How to disassemble at 1920's differential...advice needed

[Gerczak]

All,  I am working on an old 1929 Kissel that had a Columbia Differential in it.  I am tearing it down to inspect it and found numerous problems (Yes my ring gear has seen better days) but I cannot get the main pin out to remove the spider gears to clean and inspect them.  Does anyone have a book or manual that tells how to disassemble it?  Here is what I tired so far.

 

-Found the cross-pin had broken off leaving a piece inside the main pin.  I got the cross pin out and rotated the main-pin and the piece fell out.

-In the center of splined axle hole it looks like the bottom of it has a crack (both sides look the same).  Those 2 pcs float over 1/4" up and down.  They do not come out of the hole as they are larger that the center axle hole.  I can get the crack to open up slightly with a screw driver but it doesn't spread.

-There is a center casting that covers the pin between the spiders.  It must be keyed into the center pieces.

-There is also an engraved line across the center pin that is 90 degrees from the cross-pin bolt hole.  

 

I am assuming there is some sort of clocking (align crack/adjust height of cracked axle hole piece/cross-pin hole/engraved lined) and then the pin will slide out.  I have not found the magic to this puzzle box yet and was hoping someone has figured it out or has an article on it.  I have already tried the 10# sledge and not even the slightest of movements occurred (This was some good steel as I have broken many tools already trying to get this apart).  Any advice is always appreciated.

 

[mikewest]

I wouldnt keep beating on it with a  10LBS hammer. Go get your self a press. 

[alsfarms]

Have you spoken with Ron Hausman. He is the Kissel guru and should be able to coach you through the break down of your third member. He may even have spare parts from which you could make a good repair/rebuild to go back in your Kissel.

Al

[DFeeney]

There are many good used shop presses on Facebook market place in the $200.-400 range.   Money well spent.

[Oldtech]

What is the part with the crack that we are seeing? looks like the end of an axle.

Could the pin actually be 2 pins, one in from each side?

Edited November 9, 2023 by Oldtech (see edit history)

[Gerczak]

The cracked piece is in the center of the carrier and the axles must ride on the surface.  My axles do not have any clips that hold them in place but they have tapered roller bearings at the wheels with heavy cast endcaps that are shimmed to hold them in place.  

 

I tried pulling the cracked piece out with a magnet but it just moves about a 1/4" of an inch up/down.  Both sides move together so it must be some sort of hard center stop for the axle to sit up against.

 

Another oddity is that when I turn the spiders, I can get the main pin to move 1/4" off center (left/right and not up/down).  It is like there is an elliptical hole above the spider gears.  It doesn't look like it is worn that way but I can't tell until I get the gears apart.  

 

I did speak with Ron and my car is newer than the Kissel's he works on.  The axle is slightly different.

 

I am warming up to the press idea but I don't have the space to buy one.  I will check with my local garage and see if they might have one.  

[Dandy Dave]

A photo of the other side will help. Flip it over. Also a photo of where the spider pin goes through the casting.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Basically you need to do this. Look in the locking bolt hole to be sure there is not a set screw still holding it in place. I've seen some applications that way in the past. A locking bolt overtop of a set screw. The cross pin needs to be removed first. Should be one piece. Then the center piece should come out after the cross pin is out of the way . I'm sure it is cracked in the direction where the pin goes though it.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Gerczak]

The cross pin is out.  It was originally sheared off and a piece was floating inside and I was able to get it to fall out.  I checked the depth with a small screw driver and it looks clear through the main pin.  No set-screws that I have found.

 

The other side looks same with the same cracked center piece and is aligned.

[alsfarms]

It is likely that the cracked piece is the end of a broken axle shaft?

[Gerczak]

Doesn't look like it to me.  I just think it is the hard stop in the center of it that the axles rest against. 

 

Very old technology here and it puzzles to me too.

[alsfarms]

You are correct. I is not broken axle.

[Gerczak]

So I pulled out the owners manual and found this schematic.  The cracked piece is G however there is no reference to a name in the book.  It looks like the round tip on my axle is an insert (probably hardened).  What I did notice is the pin looks straight so I will take it to a press.   I tried the poor man's press, floor jack and trucks bumper hitch, but it just lifted the truck off the ground.  I did get a little family support as the Misses worked the floor jack, but alas, a disappointing performance.  My machine shop said to swing by Monday.

[alsfarms]

Good luck with your repair. Are you going to replace ring and pinion during this repair to a more comfortable gear ratio?

Al

[Gerczak]

I plan on replacing the pinion and ring gear but I am at the mercy of what I can find for the ratio.  This differential does not cross with anything.  It is about a 10" ring and the pinion has a tapered flange that mounts to it for the driveshaft.

 

I may install an overdrive system to give me an extra gear but that is for another day.  I see the Model A guys are adapting a Volvo Overdrive in the drive shaft that sounds appealing.  It is well hidden in the car so people don't notice until it has lower rpm's at cruising speeds.

 

I will keep everyone posted next week if I can get this thing apart.

[DFeeney]

Slow and easy is the word.  Keep us posted on your progress.  The forum does have remarkable mechanic's.  I have learned much by following the wisdom of others. 

[Rod P]

Hi Gerczak, I think you have thought of and tried everything humanly possible to remove this broken piece. 

 

Good luck with that.

 

Seeing you are already working on the differential, 2 questions.

 

1. Does the rear removable cover have the Columbia signature script across it?

 

2. Does the top of the axle housing/ or top of diff centre have any serial numbers or gear ratio's stamped on it please. 

 

Some Columbias, do, most don't.

 

Thanks again, Rod.

[Gerczak]

So it is a Columbia with a C on the cover.  On the inside I can read Columbia but someone ground off everything except the "C."  The axles are also stamped Columbia. 

 

51/10 was stamped on it.  51 tooth ring, 10 pinion or a 5.1 ratio.  Also a 27 which I assume is for 1927.

 

I am working to get a better ratio but I am at the mercy of what is available. 

[Gerczak]

Well here is the Good, Bad, and Ugly of this project today.

 

The Good:  Mike was right.  I needed a press and 15 Ton of force according to the machine shop.  Straight pin came out.

 

The Bad:  The pin had welded itself to a spider gear.  No amount of beating would have taken that out.  The cracked center piece came out and it has a milled hole in the center of it.  The spiders are all galled up/cracked which I was hoping to salvage.  Does any other axles use a 3/4" diff pin that I might be able to get spider gears?  What are the odds they would fit my side gears?  I will also need a new pin that is 5.5" long and 3/4" in diameter.  Should I try and have a new center piece machined?

 

 

Then the Ugly:  Apparently this issue must have been going on for a while because the pin wore out the side of the differential carrier by over a 1/4".  The hole is supposed to be 3/4".  I don't know if the carrier is salvageable.

 

A few set-backs here...for another day...

 

[Dandy Dave]

Looks like it is going to take some machining to straiten that mess out. Most likely it had been run low on oil at some point. The housing could be machined out and press fit bushings installed. The gears, if bad, are another problem. Something definitely made it get hot. In the old days sometimes an old auto would be jacked up on one wheel and a belt pulley installed to run a cord wood saw or other machine that needed belt power. When this is done it gives the spider assembly one heck of a work out. I would not be surprised if that is what happened to it. In normal running it would not have done what it did.   

Edited November 14, 2023 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I feel for the OP of this repair chat. I also scratch my head wondering what went amis? Low oil and head certy drove this failure. I wonder if an axle seal went south or if it was the pinion seal? What was your observation in those areas? It would be nice if you can measure the spider gears and locate a workable set. I encourage you to determine your repair plan before you start so as the remachining progresses you can properly accommodate the new parts needed. I am sure you are already at that point. I feel actually that the damaged ring and pinion might be the easiest part of this repair/conversion. Good luck.....

Al

[DFeeney]

This type of serious repair separates the "True Hear-ted"  from the "Tire Kickers"  Stand Proud after you have finished working through this repair.  Hang Tight.

[alsfarms]

I agree whole heartedly with Mr Feeney......

Al

[Gerczak]

Well I am determined to get this thing back on the road again one day.  I was expecting this to be somewhat of a mess but just not this big of one.

 

I have located a used ring gear/pinion/and a potential different carrier.  The carrier looks a little different so I am not getting my hopes up until I can measure critical dimensions.

 

So I have been doing some research and apparently this style of axle (10 spline) was used on Dana Axle 41/44 for 1946-1971 Jeeps.  It appears that the pin is 3/4" in diameter but I think I have to order a set to confirm.  I think I could use the Spiders and the center "Spacer".  The pin appears to be 1/2" shorter and the side gears are also 1/2" shorter and only have 16 teeth (Mine has 20).  Do you think the spider's would mesh as they both have 10 teeth?  I would have to take measurements once I get them in front of me.

 

It also seems that finding the pin is not that easy either.  Most have notches and are not long enough.  Would a 3/4" Dowel rod work well enough?  According to McMaster it is HRC 60 so it should have the hardness needed.  I don't think I could drill a hole in it for the locking bolt so could I grind a flat and lock it in place that way?  

 

 

 

[alsfarms]

Have you  considered using a piece of head treatable drill rod, do your exact machine work the head treat to the specifications you are comfortable with?

[alsfarms]

Your other cap might be from a 1908 Model E. This cap listed might be an E or H. I hope your cap finds a good home.

[ron hausmann]

John,

    You might consider researching other period Kissel models to see if other non/Columbia rear axle assemblies would be able to be used. The 1927-1929 Kissel rears that I have are not Columbia. All have the Lockheed brakes. Is it possible yours wasn’t an originall? Again the Kissel parts manuals from that period would clear things up. A substitution might also solve your ratio issues.

Ron Hausmann P.E.

[Gerczak]

Well I need to give an update on this repair as I am getting closer to fixing this but as you all know this is not a fast process.  Life events occurred, it takes a while to find parts, and it also take time to get parts to a machinist.  

 

So I was able to procure 2 vintage Columbia axles to scavenge parts to rebuild my original.  I replaced the chipped 51T/10T Ring Gear/Pinion (5.1 Ratio) with a 49T/11T (4.45 Ratio) which should be an improvement.  The set was mounted to a different sized differential carrier (Ring gear still fit the same but everything else was slightly off) and I found it had one of the axle bearing mounts broken off.  So I had my differential carrier machined and added bushings (Thanks Dandy Dave for the suggestion).

 

 

The next problem I had was the spider gears were cracked.  I was able to use the new Dana 44 Spider gears which apparently are used on Jeep Cherokee products.  They had the correct 3/4" Differential pin size, outside diameter, and tooth count.  They were a little bit shorter but engaged very well to the side gears (New gear on the Right).  They needed a little fitting to the carrier but it all worked out.

 

 

I added 2 spacers to keep the casting centered on the pin.  The casting holds the thrust block (Cracked piece) that centers between the axle shafts.  This is also a similar part as the what is currently in Jeep's except it is smaller OD.  I bolted on the ring gear with grade 9 nuts and bolts (Heads ground down for clearance) and coating them down with Lock-tite.  One of the bearings had spun on the top of the housing so I just added a few punch pricks to hold the bearing in place and press fit all the bearings. 

 

 

The last item I needed was the actual Diff Pin as mine was severely galled up.  The one that came with the Jeep kit was 1/2" too short in length so was not useable.  I found the slightly undersized hardened rod at McMaster Carr, trimmed it to length, and it fit perfectly.  The carrier is now assembled and engagement feels good overall.  More to come.

[Gerczak]

This differential had water sitting in it when I started so I went thru all the bearings and races and replaced them.  Some were pitted and one race on the pinion was actually cracked (the housing was OK).  I was able to source all Timken bearings and matched up all the serial numbers.  Once the pinion was installed in the housing (new seals), the carrier was installed.  I give a lot of credit to the original engineers because I think the torque settings are fairly straightforward as you have to tighten the bolts until they fit the clips.  There is really no other way to over/under tighten them because once they are in, they can't move.

 

 

Once everything was in place, I started the backlash check routine and made many adjustments.  As far as I can tell I am 0.005-0.008 and the spec was 0.005-0.010.  I blued the gear set and below are the results.

 

 

I think it looks pretty good for this being the 1st time ever doing this job.  Once everything was set, I locked in the bolts to hold the pinion in place on the top of the diff housing and added the diff lock (Top black cap).  

 

 

This was a lot of work to get this far and I had a lot of things to figure out as a first timer.  I am sure it will be quicker on my future differential work which I hope never occurs on an uncommon car.

[Dandy Dave]

I love it when a plan comes together. It all looks good from where I'm sitting. 🙂Nice job. 😃