Wayne R Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Firstly , dear moderator if you are not happy with me placing this in the forum,--just remove it, i dont mind. When i lived in California i found these two articles in magazines ,one i have forgotten as you can see, the other the Economist, not sure of the years they were distributed but would have been about 25-30 years ago . But i remember on a few occasions i showed these at different car clubs i belong to then as i have owned lots makes and model classics, any way Rolls Royce purists did not like me showing these,--i got blasted a few times from RR owners. I know and realize the GM 400 transmission was used with a few variant changes, but the engine, never been sure , the silver cloud V8 6230 ci engine first from RR was from 1959 to 1965, a fabulous car and engine . Something different for you to read. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Anecdotal story on the PIII (a 447 Cube V12) was that the first version had less performance than the Buick they had in house. Which caused lots of consternation and design tweaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Which Buick engine was used? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 One of our chapter members was a Buick Service Rep in the 1960s. He has told us the story about when RR was considering using the THM400 automatic, they ordered some for inspection and use. At that time, the THM400 was known for its strength and shift smoooothness. So the story goes, they were disassembling the THM400 to see what was inside of it. They found "rough machining" in some of the fluid channels. Not desiring something so crude, they immediately started to polish them "as it should be in a car such as a RollsRoyce", they felt. Only thing was that when they had completed their enhancements, the shift performance degraded. "How could this be? We just made it better!" The phone lines between RR and GM got warmer. GM allegedly told them to use the transmission "as they received them" and all was well. And it was. RR also used the GM-Harrison A-6 air conditioning compressor, as it was the industry standard for smoooothness, too. At one point in time, back then, the RR regional office was in the same building that the GM Service Reps worked out of, so their cars were generally parked near the Buick vehicles. Bill related that sometimes they'd tease the RR reps with "How's that GM transmission working for y'all?" or "How's that GM a/c compressor working? Cool enough in the Texas heat?" The RR operatives knew full well what the Buick guys were talking about, but did not want to admit that THEIR cars had mundane GM items in them. The recent Rover V-8's heritage starts with the 1960s Buick 215 V-8 motor, which Rover bought to use in their cars. Even getting the GM engine designer (for his years prior to retirement) in the package, too. Rover made some upgrades in the oiling system to better handle how European drivers drove with manual transmissions, plus possibly some other changes to allow for the current engine displacements. The 215's later contributions led to later small Buick V-8s and the 3800 Series II Buick V-6s, too. It was not uncommon for the Detroit OEMs to covertly acquire competitors' vehicles to see what they were doing and how they did it. An article in the old CAR LIFE magazine detailed that, for example, if American Motors wanted to design a new convertible top mechanism, one of their engineering employees might rent an Impala convertible for a week (or weekend), then take it back to Engineering for dissection and analysis. Then put it all back together and return it at the end of the rental period. All nice, neat, and none-the-wiser for the rental company. There was obviously a LOT of "industrial espionage" going on in engines and transmissions, too, back then. There is a chapter in the DeLorean book about how he went into the executive lunchroom one day. His bosses had a lot of paperwork which had been "obtained" by a lower-level employee who had a friend at Ford. The GM people were gloating over what they had received. DeLorean scolded them for what they had, obviously motivating a low-level employee to do something that was against company policy. They scolded back, claiming that the employee (who probably felt he would get a promotion from his undercover work) had already been fired. GM also had their own high-level research and engineering operations for "advance propulsion methods", too. Some of these things later evolved into various GM carlines' production, where economically feasible, I suspect. On the YouTube Channel, "I DO CARS", the presenter dismantles engines to see what made them fail. Engines which come from vehicle salvage operations. I ran across an episode where he was taking apart a RR-type V-8 engine. It looked like it was from the very early 1970s, designed in the earlier 1960s, and modernized with early EFI and such. A higher-end orientation to assembly as it used cyl head studs rather than bolts. As the engine had never been apart in its 70+K miles of life, the head studs presented their own challenges to pulling the cyl heads off of the block. In MANY cases, it appeared the engine was designed to be robust enough to not need any work on its innards until it was "gone" (from decades of normal use, with any "abuse" being met with a "factory replacement motor"). In many cases, it was "robust engineering", but also "rather dated" at the same time, compared to what the USA brands were doing at the similar times, to me. Enjoy! NTX5467 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne R Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Which Buick engine was used? Ben Ben-not sure, but i have always known they were not nail head ,as i have sighted alot at shows, and a local member here in my club has a 65 silver cloud.- Silver Cloud is the last really supreme hand built cars from RR, here is a photo you decide. And the other problem was is hard to sight the engine , as most are black with heaps of accessories above and sides of engine. Edited June 1 by Wayne R (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Does not LOOK like a BUICK engine. More like a Chevrolet. What year is this from? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) I concur, I see more "Chevrolet" in that picture than anything else. As Chevrolet was GM's highest-volume car line, that also meant that their engines had to be easy to assemble with lower material costs. The front of the engine and valve covers follow the Chevrolet orientation in these areas. In order to get to the 378 CID size, obviously the bore centers dimension was widened to allow for bigger pistons, which makes the engine longer. Obviously, power and economy were hindered by the simple exhaust manifolds. Within the "Chevy" exterior architecture, they certainly could have used combustion chamber shapes similar to Buick or other brand engines. "More research needed"> In those earlier times, I was always a bit put-off by the RR power ratings. "Adequate" and "Substantial", as if horsepower and torque were for the "underlings" to be concerned with? Were they sourcing their automatic transmissions from Borg-Warner or GM HydraMatic? RR might not like to admit it, but it was similar to "Rambler"/American Motors in that they could design and build engines, but used other quality vendors for their OTHER car engineering situations, like fuel systems, power steering systems, a/c compressors, power brakes, transmissions, rear axles, and other electronic items. LOL NTX5467 Edited June 1 by NTX5467 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 A quick Google search for "Silver Cloud II engine" resulted in a RR sales document. The engine pictured, from the side, looks nothing like the picture above. It has "M" shaped round exhaust manifolds, with twin SU carburetors on it. Center-bolt valve covers, with a GM 4-speed Hydramatic bolted to its backside. Aluminum block with "wet" cast iron sleeves and aluminum heads with steel valve seats. Car weighed in the neighborhood of 4800 lbs with 0-60mph in just under 11 seconds. 4.1" bore x 3.6" stroke. The new V-8 weights a little bit less than the cast iron 6-cyl it replaced. Obviously, the engine pictured above is a later model engine. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) That RR engine doesn't look much like a Buick when you get down to the sleeves and the weep holes. Edited June 1 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 One more shot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne R Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 20 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: One more shot. Thank you Flattop you are correct there , great photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Buick marketing has always leaned a little toward RR and Bentley. The royal family had a couple of Buicks in the mid-1930s that have been hinted to show the Proper Car manufacturer the way. That is the Phantom III era. Maybe a slight hint in the independent front suspension but not in the intricacies of the V 12 engine or special tools for servicing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 In looking at that first engine picture, I suspect it might be a photoshopped Chevy engine rather than a real RR engine. None of the RR engine pictures I have found have 4 perimeter valve cover bolts, but have center-bolt valve covers with the Rolls Royce mane prominent in them. With a bolt-in cover for the lifter valley. I found one company that offers reman RR engines and they look nothing like that picture above. Power on the 6.2L RR V-8 was like 185, with the later and larger RR V-8 being more like 225. RHD Silver Cloud II cars, for the "home market" were right hand drive and used the 4-speed automatic, as the same cars "for Export/USA" were left hand drive and used the THM400 transmission. Top speed was approx. 115mph. This was mentioned in a week-long road test of a Silver Cloud II convertible. The GM A-6 compressor was mentioned in that road test, too. KEY things mentioned were attributes of smoothness (other than the 1-2 upshift), quietness (three "silencers" in the exhaust (one for each of three specific frequency ranges), and ease of operation. Attributes which were valued by ANY luxury brand in the 1960s, but taken to the 99% level with RR vehicles. In spite of all of the attributes mentioned, the car was equipped with Firestone tires! Not a British brand or Michelins, but bias-ply Firestones. Interesting discoveries via Google. NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne R Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 (edited) Thankyou ,NTX5467---60FlatTo---Ben, for all great input and information on this subject, i agree with statement re chevy photo, and all other information, plus the firestone tires mentioned, years ago when i lived in New Zealand those firestone tires were made in New Zealand and exported around the world, im sure im correct there, as fitted new ones on a 39 Buick that i restored. Just letting you all no , im leaving to fly overseas for about 3 weeks, probably wont be able to be on forum, not sure, thankyou all. Edited June 2 by Wayne R photo (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Wayne R said: Thankyou ,NTX5467---60FlatTo---Ben, for all great input and information on this subject, i agree with statement re chevy photo, and all other information, plus the firestone tires mentioned, years ago when i lived in New Zealand those firestone tires were made in New Zealand and exported around the world, im sure im correct there, as fitted new ones on a 39 Buick that i restored. Just letting you all no , im leaving to fly overseas for about 3 weeks, probably wont be able to be on forum, not sure, thankyou all. Safe travels Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 On 6/1/2024 at 10:05 AM, NTX5467 said: In order to get to the 378 CID size, obviously the bore centers dimension was widened to allow for bigger pistons, which makes the engine longer. ??? The SBC engine was 265 cu in to 400 cu in! Today the LS series goes from 4.8L to 7.0 L (LS7) in the same physical size block! These are all small block LS engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 6 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: The SBC engine was 265 cu in to 400 cu in! Don't forget the 262 (1975)! Wait... OK, we can forget that one... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 When I made my comment above, it was BEFORE I had done the Google searches and discovered what a real RR motor looks like. Although I knew they could have copied the SBC, they did not. Yet the exhaust manifolds just looked funky. It was later when I determined that the presented original picture was highly incorrect! I'm fully aware of the SBC400 and how it was made. It was never really considered for a hard-core performance engine due to its Siamese bores, which were considered to NEVER be completely round because of that, yet later serious HP motors used such. Interestingly, the SBC 383 which GM Perf Parts sells is not Siamese bores and uses the normal 4.0" bore of a SBC350 with a 3.80" stroke AND makes more power and torque than any SBC400-based 383 ever did. There are many reasons the LS family motors make power. One is cyl head flow and valve lifts well past .500", with longer strokes, AND an approx 4.0" bore size. Combustion dynamics of that bore size apparently are much better than larger bores, which means the additional CID comes from a longer stroke. BUT for somebody who wants a nice motor to drive around with, the OLD SBC can provide that with a good choice of cyl heads, cam, and induction system. BTAIM Enjoy! NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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