1916 Detroiter suddenly won't start

[AZMIcars]

Hi All,

I'm hoping someone who is familiar with this vintage of cars will have an answer for us.  We purchased a 1916 Detroiter.  It started when we received it.  And, it started a few hours later.  The next day it wouldn't start at all.  There is spark through the coil and into the distributor but, there is no spark to any of the plugs.   This is a 6 cylinder car.  It has a 12 volt battery in it which we will be replacing today hoping that might be the problem.  But, it's perplexing since it started when we got it.  Is it possible that the 12 volt battery fried something?  We searched for a loose wire hoping to get lucky but didn't find anything.  This car was professionally restored about 20 years ago but that's all we know about it.  The restoration shop that did the work has since closed its doors.  

[Mark Shaw]

With the ignition on, see if you have 12V to the + side of the coil. 

If not, you need to re-charge or replace the battery.

[Pete O]

"There is spark through the coil and into the distributor but, there is no spark to any of the plugs."   Make sure the center lead from the coil to the cap is seated fully on both ends.  If so, take the distributor cap off and have someone crank the car over.  Watch if the rotor spins.  If it does, check the condition of the contacts on the rotor and the distributor cap.  Look for corrosion.  Check the graphite "dimple" center contact  in the distributor cap.  These can crack and fall out and you won't have any continuity for the high voltage through the rotor.  If the rotor doesn't spin, you have big problems, perhaps a stripped camshaft gear or distributor drive gear.

[Oldtech]

I don't think you would have any spark if it wasn't turning. As Pete says. Your problem should be in the cap or rotor.  The Carbon brush in the center is a possibility, as is a "crack" (Spark arc line) in the cap to  send the spark to the wrong place.  A rotor that has an arc through to the shaft could be another idea.  Good Luck. 

[dodge28]

I am not sure if this will work but recently I had a similar situation. My 2 stroke Stihl blower would  not start.  I took it to  the dealer. It was cranking but not starting . The dealer took 10 minutes and had it running. No charge. OLD GAS NOT WORK. Condensation sets in.   May be, just may  be , the gas in your car is too old. 

[AZMIcars]

Hi Dodge28.  We just put new gas in it thinking that might be the problem, but it didn't fix it. 

We will try what Oldtech, Peteo and Mark Shaw posted.  We really appreciate all the advise and are again completely perplexed that it ran just fine and then 12 hours later it wouldn't start at all.   We will post what we've tried and hopefully, what worked.  Thanks again to everyone.  

[AZMIcars]

update:   The rotor and distributor are ok.  There isn't much of anything coming out of the coil so we suspect that whomever put the 12 volt battery in the 6 volt car, fried possibly the coil. 

 

Is there a list of pre war mechanics that anyone knows of?  We are close to Phoenix, AZ  

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

[DFeeney]

I don't believe this will be a expensive fix.   However you need to become familiar with how a point-ignition system works.  Once you understand the basics you will be able to trouble shoot it with a $10. test light.  I would unhook the wire going from the coil to the distributor and test it for battery voltage.  If voltage is present put the wire back on.   Take the wire from the coil to the center of the distributor cap off and hold it about 1/4" from the block and have someone crank the engine over.  A blue spark should jump each time the points open and close.  If you have this spark your system is working.  If not get back on line and we can narrow down what to do next.   If a person is willing to learn the basics they can become "The King of Spark"

[AZMIcars]

Thank you DFeeney

We did that.  I believe we've narrowed it down to the condenser.  We replaced the battery with a 6V since there was a 12V and no conversion.  We are hoping that the 12V battery just burned up the condenser.  The ohms on the coil are fine but there isn't enough umf in the coil.  One person held his hand on the coil with me cranking and it gave a small poke but not what you would expect. (Yes, we know there are other safer ways of testing this).  Barrett Jackson is coming up this weekend so we are going to pause this project for a week until the auction is over.  We did manage to get in touch with a pre-war mechanic whose been very helpful in the troubleshooting.  Fingers are crossed.  Thank you for all the input.  It's all very much appreciated. 

[DFeeney]

On my 1931  Chrysler CD-8 car I bought a late model Ford truck condenser new for $7. on line.     I added a 1' wire to the condenser  ground frame and bolted the other end of it to the block.   The incoming wire of the condenser I bolted to  junction where the wire from the coil attaches to the distributor body.  I drove the car all summer like this.   It's a cheap  easy way to eliminate a condenser problem.  Also make sure the points have continuity when closed as they can get filmed over.  Keep us posted.

[Tonz]

I don't know about your level of experience with vintage cars, but long term you have to intimately know pretty well every aspect of what makes a 100 year old car tick.

I doubt if any of my "non vintage car enthusiast" family or friends would be able to start my old car yet even drive it.

Time to get down to the basics and learn about your new car.

Also lookout for attempts by inexperienced modern mechanics to work on this car ... Such as the 12v battery.

[Lee H]

If it has the stock Autolite ignition coil, it has a three-wire connection. Has yours been converted to a Connecticut system?

Edited January 19 by Lee H (see edit history)

[AZMIcars]

Thank you.  No, it has not been converted.  I appreciate the schematic. 

 

[AZMIcars]

Thank you DeFeeny for the info about the condenser.  I'm assuming you found it on ebay.  I will look for it.  I appreciate the advise. 

[Jolly_John]

Also note that the negative battery terminal is ground on your car. Just mentioning that in case the uniformed person who installed that 12v battery in your car had used the positive terminal as ground (and you replicated that when installing the new 6v battery). Good luck in tracking your problem down. John

[Lee H]

On 1/24/2024 at 12:19 PM, AZMIcars said:

Thank you.  No, it has not been converted.  I appreciate the schematic. 

 

Yours looks a lot like a car that sold at Kissimmee in 2022, and it had been converted.

[AZMIcars]

On 1/25/2024 at 3:33 PM, Lee H said:

Yours looks a lot like a car that sold at Kissimmee in 2022, and it had been converted.

I stand corrected Lee.  It is a Connecticut system but it's still 6 Volts as far as we can tell.  Am I missing something?  And, yes this is the one that sold at Kissimmee in 2022.  

[AZMIcars]

On 1/24/2024 at 4:04 PM, Jolly_John said:

Also note that the negative battery terminal is ground on your car. Just mentioning that in case the uniformed person who installed that 12v battery in your car had used the positive terminal as ground (and you replicated that when installing the new 6v battery). Good luck in tracking your problem down. John

Thank you.  The positive goes to ground on this car.  I appreciate your input.  

[AZMIcars]

Update: I believe we've narrowed down the problem.  The cap and rotor are worn out so we are looking for new ones.  Anyone have a supplier that might have replacement parts for a Connecticut Telephone and Electric Model 15 distributor cap and rotor?  TIA for everyone's help.  

[Lee H]

1 hour ago, AZMIcars said:

I stand corrected Lee.  It is a Connecticut system but it's still 6 Volts as far as we can tell.  Am I missing something?  And, yes this is the one that sold at Kissimmee in 2022. 

Only from the standpoint of better understanding what you are dealing with. Here’s some basic info on the Connecticut system, Model 16. Not sure how the Model 15 is designed, but take a close look at possible high resistance connections for the automatic cut-out (assuming it has it), and the fact that the coil may have a built-in condenser (which could be bad). The coil must be grounded (if stock Connecticut). The schematic shows a negative ground system. For the most part, it looks like standard Kettering ignition design.

 

Edited February 3 by Lee H (see edit history)

[AZMIcars]

1 hour ago, Lee H said:

Only from the standpoint of better understanding what you are dealing with. Here’s some basic info on the Connecticut system, Model 16. Not sure how the Model 15 is designed, but take a close look at possible high resistance connections for the automatic cut-out (assuming it has it), and the fact that the coil may have a built-in condenser (which could be bad). The coil must be grounded (if stock Connecticut). The schematic shows a negative ground system. For the most part, it looks like standard Kettering ignition design.

 

Thanks a million Lee.  We will dive into it tomorrow.  I'll let you know how we make out.  I really appreciate your help!!

 

[Old buicks 2]

AZMIcars,   I have been following this thread since it was first posted.   I have both model 15 and 16 Connecticut ignition parts in stock.    Give me a call and we can discuss both systems and what parts you may need.   I will send you a PM with my contact information

 

Tom  

[AZMIcars]

9 hours ago, Old buicks 2 said:

AZMIcars,   I have been following this thread since it was first posted.   I have both model 15 and 16 Connecticut ignition parts in stock.    Give me a call and we can discuss both systems and what parts you may need.   I will send you a PM with my contact information

 

Tom  

Thank you Tom.  I don't know how to find my pm on this forum.  Please email your contact information to aahorses9@gmail.com.  Thanks so much!!!  Elaine 

[AZMIcars]

Just now, AZMIcars said:

Thank you Tom.  I don't know how to find my pm on this forum.  Please email your contact information to aahorses9@gmail.com.  Thanks so much!!!  Elaine 

Never mind. I found it.  We will call you today.  Thank you.  Elaine and Eric. 

[Lee H]

Here’s a bit more information. Dykes details the differences between model 15 and 16.

[DFeeney]

Isn't it wonderful that so many forum members have offered their suggestions and help,  Perhaps the 6 o'clock new's is wrong and the "World is not broken"

[AZMIcars]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:04 AM, Lee H said:

Here’s a bit more information. Dykes details the differences between model 15 and 16.

Thank you again Lee.  I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate yours and everyone's help as we have been a little lost in the weeds with this car.  We investigated and the dashboard switches have been partially bypassed.  So, the light switch that used to complete the circuit for starting was disabled and a new key was installed to the right of the Connecticut buttons, probably when Brian Josephs restored it, but he has since retired.  We found a new cap and rotor and have ordered that hoping that will resolve our problem since there is spark all the way to the distributor but nothing coming out of the distributor.  I'll keep everyone updated on our progress.

[AZMIcars]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:04 AM, Lee H said:

Here’s a bit more information. Dykes details the differences between model 15 and 16.

Author

Posted just now

  On 2/4/2024 at 7:04 AM, Lee H said:

Here’s a bit more information. Dykes details the differences between model 15 and 16.

Thank you again Lee.  I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate yours and everyone's help as we have been a little lost in the weeds with this car.  We investigated and the dashboard switches have been partially bypassed.  So, the light switch that used to complete the circuit for starting was disabled and a new key was installed to the right of the Connecticut buttons, probably when Brian Josephs restored it, but he has since retired.  We found a new cap and rotor and have ordered that hoping that will resolve our problem since there is spark all the way to the distributor but nothing coming out of the distributor.  I'll keep everyone updated on our progress.

[DFeeney]

I believe you are using the wrong term.  You said spark was going to the distributor but not coming out.  I think you mean battery voltage was at the incoming side of the distributor.   The points need to open and close with continuity  and the condenser and coil must be good to allow Spark to occur.  Turn the ignition on and  leave the cap off and put a test light on the incoming wire at the distributor.  If the points are open the light will be on .  If the points are closed the light will be off.  Cranking the engine over the light will go on and off.  This is a very important step.  If the distributor point assembly is shorted you will not see this result and need to trouble shoot accordingly.

[AZMIcars]

On 2/6/2024 at 2:50 PM, DFeeney said:

I believe you are using the wrong term.  You said spark was going to the distributor but not coming out.  I think you mean battery voltage was at the incoming side of the distributor.   The points need to open and close with continuity  and the condenser and coil must be good to allow Spark to occur.  Turn the ignition on and  leave the cap off and put a test light on the incoming wire at the distributor.  If the points are open the light will be on .  If the points are closed the light will be off.  Cranking the engine over the light will go on and off.  This is a very important step.  If the distributor point assembly is shorted you will not see this result and need to trouble shoot accordingly.

Thanks for the clarification.  What we know is there is spark through the coil.  We will give that a try also.  Thanks to OldBuicks2, we were able to locate and order a new cap and rotor.  Fingers and toes are crossed.  We will update everyone on the outcome.  

 

I must say, the people in this forum are so nice and helpful.  It's so refreshing in our current 'me first' world.  We always try to help others and it's amazing how much help we've had in a few short weeks through this forum.  Thanks so much to everyone.  We deeply appreciate your suggestions.  

[AZMIcars]

Update: We purchased a new cap, rotor and points and when we discovered that the wires were soldered into the cap, we decided to take an easier route.  We purchased a new 6V coil, installed it and the car fired right up.  A huge shoutout to everyone who had helpful suggestions.  And, to OldBuicks2 who has NOS for the ignition for this car.  We are going to hang onto the parts since we may need them in the future.  I spoke with the consignor for this car and he admitted that they had put the 12V battery in this car since the 6V battery was dead.  Since the coil that was in the car was either original or authentic, we are assuming that the 12V battery fried the old coil.  We are saving the old coil with the car. 

 

Thanks again everyone in assisting getting us running again. 

 

Elaine and Eric