Interesting idea for needed parts - 3D printing + electroplating ,

[californiamilleghia]

I found this guy on youtube , he 3D prints parts and then electroplates them , 

This might be the idea for lost small trim parts , he has a lot of videos if you want to go down that Rabbit Hole.

 

 

 

 

[joe_padavano]

Actually this technique has been around for a long time. Years ago cell phone manufacturers started printing prototype cell phone housing parts then realized that they needed to plate them to mimic the electromagnetic properties of a metal case in testing.

[Gary_Ash]

Interesting post!  Additionally, there are conductive versions of standard PLA filament that incorporate carbon black into the PLA.  Conductivity is about 30 ohm-cm along a layer, 115 ohm-cm through the printed layers.  It might be enough to allow plating directly without spraying graphite.  Some 3D printed materials can be electroless nickel plated which gives coverage over edges and down into holes.  Once a thin nickel layer covers the surface, any other metal can be electroplated on top.  

 

One of my car buddies wanted to make a reproduction of a stamped sheet stainless steel grille badge that has a very complex shape.  It strikes me that if a 3D printed model of the part was made, it could be electroplated with nickel to a thickness of 0.010 to 0.020 inch and the plated "electroform" part separated from the plastic base.  The plating takes about 1 hour for each 0.001 inch of thickness, but this is a very common process.  Caswell Plating sells kits for doing this at home, though expensive.  There are also copper electroforming kits on Amazon.

[TTR]

Unless employed for replicating some originally plastic components, like dash or interior trim commonly found in 1960's and later production vehicle, I find this 3D printing of parts idea being almost complete contradiction to historical preservation of antique/classic/vintage vehicles, etc.

Instead of being enamored by more plastic replication (i.e. fakery) to simulate the appearance of authenticity, why not endorse/support craftsman- /entrepreneurship of someone making them in actual materials and/or methods originally available & used in OEM manufacturing ?

No wonder the future of this hobby appears bleak and getting worse, but I guess in today's world everything is expected to be achieved by automation & computers, etc. 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

Perhaps you missed the point, @TTR.  The use of computers, laser scanning, 3D printing, CNC machining, and other modern technologies allows us to make replacement parts in the original materials or suitable substitutes (aluminum for bad pot metal, for example) in quantity "one of".  Few cases would allow the manufacture of stamping dies or complex foundry patterns when there is no call for 10,000 parts or more.  

 

As an example, here are pictures of the severely corroded water pump impeller for Edinmass's 1917 White and the replacement made by creating a 3D model on the computer, 3D printing a pattern, and investment casting a silicon bronze replacement which was machined to final dimensions.  You can't just go out and buy parts like this from the dealership.  How else would you obtain one?

 

The original aluminum impeller

 

The new impeller on the water pump shaft with a newly machined drive gear.

 

 

[Fordy]

31 minutes ago, TTR said:

why not endorse/support craftsman- /entrepreneurship of someone making them in actual materials and/or methods originally available & used in OEM manufacturing ?

It all boils down to the cost of labor. In the ideal world original parts 100% but the world is far from ideal, 100-year-old new parts are thin on the ground and those who have them want astronomical sums. Gary_Ash has the classic example above on the application of the technology.

Do the math on paying someone to go through all the steps to make a pattern, have an item cast and machined and you very soon look at big numbers. A 3d model is not destroyed in the process so multiples are easier, printed tolerances can be close to spec so a lot less final machining. Economics win out in the end unless you are wallowing around in so much disposable income that you don't know what to do with it.

Steve

[Gary_Ash]

Actually, the 3D printed PLA plastic pattern is destroyed when using it in a "lost wax" type of investment casting.  No problem, though, when only a few parts are needed.  A few hours of unattended time for the 3D printer and $1 worth of material produces another pattern.  We made four for Ed's impeller project so that there would be a spare for him and some parts for other people.  But, for making more parts, the 3D printed part is used to make a silicone rubber mold and wax copies for casting are made from it.

 

Four 3D printed patterns for investment casting via a "lost wax" process.

 

A 3D printed pattern (white) and investment cast carburetor linkage arms (before machining) made from wax replicas made in a silicone rubber mold of the white part.  The silicon bronze parts were nickel plated after machining.  Dimples are for alignment for drilling.

 

 

[TTR]

Gentlemen, I think you might've miss my point or I failed to convey my concerns correctly.

 

As an enthusiast/hobbyist I've been restoring and working on vintage cars for about 45 years and past 35+ years it has been my full-time occupation, have done (and still do) most aspects of it myself and experienced with both old-school hands-on casting/fabrication/machining/etc and have also had components made by utilizing modern day, computerized technologies, so I feel I have some comprehension of economics and/or labor intensiveness involved with most, but same time I'm (and have been for long time) saddened by the fact that all this modern technology, combined with economics (think: Made In C***a) is taking over the old-school/-world craftsmanship, which soon will be, if not already, lost by/for younger generations.

 

For full disclosure, as part of my restoration business, I also reproduce and market variety of vintage car components and parts, although most are for very limited markets.

Some are being made exactly as they were 50, 60, 70+ years ago, while others, due to cost effectiveness, at least partially rely on inclusion of some modern technologies.

Edited October 15, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Three D printing of the parts themselves seems a less than satisfactory solution in many cases. But 3 D printing of cores and patterns like Gary mentions seems like a great solution.

[Fordy]

8 hours ago, TTR said:

old-school/-world craftsmanship, which soon will be, if not already, lost by/for younger generations

I also lament the same, but I believe there will be people around to keep skill alive - just a lot fewer of them, after all there are still people beating out suits of Armour and how much need is there for that?

Sadly the number of skilled people dwindles with time and if the US is like Australia they don't even offer apprenticeships for some trades any more or if they do its a "wishy-washy version of one. When did a "panel beater" become someone who can only remove the damaged one and replace with new? That is what that trade has become here and finding someone skilled to do a repair is getting harder and harder. Pattern Maker is another one - all computerized as is "Machinist" which only teaches CNC stuff. We may have already gone past the tipping point.

[joe_padavano]

7 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Three D printing of the parts themselves seems a less than satisfactory solution in many cases. But 3 D printing of cores and patterns like Gary mentions seems like a great solution.

Actually, 3D printing of metallic parts has been available for a lot of years now. The issue is cost and size, both of which are improving. In the aerospace world we routinely print metallic rocket engine components, which obviously have a much more stressing environment than any automotive parts. Machines exist to print metallic parts in sizes comparable to engine blocks and heads now. Materials that can be printed include copper, aluminum, stainless steel, nickel, and titanium. It is even possible to switch materials as you print, allowing you to make a part with, say, steel fittings for strength and copper features for cooling. As the number of machines grows, costs are dropping. Stay tuned.

 

Here is a 3D printed rocket engine chamber under test by NASA.

 

[TTR]

4 hours ago, Fordy said:

I also lament the same, but I believe there will be people around to keep skill alive - just a lot fewer of them, after all there are still people beating out suits of Armour and how much need is there for that?

Sadly the number of skilled people dwindles with time and if the US is like Australia they don't even offer apprenticeships for some trades any more or if they do its a "wishy-washy version of one. When did a "panel beater" become someone who can only remove the damaged one and replace with new? That is what that trade has become here and finding someone skilled to do a repair is getting harder and harder. Pattern Maker is another one - all computerized as is "Machinist" which only teaches CNC stuff. We may have already gone past the tipping point.

I agree, but we don’t even have to consider anything like machinist, panel beater, etc.

 

Just think of the ever dwindling number of skilled “mechanics” who could actually rebuild/repair/service variety of individual components they find failing/failed in vehicles compared to “technicians” (rhymes with a “beauticians” ?) commonly known to just replace those same components and from what I hear or have seen, often without even knowing what the components does or how it works. 
 

Yet, with the ever escalating/expanding growth of CAD and other technologies, I can easily see a not too distant future where anyone can have a “classic car” or all the parts to assemble one with a push of a “print”-button … 😢

 

And as far as I'm aware, apprenticeship along with vocational education programs for skilled hands-on mechanical type trades in the U.S., or at least here in California, went a way of the dodo bird decades ago already, all thanks to my generation, i.e "Boomers". 

Edited October 15, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[jp1gt]

I thought that 3D printing was going to be the answer. I got some quotes and copying the part and printing it is WAY more expensive than casting it in brass. Please prove me wrong! One other thing, I have finally mastered the hydochrome process. Everybody that sees the end product can not tell the difference. I only took me a year to get it right!!! 

[mechanician]

As manufacturing volumes have increased processes have necessarily changed from hand built (be that beating panels over a leather bag, hand forging or machining with general purpose machines etc.) to using production machinery (stamping, screw machines, cnc, etc). These changes are not recent, they have been occurring since the earliest days of the automobile. To Gary’s point it is not feasible to reconstruct production machinery for a single piece. It never has been, it never will be, and craftsmanship is not the issue. Making a single die casting mold may easily exceed the value of the restored vehicle, for instance.  If that mold makes 100k parts, then the cost per part is minimal. Where these printing technologies have excelled to date is in making almost as good surrogates for that production machinery to allow for a small run of parts, albeit perhaps requiring a bit more hand work than the original. Think printed patterns, sand cores etc. Also cnc machining parts that were once forged but for which the dies are long gone for instance. Short of a time machine, it is the best we have, and if it can get a dead pile of parts to run down the road then we and those that come after us will be better for it. And as far as the craftsmanship of those hand built cars…I have seen and corrected some original work on low volume brass cars that was unbelievably bad… The sky is not falling (at least in regards to this subject).

[mechanician]

Also, we are a long, long, way away from push button and print car… if we ever get there in a cost effective way with competitive material properties the non-automotive implications will be incredible. I am not holding my breath.

[ZoeHillo]

If you're working on a 3D printing project and need specific parts for electroplating, one thing to keep in mind is that 3D printing can give you a solid base for replicating intricate details, especially for those hard-to-find small pieces.

[drhach]

It seems like if you want to lament the loss of craftsman, you probably should start with Henry Ford. Working on an assembly line is soul-crushingly tedious with little to no room for "Craftsmanship". To me, it seems like having the ability by way of any means to recreate a one-off object is the epitome of "craft". 

[Fordy]

On 9/24/2024 at 4:24 AM, ZoeHillo said:

If you're working on a 3D printing project and need specific parts for electroplating, one thing to keep in mind is that 3D printing can give you a solid base for replicating intricate details, especially for those hard-to-find small pieces.

Very fine detail will be at a minimum "blurred". The usual resolution stated is the layer thickness and it has to be taken into consideration that there will be some loss of the details as one layer melts into the previous one. I have recently encountered this when asked to look into having some Franklin parts done, most of the very fine embellishments simply came out fuzzy.

Steve

[JOHN GRUNDER]

HI I like rubber mold and lost wax . H ave many parts made for 1926 up stutz. I made10 or 12 parts cheaper then 3d john grunder 8608060448 thanks