m-mman Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 OK here is the full history of this car. From "The American Rolls Royce" by Arthur Soutter 1976. It seems the original owner prefered to spend $11,000 modifying and updating his 11 year old car than $6500 on a new Pierce Arrow 12. An incredible story from the Classic era AND an important piece of RR history, (clearly a 1 of 1 car) BUT how does it fit in with car collectors and car shows in the 21st century? As discussed, the neither fish nor fowl aspect and the definition of "preservation of original features" is stretched to the limits of any current evaluation or judging standards. As an expert and admirer of both makes, perhaps we can get a comment from Ed on his opinion of modifying a Springfield Ghost instead of buying a new Pierce 12? 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 37 minutes ago, m-mman said: As an expert and admirer of both makes, perhaps we can get a comment from Ed on his opinion of modifying a Springfield Ghost instead of buying a new Pierce 12? Touche! Nicely stroked, @m-mman!! 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 The dates in the book seem slightly off. Interestingly, if we believe the author's account of owning the car in 1933 (as second owner) then the original owner, after modifying the car extensively, and thanking RR of Springfield, only kept the car for one year.....Perhaps he still eyed the PA afterall.🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 I know it is a personal thing, and I prefer 1920s sedans over the cars of the 1930s. But I definitely like the car better in its original form. That, however, should not influence anyone considering this car! It does look very nice in its early 1930s form. And since rebodies and factory upgrades are very much a part of high end Classics, the car is fit and era proper for what it is, an era factory upgraded Classic automobile. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted May 31, 2023 Author Share Posted May 31, 2023 17 hours ago, Grimy said: Touche! Nicely stroked, @m-mman!! George, I was getting something awesome queued up and then I saw the end of the post... You need to throw the pitch and let someone else hit it out of the park! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 I have more love for the car after reading the story. I like the after better than the before as well. It must have been a great car for the owner to pay the price and half again of a new PA to have an 11 yo car rebuilt! Makes me want to pony up and buy the darn thing, 'honey, get my checkbook!'. AJ feel free to bonk me in the head with a bat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted May 31, 2023 Author Share Posted May 31, 2023 16 hours ago, Grimy said: Touche! Nicely stroked, @m-mman!! 32 minutes ago, TAKerry said: I have more love for the car after reading the story. I like the after better than the before as well. It must have been a great car for the owner to pay the price and half again of a new PA to have an 11 yo car rebuilt! Makes me want to pony up and buy the darn thing, 'honey, get my checkbook!'. AJ feel free to bonk me in the head with a bat. Kerry, all good friends talk their friends into blowing money on stupid things. Ask Ed. Please buy this so I can drive down and sit in it. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Still waiting for the wife to get me the checkbook, she hid it after I drug the last trans am home! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 The original owner of this Rolls-Royce took the appeal to economy seriously of purchasing a higher-quality car in spite of the higher initial cost because it would be functional and longer-lived than less-expensive cars, ergo fewer times needing to trade for a new car. This idea shows up in many of the quality luxury car advertising of the period. Not mentioned was the rapidly changing industry-wide styling which would quickly render a ten-year-old car obsolete looking. The gentleman must have loved this Rolls-Royce to bypass the custom Pierce-Arrow purchase in preference to updating the Rolls-Royce. They did a nice job of updating the styling, though removing the lower beltline plus adding a wider one above the door handles would have been details that would have help a more modern look. A 5-degree rake to the A-pillar-windshield was another. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28StutzCabriolet Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Can someone explain to me the reference in the production list for this car? I looked it up in 'Rolls Royce in America' and it is not listed as a Tilbury (my favorite closed body style). It has what I take to be a 1925 Sudbury sedan. That's a 3-window sedan. "basically a Tilbury with three windows" according to Rolls Royce In America. I am with Wayne. I like the original car better than the modernized car. However I would still own this car and love it to death. The price makes no sense to me personally. There are so many great cars coming onto the market these days. Brian HCCA Stutz Club Marmon Club Lincoln Owners Club WOKR Franklin Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmac Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) The description of the work done on this 11 year old car is stunning. One would easily have $500,000-900,000 invested in making the car "correct" but in my opinion you would be left with a rather unattractive car in the end. I can't help wondering if we would be having the same conversation if the car was priced in the $35000-40,000 range....or $1500-3000. I suspect so as there is almost no way to approach this project as anything other than a labor of love. Given the car free you'd still be upside down. Edited June 1, 2023 by ericmac Typo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted June 1, 2023 Author Share Posted June 1, 2023 I have come to the conclusion that upside down is the way of the world with all collectible cars now. 60 years of collectibles reliable appreciating is over. This car needs mechanics and to not be touched cosmetically other than to be cleaned. Reversing the Brewster updates would be a crime. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 2 minutes ago, alsancle said: Reversing the Brewster updates would be a crime. As much as I do prefer the car in its original form? I do also agree with that statement. The car in its updated form is a major part of not only this car's history? It is part of automotive history in general. There is an "invisible line in the sand" whereupon on one side an original car should be preserved, to be seen as an original survivor. On the other side of the line, most cars should be restored so they can be seen as they were before time and hard use took their toll. Some number should be kept to show what a hundred years can do to a fine piece of elegant machinery. Sadly, the hobby has never gotten this right. For a few decades, most hobbyists insisted that one should restore the best original car they could get! I personally saw about a hundred great original survivors, Very nice original paint and many with beautiful original interiors, completely disassembled and fully "restored" with all traces of the "original" replaced. The result of that is that today, very few really "original" cars are left for anyone to admire. I heard all the arguments about why one should restore the "best they could get". But I never believed them. Every time I saw one being ruined by being "restored", I felt saddened. Today, on the other hand, some people try to find the worst car they think they get patch up. They spend a few thousands of dollars rebuilding the mechanicals and replacing consumables like tires. They spend hundreds of hours painstakingly preserving the structure and rot, and make the car drivable to enjoy it and show it to other people. Don't get me wrong. What they do is not wrong. They perform a service to the hobby and preservation in the sense that they "preserve it how a hundred years made it". And that does have value. But it is NOT a car preserved as original. Sadly, today, too few real survivor original cars are left. But that is my silly opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prewarnut Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 So someone may say I can't do this, but if I use calipers to measure the rear left side door or window it is longer than the front (possibly by 1-2 inches in real life). What is interesting is this does not seem to be the case on the right side from Mr. Kumar's ad or on the left side of the original photo. I know, it could be an illusion somehow, but how? Would this mean that this is more than just a chopped top or perhaps an entirely new body in era? Anyone going to Astoria? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 (edited) I bet that's the case. Over the years I have read and even seen some examples of less than petfect work done by the great coachbuilders. Just like aspects of a fine custom home or fit on expensive clothes. Back in the day these cars were products, expensive products but not collectibles. It is still awesome. Edited June 3, 2023 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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