1964 Riviera - Clunk noise while accelerating and braking

[Markus64]

Hello guys,

 

I have this issue, since I have my 64 Riv. When accelerating fast a clunk noise appears once. When I brake carefully then, everything seems fine. When I brake stronger the clunk noise appears once again.  It seems like the part that is moving only changes its position when there is a strong load change (When I brake hard and the noise appears it doesn´t appear again when braking hard. It´s the same with acceleration).
The clunk is coming from the front left of the car.  When it appears I can feel it through the drivers side floor, next to the pedals.

 

Sometimes it appears when I drive over bigger bumps or potholes.

 

I changed both motor mounts 2 month ago but it didn´t change anything.

 

Do you have an idea where to start troubleshooting?

 

 

[EmTee]

Check the left (and right) reaction rod bushings.  Do you notice any 'pull' to the left when braking hard?

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/171878-brake-reaction-rod-bushings/

 

[XframeFX]

8 hours ago, Markus64 said:

The clunk is coming from the front left of the car.

I have this exact same issue except I do not feel it through the pedals. Not too concerned and I will get to it after addressing ticking time bombs to make my '63 Riviera reliable. But, getting worse, another ticking time bomb?

Yesterday, took a crowbar to the front-end with wheels on the ground. No, not reaction rod bushes, my 1st assumption. No to engine and transmission mounts. No to upper control arm shaft. Steering gear, solid. Next, ball joints. New WSW tires scheduled for tomorrow. Will ask tire shop to inspect. Will report back what I find.

[RivNut]

If it’s only on acceleration or braking, have you considered U-joints?

[EmTee]

Transmission mount?

[XframeFX]

5 hours ago, RivNut said:

If it’s only on acceleration or braking, have you considered U-joints?

I guess I'll brake in Neutral on the way to the tire shop tomorrow. But I doubt it. Clunk is from the left front.

Riviera brakes straight, does not pull either way

[EmTee]

I had an intermittent 'click' in the front of my '67 which I suspected was a worn sway bar bushing.  I replaced both sides a couple of weeks ago and the click hasn't been back.  Yours sounds like a bigger piece, given the 'clunk'.  What about lower or upper control arm bushings?

[XframeFX]

13 hours ago, EmTee said:

Yours sounds like a bigger piece, given the 'clunk'.

I did not investigate this today. One reason is that the Riviera did not go up on their Lift after I showed them Lift points. They decided upon floor jacks. Again I showed them where to lift. Did the front first then before I knew, they had the rear up on Rocker pinch welds. It held! However, out in the parking lot, I noticed one side is bent. Must have happened lowering off those jacks.

 

I'll investigate that clunk some other time. Enough Riviera for now😕

[RivNut]

Bummer. 

[EmTee]

I hate when that happens - particularly AFTER telling them where to jack.  I made a jack block out of a scrap piece of 2x4 wood for my daughter's PT Cruiser years ago.  I cut a slot into the block for the pinch weld to fit into, then I could safely use my floor jack on the block without bending anything.

[crowvet]

12 hours ago, XframeFX said:

I did not investigate this today. One reason is that the Riviera did not go up on their Lift after I showed them Lift points. They decided upon floor jacks. Again I showed them where to lift. Did the front first then before I knew, they had the rear up on Rocker pinch welds. It held! However, out in the parking lot, I noticed one side is bent. Must have happened lowering off those jacks.

 

I'll investigate that clunk some other time. Enough Riviera for now😕

That will dolly out pretty easily with a flat body hammer and a toe dolly on the backside.

[RivNut]

Get an estimate from a body shop to have the repairs made then present it to the shop that was negligent. Make them pay. At least they might listen to the next customer and you might get some money back.  I’m sure that the paint cracked where it was bent and even more when you pound it back out exposing some raw metal to the elements.  

[XframeFX]

50 minutes ago, crowvet said:

That will dolly out pretty easily with a flat body hammer and a toe dolly on the backside.

I bent back some of it with one steel flat bar (needed two) and one vice grip (needed two). So, now might be able to finish with a dolly & hammer. Only, my body hammer is not heavy enough and my heel dolly is not large enough. A large Ball Peen Hammer and a mini anvil. Delicate paint surrounds that area.

 

The rear body mount came to mind being lifted that way.

 

I didn't go back to complain. They were nice to me. Identified 4 wheels are #853s and the spare a #895. They were simply pre-occupied and inexperienced.

[Markus64]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:59 PM, EmTee said:

Check the left (and right) reaction rod bushings.  Do you notice any 'pull' to the left when braking hard?

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/171878-brake-reaction-rod-bushings/

 

I didn't notice any pull to the left when braking hard. I will get a crowbar trying to figure it out.

[Markus64]

On 9/18/2023 at 2:46 PM, EmTee said:

I had an intermittent 'click' in the front of my '67 which I suspected was a worn sway bar bushing.  I replaced both sides a couple of weeks ago and the click hasn't been back.  Yours sounds like a bigger piece, given the 'clunk'.  What about lower or upper control arm bushings?

It sounds and feels like something bigger is moving.

[EmTee]

Maybe control arm bushings?

[NTX5467]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:59 AM, XframeFX said:

I didn't go back to complain. They were nice to me. Identified 4 wheels are #853s and the spare a #895. They were simply pre-occupied and inexperienced.

In reality, to me, this was probably the best thing to do.  Especially if you need to go back there again for something.  Next time, suggest they use the center of the rear axle housing to get both rear wheels off the ground.

 

Perhaps some of the lifting blocks, as mentioned, can be stowed in the trunk, getting them out when needed.  This might well not be the last time for needing them, I suspect. 

 

In the special tools we got with our Jeep-Renault Special Tools were some wooden lifting blocks to use on the rocker panel pinch welds, back in 1982 when we were a Jeep-Renault dealer for about 6 months.  Perhaps you could do a short write-up for the "Riview"?

 

One of the "things" about driving an older car, plus getting it serviced, is that most of the people who might be working on it have never seen anything like it before and treat it "as a modern car" they are used to dealing with.  Of course, due to their age, they have no idea of how different they might be OR that the vehicle might be damaged by "modern techniques".  SO, you have to choose the shops wisely.  If you'd had the lifting blocks prior to this, you could have laid them out and kindly instructed the service people of how to use them?

 

We might not think about these things and certainly the younger people doing the work have not been instructed to think about them either.  OR to ask for special instructions.  

 

The common chassis lift points of the center of the front crossmember and the center of the rear axle housing do not exist on modern fwd cars as they did on the older (or newer) rear wheel drive cars.  Many newer lifts lift on the rocker panels themselves, which would make the lifting blocks mandatory in this case.

 

Most of the lifting blocks I've seen of late are round pucks with a slot cut across them for the pinchweld to fit into.  Perhaps a piece of 4x4 fence wood might be also used, for a longer contact point on the rocker panel?  To spread out the lifting force?    Cutting them into 12"-18" lengths?

 

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited September 20, 2023 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[gungeey]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:59 AM, XframeFX said:

I bent back some of it with one steel flat bar (needed two) and one vice grip (needed two). So, now might be able to finish with a dolly & hammer. Only, my body hammer is not heavy enough and my heel dolly is not large enough. A large Ball Peen Hammer and a mini anvil. Delicate paint surrounds that area.

 

The rear body mount came to mind being lifted that way.

 

I didn't go back to complain. They were nice to me. Identified 4 wheels are #853s and the spare a #895. They were simply pre-occupied and inexperienced.

use a ball joint remover to press it straight

[XframeFX]

49 minutes ago, NTX5467 said:

Perhaps a piece of 4x4 fence wood might be also used, for a longer contact point on the rocker panel?  To spread out the lifting force?    Cutting them into 12"-18" lengths?

Yes, Emtee mentioned this too. Great advise on this, thanks. However, it would be still lifting the body. I lift at frame points, axle tube for one rear wheel or differential bump for both wheels which K instructed them to do.

Yes, will use my ball joint tool!

Good Idea for Riview write-up. Would apply to G2 as well.

[RivNut]

IF you think that you MUST lift your car using the pinch welds, put your dado blade in your table saw and cut some 1/4” kerfs in lengths of a 4”x4”.  But you are still better off lifting using the frame.  

[NTX5467]

I agree, a frame lift would be much better.  Perhaps a page of the service manual indicating "lift points" could be copied and laminated to remain in the vehicle?  Might even sell them?

 

NTX5467

[RivNut]

I don’t know of any specified lift points. Just a matter of getting the arms on the lift in the right places for balance.  I had my 64 on a lift for about a month. But the two post lift we used had long enough arms to reach under the far enough forward and back to support the car safely.

 

We thought about getting some 2” x 3” HD rectangular tubing and making cross bars that could be connoted to the lift arms and using the existing pads to make a more stable platform but it wasn’t necessary. Would have been necessary on the smaller lift though.

[EmTee]

I think one issue is at least some of the modern 2-post lifts commonly used by shops can't reach the recommended lift points on X-frame cars like the 1st and 2nd generation Riviera.  Either suggest they use a floor jack, or a 4-post lift with built-in sliding axle jack (which is what I have).

[Torch54]

Could it possibly be a bad shock?

[XframeFX]

28 minutes ago, Torch54 said:

Could it possibly be a bad shock?

Possibly. Will check that too. TX.

[XframeFX]

On 9/23/2023 at 8:43 PM, Torch54 said:

Could it possibly be a bad shock?

Just attempted another partial inspection to determine Left Side 'Clunk'.

This is the lower right side shock absorber mount. The left side is still intact. Again, found nothing, all is tight and solid with a crowbar.

Need to remove those shock absorbers for a better inspection but, as you can see, will not go back in. Will splurge for George's Bilsteins over the winter.

 

I usually address deficiencies before they they become as bad as that lower mount. Never noticed earlier. Must be recent degradation.

 

Typical Riviera, like my rough idle, no silver bullet to left side clunk . . . as yet.

 

[RivNut]

This is not untypical for old rubber. That’s why you don’t trust tires that are over 7 years old, nothing you can do to stop Mother Nature.

 

[XframeFX]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

That’s why you don’t trust tires that are over 7 years old

Good relations between Firestone and Ford. That is until driving an overloaded 1st Generation Explorer with under inflated Firestone Wilderness ATs on a hot Texas Hwy at high speeds. Finger pointing between them ever since, not the operators!

 

I miss my 30 year old 225/75-15 BF Goodrich 3/4" WSWs!

I detected flat spots with my new Chinese tires yesterday while leaving the neighbourhood. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Google it. Don’t be cheap. Be safe rather than sorry.

 

Old tires have been the culprit in fatal accidents. Here are just two examples: 

In 2008, the owner of a 1998 Ford Explorer in Georgia needed a new tire for his SUV and bought a used one. When he was driving two weeks later, the tread suddenly separated from the tire. The Explorer went out of control and hit a motorcycle, killing its rider. An analysis of the used tire revealed that it was nearly 10 years old.

In a more recent and high-profile example, the investigation into the cause of the 2013 accident that killed the actor Paul Walker revealed that the Porsche Carrera GT in which he was riding had 9-year-old tires. The California Highway Patrol noted that the tires' age might have compromised their drivability and handling characteristics, according the LA Times.

Edited October 16, 2023 by RivNut (see edit history)

[EmTee]

12 hours ago, XframeFX said:

I detected flat spots with my new Chinese tires yesterday while leaving the neighbourhood.

Polyester/steel?  Hopefully they smooth out once they warm up.  Flat-spotting when cold used to be common with bias-ply nylon cord tires.

[XframeFX]

4 hours ago, EmTee said:

Polyester/steel?  Hopefully they smooth out once they warm up.

"SureTrac Power Touring":

On the sidewall says Tread has 2 ply Steel belts, 2 ply polyester belts, 1 ply nylon belt. Sidewall is polyester (of course).

No country of origin on WW side, must be on the back side.

I may have detected flat spots in error, scrutinizing too much maybe.

It' has been 3 weeks and the 1.4" WSWs are NOT growing on me! Park in the sun and have those loud WWs mellow out somewhat.

Can anyone see the "Clunk" emanating from this corner LOL?

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[EmTee]

18 hours ago, XframeFX said:

1 ply nylon belt.

^^^ There's the cold tire' bump'...

 

18 hours ago, XframeFX said:

It' has been 3 weeks and the 1.4" WSWs are NOT growing on me! Park in the sun and have those loud WWs mellow out somewhat.

FWIW, I think they look good.  Is it that they look 'too white' that you don't like?  If so, I suspect they will lose some of that brightness as they age.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[XframeFX]

7 hours ago, EmTee said:

I think they look good.  Is it that they look 'too white' that you don't like?  If so, I suspect they will lose some of that brightness as they age.

Thanks Tim. Your encouraging remarks will help with those WSWs growing on me! My hang-up is that I miss the look of 3/4" WSWs

 

More off topic on that front-end clunk. Now that I have locally sourced WSWs, I am looking to mount new tires on original 14" rims for my '57 Belair Project. This time, I do want these Suretrac WSWs (1.5" for 75 series). In-fact, even wider! So, thinking of applying white side wall paint in the 3/4" area between the ID whitewall and OD of the Bead. Easy to do, no masking. May not look perfect up close but, don't care at $97 CAD/tire/installed/balanced.

Has anyone used Atlas Paint?

[NTX5467]

In many tires, for over 10+ years, they have used the 2-ply polyester cord sidewall, with 2-ply steel belts on top of that, THEN a 1-ply nylon "cap" on top of all of that.  

 

The original radials of the 1960s, their outer two steel belts were at 90 degrees to the polyester plies which went bead-to-bead.  That gave them the "radial feel" on the highway, but also contributed to the more noticeable "impact" non-absorption at lower speeds.  Then when the P-Metrics came around, with their 35psi inflation pressure, the outer steel belts were angled a few degrees for better impact absorption, but still have the benefits of radials.  Then, in order to have better alleged high speed durability, the outer nylon cap was added to make the tread more stable, or something like that.

 

I put some MIchelin Defenders on my 2005 LeSabre when I determined the Sears Michelin WeatherWise tires on it (when I bought it) were 10 years old.  As I drive it sporadically, letting it sit for months, sometimes, on that first drive, it can take up to 50 miles for them to roll smooth again.  Once smooth, no issues.  Keeping them near max inflation pressure tends to help.  The same brand and model of tires on my 2005 Impala do not display the "after sitting" behavior as it is the daily-use vehicle.

 

NTX5467

[RivNut]

3 hours ago, XframeFX said:

Thanks Tim. Your encouraging remarks will help with those WSWs growing on me! My hang-up is that I miss the look of 3/4" WSWs

 

More off topic on that front-end clunk. Now that I have locally sourced WSWs, I am looking to mount new tires on original 14" rims for my '57 Belair Project. This time, I do want these Suretrac WSWs (1.5" for 75 series). In-fact, even wider! So, thinking of applying white side wall paint in the 3/4" area between the ID whitewall and OD of the Bead. Easy to do, no masking. May not look perfect up close but, don't care at $97 CAD/tire/installed/balanced.

Has anyone used Atlas Paint?

Painting the tires would leave a lip. Depending on your needs, a nice set of full width "port-o-walls" might be your ticket.

[XframeFX]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

Painting the tires would leave a lip. Depending on your needs, a nice set of full width "port-o-walls" might be your ticket.

Port-a-Walls cost more than paint and never liked them. Made-in-Turkey for what it's worth. Only want to return my project back to a roller after selling Buick GN road wheels to go on another '57 Chev that runs and drives.

Not Coker or Diamondback but don't care. "Good from far but far from Good"😰

[EmTee]

Depending on the car, maybe blackwalls...?

[RivNut]

Aren’t there many manufacturers of port-o-walls.  You probably get what you pay for.

 

Or you could go this route

 

20” wheel with a built in wide white sidewall to replicate an original. You can then run new high performance 20” Z rated tires. 🤣

 

https://www.deluxewheels.com/the-wheels/

[NTX5467]

Back in the later 1950s, my favorite uncle lived east of Houston and worked the night shift as a maintenance tech at a petro-chemical plant.  He had two young daughters and a wife.  He drove Oldsmobiles or Buicks.  The car he had back then was an Olds 88, mid-50s.  In buying tires, he opted for the blackwalls and then put Port-O-Walls on it, with the orientation that he could change them to the next car he bought a few years later.  He also liked to drive fast, as did his wife.

 

One morning, when he got up, his wife asked what happened to one of the whitewalls.  Answer . . . it must have flown off on the way home.  On the typical two-lane road lined with trees, no telling where it ended up OR how high it went before it returned to earth.  Back then, I always got a kick out of that story.  Plus the possible look on the tire guy's face when my uncle showed up needing a new whitewall.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[XframeFX]

3 hours ago, RivNut said:

built in wide white sidewall to replicate an original

Cool, thanks Ed!