1939 Chrysler Starter

[MercMontMars]

Hi there, I’m trying to find a starter for my 1939 Chrysler Windsor as the starter that was in the car is a later starter with no solenoid and was not working efficiently. Easier to replace than fix it because I want something newer and one of the brush springs in the plate were broken.

 

I don’t want to spend $200+ on a “rebuilt” exact fit starter but that seems like all I can find online. I bought a Massey Ferguson tractor starter that is practically identical to the old one, but I’m just having trouble bolting it in. Not 100% sure if it’ll work with my flywheel once it’s installed and to make it fit I have to grind a small groove in the starter housing  so it fits around a flywheel housing/engine block bolt. Only issue is if I grind it to fit I won’t be able to return the starter. Tough situation.. I see no reason for it not to work but I want to ask here before I’m stuck with a starter I can’t use and $120 out of pocket on it. 
 

Anyone had any luck finding a starter for their Chrysler inline-6 motor? 
 

Thanks for any help!

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by MercMontMars (see edit history)

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, MercMontMars said:

Easier to replace than fix it because I want something newer and one of the brush springs in the plate were broken.

2 hours ago, MercMontMars said:

 

I don’t want to spend $200+ on a “rebuilt” exact fit starter but that seems like all I can find online. I bought a Massey Ferguson tractor starter that is practically identical to the old one, but I’m just having trouble bolting it in.

Don't do that. Starters don't work like that. You could easily spent the rest of your life trying to find something to even fit, and then you wouldn't know whether the gear mesh is right and it would probably trash your flywheel, and then you would have to take the engine out. In any event, something from an unrelated vehicle like a Massey Ferguson won't fit. That way lies madness. Just don't.

 

Fix that starter. Is one of the tabs that holds the spring broke off or is it just the spring? If it's just a spring, buy one. Those springs are going to fit thousands of starters from the same starter manufacturer. If the tab is broke, buy a new end plate. That end plate probably fits a whole bunch of starters from the same starter manufacturer, too. See the circular thing in the center? It's an Oilite bushing. It will probably already be in the new end plate, but it is a separately obtainable part, so if it isn't there, buy one of those too.

 

You need an "auto electric" or "auto electric rebuild" shop. Most areas have one. It's a local guy who rebuilds starters, alternators, etc. They sell parts, and it's usually really affordable. There could be exceptions, but usually expensive parts are for semi-exotic things, and that isn't. That end plate is going to be a dirt-common part. You DO need to be able to identify what starter it is for.

 

I believe you said the engine is not original. Is there a tag on the starter with a manufacturer and a model number for the starter? That will do. In fact it is what you want, and is way more important than make, model and year. If not, you need to figure out what make/model/year the bellhousing and flywheel are. I would start by identifying the engine, and then try to figure out whether the transmission was changed too. It seems likely bellhousing and transmission would be original. Best if there's a tag on the starter. That's easier Throw all the parts in a box and go there and say you want to buy an end plate. They can figure it out from the numbers on the tag, but take the rest along anyway instead of just writing the number down because in my experience they always ask to see it.

 

Get brushes I guess. If none are shorter than the one in the pic, your old ones would probably still work if put back in exactly the same positions. If any are shorter though, probably not. In some other thread of yours, the commutator looked like it needed turning (machining), but I don't remember for sure. The auto electric guy can do that for you if it's necessary, or you can do it yourself if you can find a lathe somewhere. If you put new brushes in, you should turn (machine) the commutator, and you might have to if the contact area on the commutator is not flat enough to get a good contact while the new brushes break in. You don't "undercut the mica" on starters like you do on generators, so turning (machining) is a fairly simple affair. The old brushes already fit the commutator even if it isn't perfectly flat, so there's that, but they might be too short to work. You'll have to look. There's gotta be spring tension on the brush, the springs can't be bottomed out on the brush holder.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[MercMontMars]

@Bloo Thanks for the informative reply! I was worried about that, wasn’t sure if it’d damage anything even though it looks “right.” Gonna err on the side of caution and take your advice. I’d rebuild the starter myself, I’ve done it with my Pontiac’s AcDelco starter but this one is much more complicated and needs soldering which I’m not great at. It’s just the spring, it’ll need a new spring riveted in on the plate if I can’t just find a whole new plate.
 

As far as I know the motor is original to the car, I haven’t run the numbers but as far as I know it is. This car overall has appeared very untampered with and has a Chrysler inline-6 and 3 speed transmission with overdrive. You might’ve read another topic about my Pontiac which has a non-original 54’ Straight-8. 
 

I will start researching auto-electric shops in my area. Before I have it rebuilt I just want to figure out one last thing, which is if my car originally had a floor button starter. It’s unfortunate that someone changed it because they didn’t replace it with one that has a solenoid on it. No clue why they chose to replace rather than rebuild when they put in a starter that is just as old/worn than the original would’ve been. 

 

[Bloo]

34 minutes ago, MercMontMars said:

it’ll need a new spring riveted in on the plate if I can’t just find a whole new plate.

Those springs just come off, don't they? I believe they're separate pieces. If you unhook one from it's little brush box so it can unwind, it will just fall out I think. To put one in, reverse the process. Wind it up about like the others and hook it in the brush box. There should be nothing to rivet for just a bad spring. If a piece of metal is broken off where the tail of the spring is supposed to hook, then I guess you would need to rivet(?), if you could get the spring box thing(?), maybe?  But in that case, I think you would normally replace the whole plate with those spring box things already riveted on, and it would probably come with springs, but if it didn't come with springs you could just hook yours in there.

 

46 minutes ago, MercMontMars said:

 

As far as I know the motor is original to the car, I haven’t run the numbers but as far as I know it is. This car overall has appeared very untampered with and has a Chrysler inline-6 and 3 speed transmission with overdrive.

 

37 minutes ago, MercMontMars said:

Before I have it rebuilt I just want to figure out one last thing, which is if my car originally had a floor button starter.

I don't know either. Get the engine numbers and pics showing details together and ask. I am not as intimately familiar with Chrysler flatheads as @Rusty_OToole, @c49er, @keithb7 and several others around here, but I imagine there's help. The p-15/d-24 forums also have a lot of people who know Chrysler flatheads inside out. Once you have the info together it wouldn't hurt to ask over there too.

 

 

[MercMontMars]

@Bloo My mistake, it actually is the bracket where the spring coils onto. I don’t know how but it broke off and the plate needs a new spring bracket put in if it were to be fixed. I’ve done a little research and found a NOS plate on eBay for this starter so that is good news. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by MercMontMars (see edit history)

[keithb7]

I own a ‘38 Chrysler Royal 6 cylinder. It does not have a floor button starter. It has dash button that I push to activate the starter solenoid.  Is your ‘39 Chrysler a 6 or 8 cylinder? 
 

If an 8 cyl seek out a starter marked MAX4037.  If a 6 cylinder seek out starter MAX4020A.  If you search these on ebay you’ll see options. Personally I’d probably find a used starter core , marked as I indicated above. Then take it to a local starter rebuild shop and get it rebuilt there in your area. 

[keithb7]

This info may help you find something:

 

[MercMontMars]

@keithb7 I have the inline-6. Thank you for that, definitely helps my search. I have to look at the data plate on mine and see what I have now.

[Oldtech]

If your Massey starter is for a 101 Super it will be the same as they used the Chrysler engine.

[MercMontMars]

@Oldtech Good to know! The Ferguson starter I have is almost identical to the old one, only thing that stopped me from bolting it in was the base being too thick, literally an inch or less. Not 100% sure if it’s for a 101 Super though. This is what I bought:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224810011213?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=0amNRQmqT4q&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=pfqk-z0dthg&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited October 20, 2023 by MercMontMars (see edit history)

[MercMontMars]

Looks like I have a MCH-6101.

[MercMontMars]

Today while messing with the starter I actually discovered that my starter plate is perfectly fine, with the way the spring broke it looked like it was broken. I wasn’t really paying attention and assumed it was toast but it’s all good. I’ve ordered a new set of springs and brushes and I’m going to take a shot at fixing it. Only thing discouraging me is how the brushes are attached to the armature(?). It appears  that they are soldered or crimped. Before I try fixing this and mess up my connections how does this attach? What’s the best way to remove it so I can put a new one in? AcDelco starters are much easier, this starter is odd to me.

 

 

[Bloo]

The armature is the part that spins, those are field coils that the brushes are soldered to. It is going to take a pretty big soldering iron or gun, but on the bright side, it is a better connection than something bolted or screwed.

 

 

[Oldtech]

Yes, as Bloo says. You need an "Iron" you can't really use a flame , it's too close to the winding.  Some propane torches used to come with a solid copper tip that went on the end. One of those would work.  Another possibility is if you or one of your buddies has one of the old fashioned heavy soldering irons, they can be heated with a torch and work great.  Or... resort to the local electric motor shop.

[Bloo]

Yeah, flames are straight out. The old rule is ONLY ROSIN FLUX on electrical things, no acid, or acid core solder, or plumbing flux, etc. Only ROSIN CORE SOLDER, and if extra flux is used, then rosin also. That rule may be changed a little because there are electronic specific fluxes today that are not technically rosin, and one of those would be OK.

 

Rosin and similar fluxes appropriate for electronics won't work with a flame, They just burn, and the resulting ash fouls everything and makes the solder not flow. Lead/tin solder works best. 63/37 or 60/40 flow easiest. 50/50 and 40/60 are more viscous, and maybe a little more appropriate on something big like this, but also a little harder to work with. ANY of the above will do this job fine. Leadfree solder is a pain in the a**. It could do this job fine too, but if you are not comfortable soldering I wouldn't recommend it.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

Mercmont if your car does not have a starter relay or solenoid you can use a 6v Ford relay. They are common as dirt, used on millions of Fords, tractors, and many other things. Easy to get and cheap. Look different than the Chrysler relay but perform the same function.

 

[MercMontMars]

@Rusty_OToole That’s good to know, right now I have a typical 3-way solenoid in there but I have to manually jump the terminals when the starter is in as my ignition cylinder/starter button are not hooked up. I replaced it according to what was in there before I did anything, someone apparently changed over to this when they got rid of the original starter that had the Chrysler solenoid on it.
 

[MercMontMars]

Luckily I’ve still got some old fashioned tools lying around. Electric soldering iron should prove helpful for the starter job. I knew these would come in handy eventually!..

 

[JACK M]

Try this.

Start Your Car With a Rope (Dead Battery Life Hack) : 4 Steps (with Pictures) - Instructables

[Bloo]

That Iron is very close to what would have been used in 1939. The one they probably used on the starter was intended for telegraph, knob-and-tube house wiring, and radio. It would have a smaller tip and a bit less wattage. I have 2 or 3 of those because both of my grandfathers were in trades that used them.

 

On starters and any other huge electrical connections, I use one about like yours. The only downside is the akwardness of the giant tip. It sure does work extremely well for things like this. One caveat though, don't just leave it plugged in forever, just long enough to get hot plus about 3 minutes or so. Then solder and then unplug. Never leave it plugged in and unattended. An iron this big was meant for things like copper roof work, sheet metal, etc. and those things imply acid flux. As such, the thermal cutout in inside it is going to be set to a temperature too hot for rosin flux. It is impossible to keep the iron tinned if the flux is too hot and burning.

 

An iron must be tinned with solder to work well, and this is one spot where you may need to break the rules for just an instant. You can use plumber's flux to get the iron tinned, in other words make it "take solder". I prefer the water based plumbers flux to the grease, less messy. Killed acid for radiators works too. In 1939 they would have used sal-ammoniac, but not everyone has that laying around today. Whatever you use (assuming the iron doesn't just tin easy with rosin), you need to get the corrossive crap off of the iron before you solder on something electrical. Wipe the hot tip on a dripping wet paper towel or rag. Immediately after cleaning off the now shiny tinned tip, feed it some rosin core solder to help keep it tinned.

 

The #1 rule of soldering is "melt the solder with the work, not the iron". The solder alloys with the surface of the metal you are soldering. It won't work if the iron is the only thing hot enough to "tin". You ALWAYS feed the solder to the work, not the iron. Well almost always. Here is one more place you can break the rules, but only for an instant. You can feed a *tiny* bit of solder to the iron when you are heating the connection up. This is all about heat transfer. It gets the rosin flowing out onto the connection, and helps transfer heat.

 

One more thing, Bloo's rule of soldering : "Get in, get done, and get out". In your case, if you are soldering directly to a wire braid, there is an extra challenge. The solder wants to wick up the braid and make it stiff. Obviously you don't want that. Dumping a whole bunch of heat into the connection QUICKLY before the surrounding area starts to get too hot is the secret. The thermal mass of that gigantic tip will help it happen, and it is the reason I use a soldering iron about like yours for this job. I'd have the iron tinned, god and hot, and then I would lay the flat side of the tip against the outside of that connection (not the braid) for maximum heat transfer. Get the connection good and hot fast, feed it solder at the back side (side facing left in your picture, furthest away from the flexible part of the wire), and as soon as you see it "Flow out" on both the lug and the brush wire at the back of the connection, pull the iron away.

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[rodneybeauchamp]

And my tip.

 

Make sure the two surfaces to be bonded/joined/soldered are clean clean clean!

 

Mechanically clean the surfaces with a small file so they are bright and shiny otherwise they will not join. 
 

And make sure the parts don’t move while soldering otherwise you may get a dry joint that will not work.

 

Ask me how I know this ☹️☹️☹️☹️

 

Good luck, looking forward to your success!

Rodney, just my two bobs worth down under 😀😀😀😀😀