium batteries which will need to be replaced every 8-15 yrs..

 

One of the largest ones I could find is one called Li-Cycle and even they are not going to cut it down the road.. They claim they will be able to process 100,000 Tonnes of Lithium batteries which translates to 220462262 lbs and at say 1,500 lbs per EV battery that is 146,974 EV batteries per yr.

 

Recovery of materials in EV Lithium batteries is pretty poor at best for most of the important materials and results in about 35% of unrecoverable "black" waste..

 

Breaking down Lithium batteries to basic materials also consumes large quantities of energy, additional chemicals and purifying. Very costly and wasteful process and does not scale up economically. In reality, it is cheaper to mine and process raw materials to build a new Lithium battery than what it cost to recycle one.

 

Now if you are talking lead acid auto batteries, recovery rate is on the order of 95% or a bit greater and takes far, far less energy to recycle.

 

As far as recycling entire autos, yes that has been done in the US for many yrs, junk yards will pick apart vehicles for usable used parts to resell, the remaining body and parts that are not worth the cost of picking and saving is crushed, then sent to a recycler that shreds the vehicle and the machine sorts out plastics and metals and those materials are sent to proper places for adding into new metals and plastics.

 

At this time, we as human race across the entire world are writing checks that we can't cash, as time goes on there will be massive piles of Lithium EV batteries that will have to be disposed of whether it is buried in a underground storage bunker like is done with used spent atomic reactor fuel or just left sitting in massive warehouses just waiting for the day to be processed or creating a massive Lithium fire in someones backyard.

[demco32]

On 6/7/2024 at 8:51 PM, ABear said:

EV batteries?

 

Got a source for that?

 

Best I can find is a few small upstart Lithium EV battery recycling companies word wide and pretty much all small scale recycling when compared to how many vehicles world wide will eventually have Large Lithium batteries which will need to be replaced every 8-15 yrs..

 

One of the largest ones I could find is one called Li-Cycle and even they are not going to cut it down the road.. They claim they will be able to process 100,000 Tonnes of Lithium batteries which translates to 220462262 lbs and at say 1,500 lbs per EV battery that is 146,974 EV batteries per yr.

 

Recovery of materials in EV Lithium batteries is pretty poor at best for most of the important materials and results in about 35% of unrecoverable "black" waste..

 

Breaking down Lithium batteries to basic materials also consumes large quantities of energy, additional chemicals and purifying. Very costly and wasteful process and does not scale up economically. In reality, it is cheaper to mine and process raw materials to build a new Lithium battery than what it cost to recycle one.

 

Now if you are talking lead acid auto batteries, recovery rate is on the order of 95% or a bit greater and takes far, far less energy to recycle.

 

As far as recycling entire autos, yes that has been done in the US for many yrs, junk yards will pick apart vehicles for usable used parts to resell, the remaining body and parts that are not worth the cost of picking and saving is crushed, then sent to a recycler that shreds the vehicle and the machine sorts out plastics and metals and those materials are sent to proper places for adding into new metals and plastics.

 

At this time, we as human race across the entire world are writing checks that we can't cash, as time goes on there will be massive piles of Lithium EV batteries that will have to be disposed of whether it is buried in a underground storage bunker like is done with used spent atomic reactor fuel or just left sitting in massive warehouses just waiting for the day to be processed or creating a massive Lithium fire in someones backyard.

As I have already indicated, I do not know for the USA, but with us in Belgium everything is collected and recycled.

https://www.bebat.be/nl/recycleren

Dutch langue.

 

Lithium

Herlaadbare lithium batterijen zijn zeer populaire batterijen voor allerlei draagbare toestellen. Vrijwel elk jaar worden nieuwe types herlaadbare lithium batterijen op de markt gebracht. De recyclagetechnologie moet hierdoor uiteraard ook regelmatig aangepast worden. De eerste herlaadbare lithium batterijen bevatten relatief veel kobalt, maar dit is in de nieuwste generaties nauwelijks nog het geval.

Lithium batterijen worden eerst gesorteerd, gedemonteerd, geschredderd en tot slot gezeefd. Daarna worden via pyrometallurgische en/of hydrometallurgische processen verschillende metalen gerecupereerd. In de praktijk ligt de focus bij de recyclage van deze batterijen op het recupereren van ijzer, kobalt, koper, nikkel en aluminium. De metalen dienen opnieuw als grondstoffen voor diverse industrieën. 

-translation of the same text-

Lithium
Rechargeable lithium batteries are very popular batteries for all kinds of portable devices. Almost every year, new types of rechargeable lithium batteries are introduced to the market. As a result, recycling technology must, of course, also be updated regularly. The first rechargeable lithium batteries contained relatively high levels of cobalt, but this is hardly the case in the latest generations.

Lithium batteries are first sorted, disassembled, shredded and finally sieved. Then, through pyrometallurgical and/or hydrometallurgical processes, various metals are recovered. In practice, the focus in recycling these batteries is on recovering iron, cobalt, copper, nickel and aluminum. The metals again serve as raw materials for various industries. 

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

I don't think small companies can manage such processes, the investments are enormous!

Umicore is very big factory.

https://www.umicore.com/en/newsroom/news/umicore-battery-recycling/#:~:text=Our unique recycling process uses,) and a lithium-concentrate.

What is the Umicore recycling process?

Our unique recycling process uses a smart combination of pyro- and hydro-metallurgy. In the pyro-metallurgy stage, our robust high temperature smelting technology converts the end-of-life battery or battery production scraps into a metal alloy (containing cobalt, nickel, and copper) and a lithium-concentrate.

 

I hope this information can answer your question.

I'm just a car mechanic and not a chemist.

I live in Ghent near the Volvo car factories, where a factory has recently been added to build batteries for EV cars.

 

Regarding the recycling of complete cars.

Cars have not been pressed for quite some time, but are first completely depolluted and dismantled,

then whatever is left is ground into small pieces that can be fused

There is also a large factory in the port area where this is done.

For a year now you have been required to have a special environmental permit to trade in scrapped cars, which is particularly strict.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9 by demco32 (see edit history)

[demco32]

9 minutes ago, demco32 said:

As I have already indicated, I do not know for the USA, but with us in Belgium everything is collected and recycled.

https://www.bebat.be/nl/recycleren

Dutch langue.

 

Lithium

Herlaadbare lithium batterijen zijn zeer populaire batterijen voor allerlei draagbare toestellen. Vrijwel elk jaar worden nieuwe types herlaadbare lithium batterijen op de markt gebracht. De recyclagetechnologie moet hierdoor uiteraard ook regelmatig aangepast worden. De eerste herlaadbare lithium batterijen bevatten relatief veel kobalt, maar dit is in de nieuwste generaties nauwelijks nog het geval.

Lithium batterijen worden eerst gesorteerd, gedemonteerd, geschredderd en tot slot gezeefd. Daarna worden via pyrometallurgische en/of hydrometallurgische processen verschillende metalen gerecupereerd. In de praktijk ligt de focus bij de recyclage van deze batterijen op het recupereren van ijzer, kobalt, koper, nikkel en aluminium. De metalen dienen opnieuw als grondstoffen voor diverse industrieën. 

-translation of the same text-

Lithium
Rechargeable lithium batteries are very popular batteries for all kinds of portable devices. Almost every year, new types of rechargeable lithium batteries are introduced to the market. As a result, recycling technology must, of course, also be updated regularly. The first rechargeable lithium batteries contained relatively high levels of cobalt, but this is hardly the case in the latest generations.

Lithium batteries are first sorted, disassembled, shredded and finally sieved. Then, through pyrometallurgical and/or hydrometallurgical processes, various metals are recovered. In practice, the focus in recycling these batteries is on recovering iron, cobalt, copper, nickel and aluminum. The metals again serve as raw materials for various industries. 

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

I don't think small companies can manage such processes, the investments are enormous!

Umicore is very big factory.

https://www.umicore.com/en/newsroom/news/umicore-battery-recycling/#:~:text=Our unique recycling process uses,) and a lithium-concentrate.

What is the Umicore recycling process?

Our unique recycling process uses a smart combination of pyro- and hydro-metallurgy. In the pyro-metallurgy stage, our robust high temperature smelting technology converts the end-of-life battery or battery production scraps into a metal alloy (containing cobalt, nickel, and copper) and a lithium-concentrate.

 

I hope this information can answer your question.

I'm just a car mechanic and not a chemist.

I live in Ghent near the Volvo car factories, where a factory has recently been added to build batteries for EV cars.

 

Regarding the recycling of complete cars.

Cars have not been pressed for quite some time, but are first completely depolluted and dismantled,

then whatever is left is ground into small pieces that can be fused

There is also a large factory in the port area where this is done.

For a year now you have been required to have a special environmental permit to trade in scrapped cars, which is particularly strict.

 

 

 

 

 

 

These factories have built very large wind turbines to produce green energy for their production processes, which already generate most of their energy consumption, together with solar panels.

I am not a fan of all those EV cars, but all the major car manufacturers are building more and more of these cars. most of them like BMW, Mercedes, Volvo etc... won't be building any other cars in a few years.

 

[ABear]

55 minutes ago, demco32 said:

Our unique recycling process uses a smart combination of pyro- and hydro-metallurgy. In the pyro-metallurgy stage, our robust high temperature smelting technology converts the end-of-life battery or battery production scraps into a metal alloy (containing cobalt, nickel, and copper) and a lithium-concentrate.

Hate to break this to you, you and many others have been bamboozled as that is not 100% recycled and is not usable in that form as raw material for new batteries.

 

To use that alloy to build completely 100% new Lithium batteries that alloy MUST be broken down further until you get pure cobalt, nickle, copper and lithium.

 

It is waste material until it is broke back down to the raw materials and to do that takes a lot of energy and chemicals and even then there will still be waste in the stream.

 

In other words, it takes far more energy, time and additional chemical processing than what the sum of the materials are worth and in the end you now have additional hazardous waste that must be processed or disposed in landfills.

 

Everyone has been bamboozled into thinking that EVs will somehow save the world, the reality is, mining and refining raw materials for Lithium batteries in of it's self is a very energy intense process, it is a very dirty process, it requires vast tracts of land to be mined (IE deep open pits, deep shaft or deep well extraction) which most of these material needed are in countries with slave labor and absolutely no, zero, zilch regulations as to waste and environmental considerations.

 

Just because it isn't happening in your backyard doesn't make it clean or good for the environment.

 

56 minutes ago, demco32 said:

These factories have built very large wind turbines to produce green energy for their production processes, which already generate most of their energy consumption, together with solar panels.

 

Wind turbines are not a dependable source of power and neither is solar panels and rely on having more batteries to store the power until needed. Once again a very wasteful process (each time you change energy from one form to another you waste energy in doing so in the form of waste heat).

 

Building windturbines come with a lot of environmental waste in the production phase, lots of toxic and hazardous chemicals are used to make the fiberglass nacelles (blades). Fiberglass and resins is prone to sun AND wind damage and turbine life is pretty short even with constant routine maintenance.

 

Making solar panels is also a very energy intense process and a lot of highly toxic metals, chemicals and gasses are used that. They are not clean by any means, but once again people cling to the idea that it is clean since it isn't done in their backyard it must be clean and good for the environment.

 

Ask yourself a honest question..

 

Would you like and embrace a windturbine manufacturer, a solar panel manufacturer, a lithium, cobalt, copper mine with highly toxic materials being handled and/or emitted right next door to your home?

 

I know my answer, absolutely not.

 

You do not have to be a "scientist, chemical engineer or a rocket scientist" to understand that each time we make something there is huge amounts of negative impact somewhere in the system of making stuff. Some intentional some not.

 

Newtons Third Law Of Motion states..

 

HERE

 

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs."

 

While Newtons Third Law is typically used for motion, it actually applies to all aspects of life, motion, chemical, ect.

 

Many scientific research papers are actually faked, do some research about "papermills", these are publishing companies who have made a huge profit writing and publishing scientific papers as a third party and then publishing those papers often with no scientific facts or wrong assumptions.. Papermills even go as far as even citing their fake papers in other research papers to bolster the credibility of the research.  It is believed about 1.5% to 2% of every scientific paper published are done by papermills, but some recent research has suggested that may be far higher at 30%..

 

Research money is at the heart of papermills faked papers, schools and scientists get research money via the amount of papers they publish, the more research papers they write, the bigger the grant money they get.. Follow the money..

 

We as a human race, have been moving towards making this world far, far less habitable for many generations to come instead of making it better.. We are trying to remove carbon from the atmosphere, we NEED carbon in the atmosphere in order for trees, plants and even humans to live.. We are talking about a concentration of carbon in the atmosphere at .044% and trying to lower it to .040%, we do not know what will happen when or if that is lowered.. Scientists do not know, they have no way of knowing as the earth has it's own cycles for tens of thousands of yrs including several ice ages..

 

And by the way, if we do not extract carbon (crude and natural gas), the earth WILL eject it as it did before we learned how to drill and extract crude and natural gas.. Technically, we ARE controlling when and where those carbon emissions happen in a controlled fashion.

[rocketraider]

@ABear Finally. SOMEONE gets it.

 

I'll add that grant money is often awarded with the expectation that the research will produce and justify the results the grantor expects.

 

I retired from a 37-year career in the electric power industry. All of us knew the infrastructure to support total electric everything is simply not there. Not yet, and likely not anytime soon.

 

One of my favorite powerplant expressions was "nothing is impossible to the individual who doesn't have to make it happen".

[ABear]

rocketrader, sadly I am a voice of just one that is willing to speak up when I see things that just are not quite right.

 

I am sure there must be many others out there that do "get it" but the view that EVs will not fix what is wrong with the world has been intentionally drowned out by those few seeking fame, fortune, wealth, power over others.

 

One must ask the question, can man REALLY affect or change the worlds environment for good or bad by burning dead Dinos?

 

At least at this point in time, Dino juice is most likely far more environmentally safe than all of the materials used in making EV sized batteries and the later resulting trash from spent EV sized batteries..

 

Dino juice IS natural, the earth continues to make it (I remember 40 yrs ago it was claimed we would run out of crude in 20 yrs which did not happen). Dino juice flowed out in cracks and fissures in the earth often creating natural tar pits.

 

I remember many yrs ago that R12 and R22 was blamed for making the Ozone go away and making the climate hotter. Reality is, scientists had recently discovered a fluctuation in the Ozone layer due to new developments in sensors and blamed the easiest thing they could for the change without regard to the Earths processes over the thousands of yrs before.. Did the Earth cool and weather get better since R12 and R22 was banned, no. Did the Ozone pattern change, yes, however, was the change more due to normal Earth cycles or R12 and R22 banned, no one really knows, but folks now claim that was the problem but in reality, more likely normal Earth pattern cycles..

 

Time to get off my soapbox before I get banned..

 

 

[trimacar]

Here's the fallacy in the whole electric vehicle will save the world theory.

 

Electricity is not a power source.  It is merely a CARRIER of power, electricity cannot generate itself.

 

Thus, any electric vehicle relies on an energy source, not electricity, to be charged.

 

Right now a majority of power comes from fossil fuel, 70% or more.  EV is not addressing a problem, just adding to it.

[Su8overdrive]

Overpopulation is adding to it, Trimacar.   This is why every poll of scientists has them agreeing overpopulation remains our by far biggest problem, their words, "bigger than climate."   Again, if we're serious about our future, that's how we triage, that's our focus.  All else is just more us/them, preaching to the choir, "rounding up the usual suspects,"  Band Aids on the  patient  hemorrhaging in the ER. 

Capitol switchboard 24/7: (202) 224-3121

https://www.vaticanrome.it/contact/

 

Parsing, quibbling, yeah butting on forums like this is just spinning our wheels.

[joe_padavano]

3 hours ago, trimacar said:

Right now a majority of power comes from fossil fuel, 70% or more.  EV is not addressing a problem, just adding to it.

In the US that number is currently 60% and dropping.

 

Edited June 10 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[demco32]

8 hours ago, ABear said:

Hate to break this to you, you and many others have been bamboozled as that is not 100% recycled and is not usable in that form as raw material for new batteries.

 

To use that alloy to build completely 100% new Lithium batteries that alloy MUST be broken down further until you get pure cobalt, nickle, copper and lithium.

 

It is waste material until it is broke back down to the raw materials and to do that takes a lot of energy and chemicals and even then there will still be waste in the stream.

 

In other words, it takes far more energy, time and additional chemical processing than what the sum of the materials are worth and in the end you now have additional hazardous waste that must be processed or disposed in landfills.

 

Everyone has been bamboozled into thinking that EVs will somehow save the world, the reality is, mining and refining raw materials for Lithium batteries in of it's self is a very energy intense process, it is a very dirty process, it requires vast tracts of land to be mined (IE deep open pits, deep shaft or deep well extraction) which most of these material needed are in countries with slave labor and absolutely no, zero, zilch regulations as to waste and environmental considerations.

 

Just because it isn't happening in your backyard doesn't make it clean or good for the environment.

 

 

Wind turbines are not a dependable source of power and neither is solar panels and rely on having more batteries to store the power until needed. Once again a very wasteful process (each time you change energy from one form to another you waste energy in doing so in the form of waste heat).

 

Building windturbines come with a lot of environmental waste in the production phase, lots of toxic and hazardous chemicals are used to make the fiberglass nacelles (blades). Fiberglass and resins is prone to sun AND wind damage and turbine life is pretty short even with constant routine maintenance.

 

Making solar panels is also a very energy intense process and a lot of highly toxic metals, chemicals and gasses are used that. They are not clean by any means, but once again people cling to the idea that it is clean since it isn't done in their backyard it must be clean and good for the environment.

 

Ask yourself a honest question..

 

Would you like and embrace a windturbine manufacturer, a solar panel manufacturer, a lithium, cobalt, copper mine with highly toxic materials being handled and/or emitted right next door to your home?

 

I know my answer, absolutely not.

 

You do not have to be a "scientist, chemical engineer or a rocket scientist" to understand that each time we make something there is huge amounts of negative impact somewhere in the system of making stuff. Some intentional some not.

 

Newtons Third Law Of Motion states..

 

HERE

 

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs."

 

While Newtons Third Law is typically used for motion, it actually applies to all aspects of life, motion, chemical, ect.

 

Many scientific research papers are actually faked, do some research about "papermills", these are publishing companies who have made a huge profit writing and publishing scientific papers as a third party and then publishing those papers often with no scientific facts or wrong assumptions.. Papermills even go as far as even citing their fake papers in other research papers to bolster the credibility of the research.  It is believed about 1.5% to 2% of every scientific paper published are done by papermills, but some recent research has suggested that may be far higher at 30%..

 

Research money is at the heart of papermills faked papers, schools and scientists get research money via the amount of papers they publish, the more research papers they write, the bigger the grant money they get.. Follow the money..

 

We as a human race, have been moving towards making this world far, far less habitable for many generations to come instead of making it better.. We are trying to remove carbon from the atmosphere, we NEED carbon in the atmosphere in order for trees, plants and even humans to live.. We are talking about a concentration of carbon in the atmosphere at .044% and trying to lower it to .040%, we do not know what will happen when or if that is lowered.. Scientists do not know, they have no way of knowing as the earth has it's own cycles for tens of thousands of yrs including several ice ages..

 

And by the way, if we do not extract carbon (crude and natural gas), the earth WILL eject it as it did before we learned how to drill and extract crude and natural gas.. Technically, we ARE controlling when and where those carbon emissions happen in a controlled fashion.

As I said, I'm not a chemist.

all I know is that everything is recycled and the very large companies make the investments to turn waste into a usable raw material.

I have also already indicated that I am personally not a fan of EV cars, but I fear that the change from petrol/diesel cars to EV cars cannot be stopped.

Nothing can match the feeling of driving our antique cars with a petrol engine, even if you were to install an electric motor.

 

[auburnseeker]

The change can be stopped.  Just put the right people in charge and start investigating the driving force behind the change.  Cut the subsidies as well.  That alone will hault the change.  Most of the change is being pushed through, via mandates.   They can be reversed much easier than actual laws.

 

Put someone with common sense in charge and you will see alot of things change.   Harder to do overseas and getting harder over here as they are setting ways up to protect themselves in the future from edicts they make today.

[ABear]

10 hours ago, demco32 said:

As I said, I'm not a chemist.

all I know is that everything is recycled and the very large companies make the investments to turn waste into a usable raw material.

I have also already indicated that I am personally not a fan of EV cars, but I fear that the change from petrol/diesel cars to EV cars cannot be stopped.

Nothing can match the feeling of driving our antique cars with a petrol engine, even if you were to install an electric motor.

You do not have to be a "chemist" to speak up.

 

It takes people to question the ideas which are presented when the idea just doesn't line up with knowledge.

 

There are a lot of real facts which are conveniently omitted when it comes to EVs and supposed lack of pollution. The only facts that is right that has been used to push EV adoption is lack of "tailpipe" emissions and efficiency of the motor is higher, but all that does is push the emissions elsewhere. Those emissions pushed elsewhere have other ramifications down the road in the form of much more hazardous waste.

 

As far as motor efficiency goes, that to is a red herring, while it is true ICE engines convert a lot of the gas energy to heat, BUT electric motors also turn electricity to heat although at a lower rate, there is more than the electric motor heat waste when you take the entire electrical system heat loss into consideration (a fact that is conveniently ignored).

 

Newtons Third Law of Motion also applies to electrical systems.

 

Each time you change something from one form to another, there is energy loss in the form of heat.

 

For instance, to generate electricity, you must put MORE energy into the plant to get electricity out. But the amount of energy that the plant can provide is LESS than the energy that was put in to it.. That loss is heat.

 

Now, you have to get that energy from the plant to your home, the electricity voltage is boosted to reduce voltage loss through a low to high voltage transformer (the transformer adds some loss of energy in the form of heat). The transmission lines have resistance, resistance causes a loss of energy in the form of heat. There will be transformer substations along the way which add more loss in heat.

 

At your home there will be transformers which take the high voltage and convert to a usable voltage on your end.. Yep, loss of energy in the form of heat. Even in your home your wiring losses energy in the form of heat.. Charger for the car battery, loss of energy in the form of heat..

 

The battery in the car, yep, loss of energy in the form of heat (battery stores the electric via chemical reactions).  When you go to use the EV, the battery uses chemical reactions to present a voltage output and there is a loss of energy in that process. The vehicle must control the voltages going to the motors and the electronics in that controller have a loss of energy in the form of heat.

 

Even regenerative braking has losses in the form of heat which means you get far less than 100% energy recovery..

 

As I pointed out, the alloy that comes from the company you mentioned, is not "raw" material, it is an alloy which is a combination of two or more dissimilar metals or materials.

 

In order for it to be usable in new Lithium batteries it must be further refined (IE broken down to the initial high purity refined raw materials. As a alloy, it is impure and impurities are what causes Lithium battery failures and some failures are pretty spectacular fires. Impurities in the raw materials for Lithium batteries can cause breaches between layers causing shorts or overheating of the batteries.

 

There is nothing that is 100% recycled, in the process of recycling there IS waste materials which cannot be recycled. Some items it may get close to 95% and some less than 50% recovery.

 

As far as 100% EV down the road, the only way that will happen is by being forced to do so and as long as people stand silent or are silenced by those in power it will happen.

 

However, if people start questioning validity of the possible 30% fake scientific papers and start speaking up, things right now can be changed much more easily than later.

 

I do believe that EV can and will have some valid usage in the near future, but it is a pretty limited method of transportation due to battery energy storage technology just not as good as liquid fuels storage. You can pack a lot of energy in liquid fuels in a small light weight space compared to a battery and to get a battery that can store the same amount of energy as liquid fuels you would have a vehicle that weighs the same as a empty semi truck.

[demco32]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:18 PM, auburnseeker said:

The change can be stopped.  Just put the right people in charge and start investigating the driving force behind the change.  Cut the subsidies as well.  That alone will hault the change.  Most of the change is being pushed through, via mandates.   They can be reversed much easier than actual laws.

 

Put someone with common sense in charge and you will see alot of things change.   Harder to do overseas and getting harder over here as they are setting ways up to protect themselves in the future from edicts they make today.

This takes us far from what or what this forum is for, but I want to respond briefly because just as those in Europe do not really understand much about some decisions in the US, it will be the same for the average American about Europe.

Nothing could be further from the truth, we just had elections and that won't change anything.

The problem is that as a party you must have a majority to govern and effectively implement changes.

There are so many different parties that it is never possible for 1 party to obtain an absolute majority and one must always work together with other parties to achieve a majority.

So nothing can almost ever change effectively, apart from some minor shifts in legislation.

With the introduction of "Europe" this is no longer possible because everything is decided above our heads, no country can any longer decide anything essential for itself.

In 2019, Usula von der Leyen came to power in the European Parliament.

In her opening speech she said: "I am going to make Europe the first CO2 free continent!!"

It is incomprehensible that one person can decide such a thing with her political party.

What is really behind it will not be known to the ordinary hard working man, but even though there is a lot of protest, nothing will change about that decision.

 

 

 

[auburnseeker]

Well hopefully in the US we are not lost yet.  Days I have my doubts then we have shimmers of light / hope.  Even the most evil tyrants find themselves at the end of a rope one day,  when the populace in general has had enough.  Europe and US just hasn't had enough yet.

 

More eyes open as the failures of these policies come out.  Lets hope enough people are starting to pay attention.

[ABear]

On 6/12/2024 at 2:20 AM, demco32 said:

With the introduction of "Europe" this is no longer possible because everything is decided above our heads, no country can any longer decide anything essential for itself.

In 2019, Usula von der Leyen came to power in the European Parliament.

In her opening speech she said: "I am going to make Europe the first CO2 free continent!!"

It is incomprehensible that one person can decide such a thing with her political party.

What is really behind it will not be known to the ordinary hard working man, but even though there is a lot of protest, nothing will change about that decision.

While Europe's system is different than USA's system, one can still make themselves heard.

 

Physical sitdown protests don't really work now days, gets attention, but it is very negative attention for a few short seconds in life.

 

No, need a new approach.

 

Now, if one could get thousands or tens of thousands of folks to start sending letters, notes concerning the issues at hand to those in office, tying up the officials time and resources you might get somewhere especially if it continues for long periods of time..

 

Now days with the speed of the Internet, I am sure a movement could grow quickly to make a difference.

 

Burying your head in the sand or putting your fingers in your ears while yelling La, La, La loudly is what they depend on.

 

 

 

[TTR]

WT* ?
 

You guys still harping about this nonsense?

 

What does this has to do with antique cars, other than I can imagine 100+ years ago when some of ours were still in daily use, new or not even thought of yet and all the old curmudgeons still wanting to rely on their trusted horse drawn carriages, getting together at a town hall (or perhaps it was in the home of the village idiot ?) accusing all motorized vehicles bringing apocalyptic destruction to the world with all the pollution they create.

 

Some of those curmudgeons probably wanted to send “text messages” to their supposed representatives at various government offices. 
And did it work or did they just wasted their time and ink ?

[auburnseeker]

 Because any legislation enacted and any direction policy is pushed should be carefully watched and vetted so they don't slip anything in that will affect the way we enjoy,  repair or even have the ability to own our antique cars.  

 

Give them an inch and they will take a mile.  If you don't believe that Compare many things in our society with just 20 years ago.  Think of how many unrelated things have been slipped into key funding bills,  that no one knows the ramifications of until they have been passed. 

 

There are reasons 1000 page bills push through in the dark of the night with no time to review.

[ABear]

38 minutes ago, TTR said:

What does this has to do with antique cars, other than I can imagine 100+ years ago when some of ours were still in daily use, new or not even thought of yet and all the old curmudgeons still wanting to rely on their trusted horse drawn carriages, getting together at a town hall (or perhaps it was in the home of the village idiot ?) accusing all motorized vehicles bringing apocalyptic destruction to the world with all the pollution they create.

100 yrs ago, we not only had "horse and buggy" but steam powered vehicles, ICE (gas/kerosene) AND EV vehicles. Each having it's own strong points and weak points.

 

One by one as time went by the various versions went by the way of the do do bird until we had only ICE (gas/kerosene) as the ultimate winner.

 

It was done by natural attrition and not by some arbitrary person/person's ideology.

 

It was not forced.

 

was ICE "perfect" then or now, no, but neither is everyone being forced to eventually put out to pasture their ICE powered vehicles. The mere fact that one is able to run vintage steam, vintage ICE and vintage EV TODAY if one wanted to is called CHOICE.

 

The cold hard facts are, eventually you will not have a CHOICE.

 

Why will I not have a choice?

 

The end goal of the current movement will ultimately remove liquid fuels from the face of the earth and the only choice you will have is a EV or EV Mass transit.

 

You should be concerned as ultimately it will affect everyone, it will affect everyone's life, it will affect everyone's cost of living.

 

As it is, the cost of my electric bills over just the last three yrs has risen dramatically, 4 rate increases in three yrs has jumped my winter electric bill from $50 to $130 (I heat with gas and wood) and summer from $80 to $200.. KWhrs I use is pretty flat over that time period as I do track the numbers.

 

The current movement has not only been slowly trying to get all vehicles to be EV, they have been working in the background to force all electric homes on everyone..

 

Growing up, the mantra was ALWAYS about conserving energy, turn off items not in use, use as little as possible, heck incadescent bulbs have been banned, CFLs were the greatest, now, not so much and now LEDs are pretty much all you can get other than a few specialty bulbs that LEDs won't work at..

 

And now we are being told to "plug in" our vehicles..

 

I would hate to see what my electric bill will look like with 3 EVs plugged in and have to rely on electric heat in the winter.

 

My ICE vehicles cost almost nothing to run for the miles we are driving, typically fill up every other month and sometimes once every two months.. Yeah, when I was working I was filling up weekly but with EV I would have had to plug it in every single night and HOPE it was charged enough to get me back and forth to work each day.

 

You have CHOICE now and today, tomorrow, if no one speaks up, not so much.

[auburnseeker]

Unfortunately I don't think many have thought hard about the battery waste we are going to generate when everything is Electric.  All hand and yard tools,  mowers, even alot of construction equipment, snowblowers etc.  Then figure in power sports as well.  Before we get into the heavy duty applications which will require enormous batteries. 

 

Has anyone even given any of this thought,  or how is there going be enough raw materials to make all the batteries required for a full switch over. 

 

Not to mention the power storage facilities that will be required for the green energy as it's only produced during certain times. 

 

Solar power in a state where I have seen no sun for 1 month in the winter,  where temperatures rarely got above freezing for the whole month.   I remember celebrating that day when the sun did finally come out. 

 

Seems like a serious recipe for disaster,  but what do I know.

 

I believe all new construction in NY after 2025 is suppose to be electric heat and or heat pumps, At minimum,  no natural gas,  but I have read they have a hard time keeping up temperature when it's 0 and below out with a heat pump.

 

 

[CarNucopia]

The good news is, bad ideas can only hide in the marketplace so long. We are on the cusp of the day of reconning for those pushing an EV future.

 

Hopefully, mandates will be dialed back. This would likely reduce the impact on vintage cars since they are swept up in the movement, not generally the target.

 

Virginia Will Exit California Electric Vehicle Mandate at End of Year

 

A Shocking Number of American EV Drivers Want to Return to Gas Cars

 

AAA surveys say EV vehicle sales are down as hybrids bridge the gap for consumers

 

VW is cutting jobs at its German EV factory because demand is plunging

 

Ford slims down dealership EV requirements after pushback

 

General Motors Cut Its 2024 EV Sales Goal Over Demand Concerns

 

Tesla to cut more than 6,000 jobs in Texas, California, notices show

 

[ABear]

For those that do not understand the negative impact of forcing EV in to mainstream use, consider the following small snippets of what is really happening to arrive at making Lithium batteries..

 

text in italics is quoted from the websites and plain text is my comments..

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01735-z

2021 article..

 

"Around one-third of the world’s lithium — the major component of the batteries — comes from salt flats in Argentina and Chile, where the material is mined using huge quantities of water in an otherwise arid area. Battery-grade lithium can also be produced by exposing the material to very high temperatures — a process used in China and Australia — which consumes large quantities of energy. There are ways to extract lithium more sustainably: in Germany and the United Kingdom, for example, pilot projects are filtering lithium from hot brines beneath granite rock.

 

Cobalt is an important part of a battery’s electrode, but around 70% of this element is found in just one country: the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC). Around 90% of the DRC’s cobalt comes from its industrial mines (90,000 tonnes annually). But in a country where people earn, on average, less than $1,200 annually, the world’s demand for cobalt has attracted thousands of individuals and small businesses, called artisanal miners — and child labour and unsafe working practices are rife.

 

NOTE: the following bolded text is addressing Demco32s EU current state of Lithium battery recycling.

 

The European Union, for example, requires companies to collect batteries at the end of their life and either repurpose them or dismantle them for recycling. The current requirement is for 45% of the EU’s used batteries to be collected — but few of these are lithium-ion batteries. This is partly because such batteries are often built into the devices they power and are hard to dismantle, or the devices themselves are valuable, which means they are likely to be exported for resale and disappear from the EU unreported. Meanwhile, the EU is considering a 70% target for batteries to be collected by 2030. In addition, it wants 4% of the lithium in new batteries made in the EU to be from recycled material by 2030, increasing to 10% by 2035."

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara

 

2023 article

 

"Smartphones, computers and electric vehicles may be emblems of the modern world, but, says Siddharth Kara, their rechargeable batteries are frequently powered by cobalt mined by workers laboring in slave-like conditions in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

although the DRC has more cobalt reserves than the rest of the planet combined, there's no such thing as a "clean" supply chain of cobalt from the country.

much of the DRC's cobalt is being extracted by so-called "artisanal" miners — freelance workers who do extremely dangerous labor for the equivalent of just a few dollars a day.

 

mining industry has ravaged the landscape of the DRC. Millions of trees have been cut down, the air around mines is hazy with dust and grit, and the water has been contaminated with toxic effluents from the mining processing. What's more, he says, "Cobalt is toxic to touch and breathe — and there are hundreds of thousands of poor Congolese people touching and breathing it day in and day out. Young mothers with babies strapped to their backs, all breathing in this toxic cobalt dust."  "

 

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2023/01/18/the-paradox-of-lithium/

 

2023 article

 

"With this knowledge should come responsibility — towards the environment and future generations. We must not fall into the same traps from which we are trying to free ourselves.

Together with the powerful “curative” and “palliative” qualities of lithium on the effects of climate change, it is necessary to consider the potential “side effects” and communicate them in transparent manner. These side effects include: use of large quantities of water and related pollution; potential increase in carbon dioxide emissions; production of large quantities of mineral waste; increased respiratory problems; alteration of the hydrological cycle.

 

Obviously the economic interests at stake are enormous. Australia, Chile and China produce 90% of the world’s lithium. The global lithium market rapidly approaching $8 billion.

Let us consider, for example, electric cars. To give an idea of this effect, producing a battery weighing 1,100 pounds emits over 70% more carbon dioxide than producing a conventional car in Germany, according to research by the automotive consultancy Berylls Strategy Advisors.

Furthermore, lithium mining requires a lot of water. To extract one ton of lithium requires about 500,000 liters of water, and can result in the poisoning of reservoirs and related health problems."

 

And this is just a few articles which discuss the less earth friendly aspects of EVs.

 

If one really thinks EVs will save the world, one really needs to do some homework and research, basically EVs are much much less "carbon free" than what is being touted and the seedy side like creating far more toxic waste, environmental damage, loss of trees and other greenery, child labor, slave labor is being minimized in order to maximize a predetermined outcome for the few who make laws.

 

Dig deeper into how things are made, haven't discussed the environmental mess building millions and millions of solar panels will make (building solar panels require a lot of electrical energy, plus heavy metals, hazardous chemicals and gasses).

 

Not to mention there is an environmental impact that is conveniently called "localized heating" from vast tracts of solar panel farms creates that isn't being talked about or considered.. Solar panels only convert 20% of the solar energy that falls on them into usable power, 80% of that solar energy gets turned into HEAT! Some of that heat radiates to the earths atmosphere and some of that heat is local to the panels.. The result is still the same, we are now capturing MORE of the suns heat energy into the earth! We ARE making the climate hotter..

 

You want to make the earth better? Plant more trees! Trees capture carbon and they also COOL all at the same time instead of planting solar panels..

 

I know some folks at this time on this forum are saying to themselves (perhaps yelling it) that this has nothing to do with the car "hobby", well you are wrong, what happens now will vastly change the car collecting hobby for those who actually drive liquid fuel vehicles.  As we reach 100% EV adoption will mean that there will no longer be a need for liquid fuels stations..

 

One will have to ask themselves, where can I get a couple of gallons of liquid fuel?  Even if you can find it what  is available may cost more than your collector car is worth as it will no longer be feasible to refine it if there is near zero demand.

 

For those squeamish, don't look at the following pictures.

 

First is what a Lithium mine does to the Earth and the next is what Cobalt mining does plus shows how Cobalt is mined..