First Gen Door Instalation and Alignment

[Donzi Dan]

I have a 1964 with the doors and skins off the car as well as the front sheet metal. I removed the doors with hinges attached prior to media blasting. Now its time to hang the doors and adjust the gaps. I believe the factory would have hung and adjusted the doors without the skins, adjusted the windows, then hung the skins. Does anyone know the correct procedure?  I checked the body manual which only talks about the bolts but unfortunately no procedure. I have been trying to hang the doors with the skins (maybe 6 t-nuts and upper screws) as you would any other car but keep finding panel alignment challenges.

A second related question, how much alignment can be made with just the door skin fore and aft and up and down?

 

[1965rivgs]

Dan,

  Your procedure is correct. The first step is to align the door frame to the rocker panel and quarter panel. You might want to add some weight to the door frames while making adjustments so as to simulate the weight of the door skin upon complete assembly.

  Don't count on any alignment adjustment by repositioning the door skin itself. Once all the T bolts are inserted into the holes in the door frame there is little movement.

Tom Mooney

Edited March 27 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[gungeey]

I will add that since doors are off it's a perfect opportunity to address worn bushings in the hinges (especially the drivers side). Taking out the slop will make alignment easier and permanent. 

[Donzi Dan]

Thank you.

 

With the door skin off, what features on the body and door control the alignment?

As I look across the car, standing on the passenger side looking at the drivers door:

1. I can see the lower gap is well aligned with the top of the rocker. I shimmed this to start but not sure how big the gap should be. I put the door skin on, adjusted the lower gap from door skin to rocker and upper rear corner of door skin to rear fender. However the belt line and feature where the chrome goes will need some work.
2. I also notice that there is a much bigger gap at the front than rear of the door. But the rear is well aligned top to bottom. Again checking with the door skin on, the gap to rear fender is a bit tight but consistent on the lower 2/3 and a bit wide at the top.m
3. Then there is the in out at the front of the door which will effect the gaps between the cowl and front fenders. as well as the angle of the door from bottom to top. 

I believe if I can get the inner door in the correct location, gapping all the joints will be relatively easy. Otherwise, it would be like building a house on a bad foundation...

 

Any tricks would greatly be appreciated.

[RivNut]

Do as @gungeey says and install new bushings and pins. Then as @1965rivgs says align the door with the rear quarter and rocker panel - the only two solid reference points. Everything else aligns to the doors once they’re aligned to the body.

[Donzi Dan]

Thanks Ed, With or without the door skins installed? I don't find anything to reference without the door skins. With the door skins, it is same as installing doors on any other car. Maybe I'm overthinking this trying to duplicate what may have been done in the factory with special tools versus what I can do in my garage.

[JanZverina]

Just saw this thread and I'm also soon starting some door work on my '63. Since your first posting mentioned that you also have the front sheet metal off the car, I'm assuming that means the front fenders as well. Would it make more sense to get those in proper alignment before aligning the doors, or am I missing something?

-Jan

[TexRiv_63]

Here are some photos of my 63 showing the passenger door installed with skin removed. The car was all original with good panel alignment so the relationship of the skin mounting points to the rocker, quarter and front fender may be of some help. Realistically I do think you will probably have to mount the door and adjust then add the skin to check alignment and you may have to repeat the process before you are done.

[Donzi Dan]

Hello Jan, Doors first then the fenders. The doors must align with the top of the rockers and front of the rear quarter panel. Then you can align the front fenders to the doors. The only watchout I have so far is there isn't anything to align the front top of the doors such that you can ensure proper gaps between the front fenders and cowl. Also, my car has what appears to be factory shims on the front two pairs of body mounts. I put those back in but now it looks like I may need to raise the front mounts on the inner fenders. Once I get it all sorted, I'll post more. And hopefully there are some tricks others may know.

 

As the others have suggested I am rebuilding my hinges. They all feel serviceable. But the first I took apart is pretty worn out. 

Edited March 28 by Donzi Dan
typo (see edit history)

[Donzi Dan]

Thanks Don, very helpful photos. And very clean too.

[gungeey]

11 minutes ago, Donzi Dan said:

Hello Jan, Doors first then the fenders. The doors must align with the top of the rockers and front of the rear fenders. Then you can align the front fenders to the doors. The only watchout I have so far is there isn't anything to align the front top of the doors such that you can ensure proper gaps between the front fenders and cowl. Also, my car has what appears to be factory shims on the front two pairs of body mounts. I put those back in but now it looks like I may need to raise the front mounts on the inner fenders. Once I get it all sorted, I'll post more. And hopefully there are so tricks others may know.

 

As the others have suggested I am rebuilding my hinges, They all feel serviceable. But the first I took apart is pretty worn out. 

I would definately without a doubt do fenders then doors. 

[RivNut]

5 hours ago, gungeey said:

I would definately without a doubt do fenders then doors. 

You have no reference for mounting and aligning a fender until you’ve aligned the door to the rear quarter and the rocker panel.  

[Chasander]

Remember how these bodies were delivered to assembly plant. Doors were on (with skin) and aligned. Body was then dropped on to frame(with drive train). Radiator support then installed then fenders(with inners). 

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Chasander said:

Remember how these bodies were delivered to assembly plant. Doors were on (with skin) and aligned. Body was then dropped on to frame(with drive train). Radiator support then installed then fenders(with inners). 

  Exactly my thoughts many years ago when I started working on GM cars in general, ie, how were the cars originally assembled?

  I imagine a measuring fixture was used at Fisher at the front top edge of the doors as a basic guideline, although aligning the doors to the rockers and quarters should certainly place the top of the doors very close to where they should be relative to the cowl assuming the body is assembled / welded within specs.

  I would assume both front fenders were joined to the inner fenders and the tie bar (core support) through use of a jig and put in place as an assembly, but it has been decades since I researched the process in detail.

  There is a paper presented by Buick engineering to the SAE which has been recently featured in the Riview that details the assembly process specific to the Riviera model complete with mention of the jigs applied to approximate dimensions in specific areas.

  There are numerals written on the underside of the hood which can be seen on original cars which appear to be dimensions or shimming specs? There are usually two numerals presented in the format "5/6" which I assume are dimensions or shimming dimensions written by the assembly line folks while adjusting up the front clip.

  I've always been entertained by the variance in dimensions found in the core support shims on original cars. I've always payed specific attention to this area after encountering my first bent frame on a Riviera. The factory shims were supplied in several dimensions to be stacked to achieve front clip alignment. Sometimes they are stacked rather high and sometimes there is very little shimming; surely a sign of additive variance from ideal component specs.

  How cool would it be to go back in time and watch a first gen car be assembled starting at Fisher Body?

Tom Mooney

Edited March 28 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[Chasander]

I never watch a Riviera being assembled, but watched  “B” and “C” cars being assembled at times(Flint). . I’m almost sure radiator support was on the frame and then fender assemblies from each side of the line. (I said almost sure)

[RivNut]

Gord Wolfgang,

@msdminc If you’re out there, chime in.
 

Ed

[1965rivgs]

3 hours ago, Chasander said:

I never watch a Riviera being assembled, but watched  “B” and “C” cars being assembled at times(Flint). . I’m almost sure radiator support was on the frame and then fender assemblies from each side of the line. (I said almost sure)

  I`m not sure either...but I do know that the other big cars have a dedicated core support under which the mounts/shims are placed. The Riv is a little different because the mounts are placed under the inside fender wells and what would normally look like a core support is just a tie bar between the left and right sides. Dont know if that would make a difference in assembly technique.... I would assume it really doesnt make much difference, except to GM.

Tom Mooney

[atencioee]

On 3/29/2024 at 11:05 AM, 1965rivgs said:

  I`m not sure either...but I do know that the other big cars have a dedicated core support under which the mounts/shims are placed. The Riv is a little different because the mounts are placed under the inside fender wells and what would normally look like a core support is just a tie bar between the left and right sides. Dont know if that would make a difference in assembly technique.... I would assume it really doesnt make much difference, except to GM.

Tom Mooney

@1965rivgs Hello Tom, I've been trying to reach you, including some unanswered calls/messages. I also sent a message to your inbox on AACA yesterday. Please see my message and respond. 

Thank you. Kind regards, Gene.

[1965rivgs]

29 minutes ago, atencioee said:

@1965rivgs Hello Tom, I've been trying to reach you, including some unanswered calls/messages. I also sent a message to your inbox on AACA yesterday. Please see my message and respond. 

Thank you. Kind regards, Gene.

Gene, I dont have any updates/change in status for you, no new info to share, but I will respond anyway. 

Tom 

[msdminc]

All, I know its been a while since this thread was active, sorry for the delay.  I worked in GM assembly plants for 20+ years both Frame Rear Wheel Drive Cars and Unibody Front Drive Cars. For frame cars, as you said the body was dropped onto the frame on final line.  For plants that had body's delivered by Fisher from another site, Final Line was part of the Car Division or Buick plant in this case.  The Fisher Body was basically the car from the A pillar to the tail lights (No bumpers (front or rear), no fenders, no core support)). The frame was dressed with the engine, trans, brakes, suspension etc.  Tires and Wheels were put on, and then it was delivered to the final line, where the body was married to the frame.  The delivered frame had the radiator and all that was needed for that.  The fenders, and Fascia with head lights etc. were attached.  The steering, pedals, all the electrical, AC, and other things that needed connection inside the body were made.  After everything was buttoned up gas was put in started, driven of the final line where testing and alignment was completed.  If all inspections were good to go it was shipped, if problems, they were repaired, re inspected and then shipped.

 

Now I read the whole thread.  The suggestions of aligning the door to the rocker first is right.  Then hang the fenders and align them.  Inboard/outboard is to feel generally, the gaps you desire consistency around the opening.  If everything was done right in the body shop, and all the fixtures and clamps were applied correctly there should be generally no extraordinary effort to fit the doors the quarter, rocker, fender and hood.  Sometimes things are not perfect so they invented shims, and 10 pound sledge hammers.  Hanging doors is easy, fitting doors is an art, patience is a virtue.  You may get to do it more than once.  The hope is the door doesn't drop off the striker when you open it (also can be an indication of worn bushings), essentially sagging, and all the gaps (to Quarter and Fender) are consistent, remember the rocker is kind of low, so you cannot see it like a door to fender or quarter).

 

Hope this helps

 

Rock On

 

gord

Edited April 8 by msdminc
Read the entire thread (see edit history)

[BulldogDriver]

Gordon, I thought the core body came painted before being put onto the frames. If so then the front clip would most likely have been painted in another plant and mated on final assembly, correct?
 

Amazing that the paint jobs were spot on.

 

Ray

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, BulldogDriver said:

Gordon, I thought the core body came painted before being put onto the frames. If so then the front clip would most likely have been painted in another plant and mated on final assembly, correct?
 

Amazing that the paint jobs were spot on.

 

Ray

Yes, truly amazing.  Here’s a picture of painted Rivieras and Toronados lined up at the Euclid, OH Fischer Body Plant for loading before delivery to Flint, MI for final assembly.  You’ll see the bodies with paint, glass, interior, and moldings in place.  Nothing else to them until they’re married up as Gord describes.

 

 

 

 

[msdminc]

Ed is correct.  There were paint shops in the Fisher Body plants and in the motor division plants.  Paint match was critical.  It occasionally presented problems.  Fortunately not all that often.

 

When GM used Assembly plats with everything under one roof, they had only one paint shop, and the sheet metal and body were painted together.   The paint match problem was eliminated. 

 

Rock On

 

gord

[1965rivgs]

2 hours ago, BulldogDriver said:

Gordon, I thought the core body came painted before being put onto the frames. If so then the front clip would most likely have been painted in another plant and mated on final assembly, correct?
 

Amazing that the paint jobs were spot on.

 

Ray

They all weren't...very typical to find original paint cars with mismatched paint on the front clips. Most who have not been around will claim "can't be original, paint on the front clip doesn't match" but that typically doesn't concern me when inspecting an original car... unless I find evidence of a front end collision.

Tom Mooney

[RivNut]

I think that I read somewhere a couple of years ago that some second generation rivieras had problems with the moldings on the front fenders lining up with the moldings on the door when the door was on the body in Euclid and the fenders were put together in Flint.  

[msdminc]

Ed that's another problem with building the body and sheet metal in different plants, in addition to the paint mismatches. This one of the big reasons GM went to full assembly under one roof.  That transition started with BOP and Fisher Chevy plants in the 40s, to GMAD in the 60s to the big Billion Dollar current assembly plants.  

 

Rock On

 

gord

[Donzi Dan]

I've been able to align the doors on my 1964. Gaps at front of rear quarter and top of rocker look good. I pre-assembled the inner and outer fenders, much easier than trying to install the inner on the car first (Thanks Ed). When aligning the fender to door, I'm finding the inner fender mounting to the frame front needs to be shimmed about 3/4-1". I notice in the Chassis Manual there is not a call out for shims in this location so suspect something else is the problem. Other than rust repairs, there is no damage on the body or chassis.

 

Are there any tricks?

 

The next trial is to:

• install the two fender assemblies and cross bar with all bolts loose and loosen all the inner to outer fender bolts
• align the fenders to doors and shim appropriately (lifting the front if required)
• tighten the three "shimmed" and two inner fender to firewall bracket bolts maintaining fender/door alignment
• tighten the two inner fender to frame mounts maybe while shaking the front assembly
• check if the gap changes
  • the thought is the inner out fender assemblies may "bend or twist" so no shims are required at the front body mounts
• If OK then torque the remaining bolts

Folks interested in aligning the doors, like many other things the Riviera's are unique. With the door skin nuts snug, it is quite easy to rack the door - you can twist the rear of the door top to bottom and if the nuts snug it will stay. Be sure the door assembly is in a "neutral" position and tighten all the door skin nuts prior to aligning the door.