Locomobiles in Competition

[ak]

9 hours ago, rydersclassics said:

Fortunately an acquaintance does laser welding. An amazing process leaving a 1/16" weld to finish without warpage.

It took a couple of hours for me to carefully  knock down the weld with a grinder then finish sand the panel.   

Amazing

[alsfarms]

More interesting information about the 1908 Vanderbilt Cup has been provided on the Locomobile thread "What car is this".

Al

[alsfarms]

Hello Steve,

What is the latest progress report on your Locomobile special?

Al

[AHa]

Look, it's just my opinion, but I believe you have shortened your frame too much to build a gunboat style body on it. The bodies designed for Locomobile took into account the length of the frame. You're trying to shorten that body style and again, it's just my opinion, but it's not working. I think you would be better off with the Mercer style you started with or some variation. Again, I think the Locomobile roadsters look good because of the length of the frame, not in spite of it.

[alsfarms]

The discussion of wheelbase is certainly a personal determination of likes and dislikes. I am a LaSalle enthusiast as well as a Cadillac enthusiast........after number one Locomobile! The 1927-28 LaSalle Sport Roadsters, are in my eyes the most beautiful of all roadsters. Yes, they are shorter wheel bases than it's sister the Cadillac. I like the Cadillac roadsters 1926-31 also but not as well as the early LaSalle. To me it is proportions of the hood length, door width and quarter panel length......it's just "right"! That said I have the makings of a 1930 LaSalle 134" wheelbase roadster that I would trade for the makings of a 1927-28 LaSalle short wheelbase roadster. My thinking is Steve is building a one off "Special" with a stock hood configuration and shortened up back section. Good for you, it is going to  be nice. Share an update when you get the time.

Al

[AHa]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:18 AM, George K said:

I'd like to revisit the Rayfield model G carb. Does anybody have experience with this carburetor? Is it a stock Locomobile item? This particular carburetor has no provision for a choke that I can see; can anybody tell me the starting procedure?

[alsfarms]

I am curious what you learn regarding Rayfield carburetors.

Al

[rydersclassics]

Hello all,

 

We began our trip to Ca. Aug. 17 so nothing of progress to report Al.

 

Did 5 days in Monterey car week, made it to the Gooding auctions to see the 2 Locomobiles cross the block and totally agree with what's been said regarding the 2 sales.

My stomach is still queasy after watching the Sportif drive across under its own power then fall short.  

What a great buy for the new owner!

 

Made my once in a lifetime visit to Pebble Beach Concourse, got to the Nethercutt Museum for the second time, attended the San Marino Concourse, and the Lions Automobilia Foundation & Museum for desert.

Twenty two days on 2 wheels with only 4 hours of rain. A hurricane to the south and tropical storm in the southeast we were blessed the whole ride.

Had a fantastic experience, happy to be home!

 

I will have to research the choke question and also am interested if Locomobile installed this on any vehicle or is it an accessory only. There is a case to be made that the customer got whatever they wanted.

 

Also to AHa;

Thank you for your comments and opinion regarding wheelbase and design choices. I too love the traditional Speedster styling. I truly respect and appreciate your perspective and I am grateful for this input about my choices.

 

In addition to the pictures I posted of mockup efforts were 2 other configurations with tanks on top. All attempts felt comfortable but not progressive enough for my taste, in 1915 the world was changing. 

 

Had my car been a 1913 or 1914 the choice would have been simple. And yes in 1915 it would be a safe place to stay.   

 

Let me ask; If Locomobile had been in competition at the 1915 Vanderbilt Cup or at Indy would we have seen the DaCausse Parisian design influence in a race configuration?

To the long wheelbase (142") Locomobile Gunboat Roadster being too short at 128" for a step through Speedster I go back to my Jesse Vincent Speedster references.

Packard was known for its long wheelbases and comparably my 645 DCP has it's 145" wheelbase yet the Vincent Speedster had a 126.5" chassis and a very short tail. Then the production Speedster with doors went to 134.5" so your point is well taken.

In my eyes the Vincent Speedster is one of the most beautiful prototype automobiles ever made in America.

 

For me history has not given enough credit to Locomobile, DeCausse and Riker for the birth of the American Boattail body style (Gunboats) later used by Franklin, Packard, Hudson, Nash ect..

By my research Riker's car is the first Gunboat that fades down at the point, setting it apart from the other Gunboats and should be recognized more widely as the starting place of American Boattail body styling.

Thankfully DeCausse is widely acknowledged for designing the first American DCP. 

 

"In the eyes of the beholder".

 

 

Respectfully,

Steve

Edited September 7, 2023 by rydersclassics (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Steve, You got my attention with your comment about a cross country ride on two wheels and only 4 hours of rain. That is motorcycle talk! I assume that this ride was a husband and wife venture? What type of bike were you on? On the subject of wheelbase and racecars. The longer the wheelbase the more weight, balance and handling characteristics..  .......mostly bad, you will be dealing with. I am sure that is why most Indy cars are around 120" wheelbase!

Al

[rydersclassics]

Yes sir,

Linda and I picked up a 1 owner 2011 Electra Glide Classic with 2,500 original Miles in June planning for the trip. Put 8,600 more miles during this trip, very comfortable at 80mph all day and it didn't miss a beat. 

We think she's a keeper. 

 

I take AHa's point seriously and recognize for a purpose built racer speed and handling are all that matter at the end of the day. 

  

[AHa]

I noticed on the gunboats (the Riker car specifically)the tail does not taper down to a point,  but stays up about 6". Also the bottom lateral line seems to set in slightly from the top line with the nose of the tail over reaching the base just a tad. If you adapted this styling, it would make the tail appear longer. Your design is growing on me and I see your reasoning. By 1915, all race/speedsters had adopted the closed car look and the open car Mercer look was outdated. I believe lengthening the tail would improve the look, even if it was just aesthetics.

 

And, thank you for your kind words. It is hard to offer honest opinions but I believe one honest opinion is worth ten thousand yes men who will agree with whatever you say. What is it the bible says; there is safety in the multitude of council.

 

Concerning the Rayfield question, I posted the question in the technical thread and Grimy posted a response. The lever on the side of the carb, which doesn't appear to do anything, somehow floods the carb for starting. My race car had one on it but I was told it was overly complicated so I opted for a different carb, but now I wonder if I should switch back. The Rayfield was the original setup and the car was raced well past 1928. It must have been pretty good. By 1928, there were lots of great choices.

[alsfarms]

🙂 Your "keeper" comment made me smile as it can fit, rightly so, both Linda as well as your Harley! I own a Harley, out of the 70's. It is a very fun bike but absolutely not a comfortable bike at 80 mph. My wife, who is a keeper, and the old Harley,  also a keeper.....are not for long distance travelling.  I would not get my wife to share 8400 miles on my Harley, and I don't think I would make it either! Steve, are you going to Hershey this year to continue the hunt?

Al

 

 

[alsfarms]

I just noticed something about the potential design mocked up by Steve. I like the fact that the body design shown in the picture does not sit on top of the frame rails as most bodies do but saddle and completely cover the frame rails from the cowl back. From the cowl forward, the factory hood sills make that transition very nicely. That design must have been thought out not just by default.

Al

[rydersclassics]

Thanks for noticing, the sills are sitting on factory mounts at their original height to alight with the original hood sills.

I will finish with a half oval trim to add shape and a style line along the base then continuing up and around the tail.

[alsfarms]

I don't recall your chosen method, but I am assuming that you are going aluminum over a wood framework? Do you have a wheeling machine tucked away in your shop somewhere, to aid with body panel contouring?

Al

[rydersclassics]

Yes on the aluminum over wood and I don't own an English Wheel. Have used one and have access to one.

 

A friend keeps trying to get me to bring his home to my place but space is an issue like most people I know including my friend.

I may break down and move things around for the duration of this one.

One way or another we'll get it done.     

[alsfarms]

How close are you to finishing your "buck" to build the body skin to? I am spending some home brew engineering time to figure a way of forming new aluminum side splash aprons. This is a different method than using a wheeling machine.

Al

[ak]

19 hours ago, AHa said:

I noticed on the gunboats (the Riker car specifically)the tail does not taper down to a point,  but stays up about 6". Also the bottom lateral line seems to set in slightly from the top line with the nose of the tail over reaching the base just a tad. If you adapted this styling, it would make the tail appear longer. Your design is growing on me and I see your reasoning. By 1915, all race/speedsters had adopted the closed car look and the open car Mercer look was outdated. I believe lengthening the tail would improve the look, even if it was just aesthetics.

 

And, thank you for your kind words. It is hard to offer honest opinions but I believe one honest opinion is worth ten thousand yes men who will agree with whatever you say. What is it the bible says; there is safety in the multitude of council.

 

Concerning the Rayfield question, I posted the question in the technical thread and Grimy posted a response. The lever on the side of the carb, which doesn't appear to do anything, somehow floods the carb for starting. My race car had one on it but I was told it was overly complicated so I opted for a different carb, but now I wonder if I should switch back. The Rayfield was the original setup and the car was raced well past 1928. It must have been pretty good. By 1928, there were lots of great choices.

The Riker car is not a gun boat. 

period

[Walt G]

23 hours ago, rydersclassics said:

For me history has not given enough credit to Locomobile, DeCausse and Riker for the birth of the American Boattail body style (Gunboats) later used by Franklin, Packard, Hudson, Nash ect..

AMEN to that statement.  Most collectors do not really have a full picture of what was taking place regarding styling of cars in the WWI era. James Frank de Causse was from France, knew and worked for the coach builders there, came here to the USA as his sister lived here. I did a biography on him in 1981 for AQ , please read that if you can or care to then have a better understanding  of history.  It was an era when younger designers did not address the older designers unless they were spoken to first, so ideas and "shop talk" was not a communication factor. All this coming from what were considered the upper class level of designers now by most enthusiasts. Tom Hibbard ( of Hibbard & Darrin , etc) told me all of this in letters when I was researching the life of deCausse. He and I exchanged conversations as we both were artists and I taught art, architecture, design. The first person recollections of exactly what that era was like - socially, respectfully etc when communication was not instant like it is today and most information was in print on paper and drawings were done on paper as well not on a electronic device as is now. Pencils, erasers, rulers, ellipse templates ( made of wood) and skill, no buttons to push like I am now..........

[edinmass]

Tom Hibbard in many ways was one of the first true American body designers. The work he did with Rubay in Cleveland goes back to late 1915 and without question he was drawing some of the best designs in America. Much of his early work looks like what was being done in France at the time. He was one of the most talented and least well known of the real early designers. He was drawing cars while still in high school and some of them were actually constructed while he was still in school. I met his grandson two years ago while driving my 1917 White. He approached me and said Tom Hibbard designed your car. He was correct. Had a great conversation with him. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[ak]

20 hours ago, AHa said:

I noticed on the gunboats (the Riker car specifically)the tail does not taper down to a point,  but stays up about 6". Also the bottom lateral line seems to set in slightly from the top line with the nose of the tail over reaching the base just a tad. If you adapted this styling, it would make the tail appear longer. Your design is growing on me and I see your reasoning. By 1915, all race/speedsters had adopted the closed car look and the open car Mercer look was outdated. I believe lengthening the tail would improve the look, even if it was just aesthetics.

 

And, thank you for your kind words. It is hard to offer honest opinions but I believe one honest opinion is worth ten thousand yes men who will agree with whatever you say. What is it the bible says; there is safety in the multitude of council.

 

Concerning the Rayfield question, I posted the question in the technical thread and Grimy posted a response. The lever on the side of the carb, which doesn't appear to do anything, somehow floods the carb for starting. My race car had one on it but I was told it was overly complicated so I opted for a different carb, but now I wonder if I should switch back. The Rayfield was the original setup and the car was raced well past 1928. It must have been pretty good. By 1928, there were lots of great choices.

The Wilkenson designed early Franklin carbs had no choke. Starting was accomplished by a lever on the float bowl cover operated by a knob near the hand crank.

works just fine

[AHa]

I'm sorry. We were talking about gunboats and Riker's car and Passey's car and I got confused and misspoke. I was referencing the tail end of Passey's car.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by AHa (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

Aha

No reason to be sorry for engaging in discussion and debate.

 

We are blessed to still have people among us that have dedicated there lives to educating us and the preservation of historical records that otherwise would have vanished leaving speculation and forceful opinions to rule the day.

As you may know Walt G. is one of the very few who has and still dedicates his life to education, the preservation of records and automotive design history.

He is a primary source of the knowledge that todays orators share in their leadership rolls.

Who's shoulders do we stand on?

 

To quote you earlier this too "is just my opinion".

 

 

 

    

            

Edited September 17, 2023 by rydersclassics (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Steve, Maybe I missed something. What is the wheel ase of the black Packard speedster show above with your proposed body build on the Locomobile? There is a very similar design

Al

[rydersclassics]

Al

The black Jesse Vincent Speedster had a 126.5" wheelbase. I'm at 128" WB with my project.

I think in was in the text of my long winded comparison. 

 

    

            

[alsfarms]

I am sure I read every word you wrote, but it may not have stuck in my memory.

Al

[rydersclassics]

No worries Al

Here is the quote from the earlier text.

 

"Packard was known for its long wheelbases and comparably my 645 DCP has it's 145" wheelbase yet the Vincent Speedster had a 126.5" chassis and a very short tail. Then the production Speedster with doors went to 134.5" so your point is well taken.

In my eyes the Vincent Speedster is one of the most beautiful prototype automobiles ever made in America."

[alsfarms]

Steve, I absolutely agree with your thoughts on the short tail and proportions of the Vincent Speedster. I personally like a shorter tail and prefer the longer tails of the Indy style race cars.

Al

[Walt G]

this continues to be a very very interesting discussion - being spoken about by  "hands on " enthusiasts and those of us who look at information, images, photographs of the period to form our comments and conclusions the best we can.  I admire those that take the time to do the research if they can access the original material - that isn't easy. Some of us have been very fortunate to be able to see what was "then" and share that, not base our judgements and comments on "myths" that have been going on since the immediate postwar (WWII) era.  Recently again I was told by someone "You are an expert" NO I AM NOT - do not believe there is such a person or thing. Just that some of us have had access to material that others haven't  and also paid attention to those people that were there in first person to experience the history in the making.  I recall in person conversations many times with people like Rudy Creteur ( Rollston/Rollson coachwork) Rene and Maurice Dreyfus of pre war French race car etc. All down to earth people who enjoyed sharing what they experienced and had a ready audience ( me) who wanted to know all the small details too. Not sure why I was like that when I was in my 20's and they in their 70's but history has always been of interest ( local and state history beyond the car history as well). Hope my comments don't come across as a lecture , but do hope it makes you more observant and a better listener when and if you can have a conversation .

Edited September 17, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[AHa]

I appreciate Walt's comments and understand why, as knowledgeable as he is, he would say I am no expert. History is fickle. You can think you know all there is to know and then a new piece of information can come to light, as it often does, that can change history. All we can do is educate ourselves as best we can with the information available to us and be open to learning something new.

[rydersclassics]

Though I would mention this here on the Locomobile In Competition tread.

 

While at Carlisle Thursday, the AACA Tent was set up recruiting members (mine had lapsed).  

On the table was a pile of Antique Automobiles, cover pictured below.

 

This is a FANTASTIC ISSUE! Get your hands on a copy.

 

The coverage of Locomobile in racing and the resurrection of number 1 by the Dragones is great reading. 

 

I finally got to see Old 16 at Pebble Beach last month.

Saw Number 1 at the Iron Range Show and Swap meet in June, they have done an amazing job resurrecting this race car. 

 

The article also mentions it will be on display at Hershey this week.

 

 You've got to see it!     

Edited September 30, 2023 by rydersclassics (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

WOW!

 

KAR3516 posted these last night 

 

Though I would add them here on In Competition.

Edited October 12, 2023 by rydersclassics (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Thanks Steve, Did y get a chance to hear this Locomobile run? Have you also been up close to Old 16? I wonder how closely they are built? Did you happen to see what MFG. the carburetor is?  It took some serious effort to get this Locomobile to this point and what a beauty it is.

Al

[AHa]

The carburetor looks to be a Stromberg and would have been a custom order. In the day, Stromberg would make an aluminum bodied carburetor for any race car, otherwise, they were all brass or bronze bodied. The larger question for me is: Is this the car once owned by Coburn Benson, or is there another Locomobile racer out there?

Edited October 12, 2023 by AHa (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

From the story I have heard, this one was not owned by Coburn Benson.

[rydersclassics]

 

 

I didn't get away from my space at Hershey as much as I had hoped so no on hearing #1 run. 

 

Here are 2 pictures I took at Pebble Beach.

Talked briefly with the guys presenting Old 16, there is no plan to get it running again.

  

Edited October 14, 2023 by rydersclassics (see edit history)

[rydersclassics]

The final shape is coming in to focus with the beginning of body wood construction an the help of photo shop! 

[alsfarms]

Hello Steve, 

This is an exciting update on your speedster project. Here is a question. What are your plans for fenders? Are you thinking of modified original fenders or full on custom?

Al

[rydersclassics]

Al

Sorry for the slow response we are traveling this week.

 

You my recall the pair of aluminum front fenders I posted earlier.

They closely resemble the 1915 drawing.

 

Doing this from my phone so limited access to pictures.

 

If you look at the second picture in my above post and expand the background wall you will see pictures of the 1915 design above my photoshopped version of Riker's Roadster.

My plan is to come as close to the original design as possible minus doors.

 

We scaled the original picture down to my 128 inch wheelbase taking  14 inches from the quarter panel. The proportions match the drawing scale as well as the front fender style.

 

Will have to fashion rears from scratch.

 

You may notice we have added 9 inches to the tale pattern.

When  I hung the rear springs the back it looked to stumpy.

 

Past comments were appreciated and helped me take pause and reevaluate.

 

This configuration should more closely resemble the rear proportions of Riker's car and allow me to use the original gas tank in stock location.

Hopefully more true to the mark.

 

As always comments are encouraged!

 

 

 

 

 

[AHa]

The rear fenders of the black car appear to have been laid down somewhat with the fender front positioned well before the tire. The picture on the wall behind appears to show a rear fender closer to the tire at the bottom front. If memory serves, these fenders do not have bottom lips and so an original set might could be rebent or reconfigured to suit your design. Just something to think about. Looking good, by the way. I was wondering what progress you had made.