JohnD1956 Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 I am having some VR issues on the 56 the last two days. I have started to read the manual but to be perfectly honest, it is confusing to me, and I hope someone can help with the following scenario. The generator and VR have been on this car for several thousand miles. I have not been having any issues with it. I do use a negative terminal cut off switch on the battery and my connection scenario has employed polarizing the generator at the VR every time I re-connect the battery. I flash it between the Battery and Armature terminals at the VR. Yesterday I did this and when I started the car the ammeter showed it wasn't charging. I did stop it, disconnect and re connect the battery and polarized it again but the system still wasn't charging when I started the car. I put my test voltmeter on the battery terminals and had only 8 volts. So, feeling a bit desperate, I tapped on the cover of the VR. Immediately the system jumped to 12 volts and a few more taps it was up to 14.2 volts. additional tapping did not change that. After running for a few minutes I shut the car off while I did another job. I came back to the car about 2 hours later and was back at square 1. So I opened the cover of the VR to examine it and it looked very clean inside, but it is the VR that was on the car when I got it in 1975 so it may be the original one. ( i did have another one on the car for about ten years but a few years ago I went back to this one after checking the points adjustments) . I ran a nail file between all the points on the regulator, cutout relay and the relay. And it seemed to be working but in a 6 mile test drive it stopped working again. I redid the file on the points, and I cleaned and polished the connections, and it was working as expected on two separate test drives. Today I used it for a 260 mile drive. On the way this morning, it functioned with no problem. But on the way home, within a few miles of departure it stopped. A whack on the cover and I drove the major portion of my homeward trip problem free. When I got into a traffic jam where the going was slow, it stopped. The whack on the VR started it again but it happend 4 more times before I got home. I even stopped for fuel and it didn't work when I went to leave the pump, but then it did work when I got oput of the store. My question is, what could cause the VR to work intermittentely like this? Is it possibly just an age related thing, or is there something else I should be looking for or testing to make a diagnosis? It does not seem to be the generator because when it worked it worked well. Charged the battery ( according to the ammeter ) within a minute or two when needed, like after starting the car. The battery is not that old and I have periodically charged it over the winter. The engine starter spins normally, so I don't think it is battery related. Is this just indicative of a VR failure? I hope someone has some experience and can help me. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 Be sure it's grounded to the generator through the yellow wire. Clean all other connections. If no joy replacements are available for a reasonable price. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 There isn't much to go wrong in there, and you've already cleaned the points. I might have a quick look at the generator brushes. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 Sounds like old-tank and Bloo have you covered. Let us know your findings. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 24, 2023 Author Share Posted April 24, 2023 Thankfully I have that 1960 Parts manual on hand. Turns out there was two Voltage Regulators for the 56. The cutoff for cars made where mine was is very close to my car. I am not sure what the differences would be between these two but since I need the first style according to the book I was able to be a bit more specific in my search, and found an appropriate one. Should be here by next Friday. Sure miss the old days where you just went to a local parts store. But it is what it is and at least I was able to find one relatively easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 John, did you take a look at the generator brushes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 You could mount a GM solenoid on a bracket over the voltage regulator and wire it to a switch under the dash. Then you could energize the solenoid to whack the cover while driving and not have to stop. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 24, 2023 Author Share Posted April 24, 2023 2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: You could mount a GM solenoid on a bracket over the voltage regulator and wire it to a switch under the dash. Then you could energize the solenoid to whack the cover while driving and not have to stop. Thats a possible solution! Thanks Bernie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 24, 2023 Author Share Posted April 24, 2023 6 hours ago, EmTee said: John, did you take a look at the generator brushes? Em tee i just took a look but that is probably worthless. So here are three pictures. I think the comutator and brushes look ok. But I would appreciate any corrections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 I can't really tell from the pics what is going on. As long as there is still spring tension against the brushes, and the connection wires are not bottoming out against the brush holders you should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 24, 2023 Author Share Posted April 24, 2023 41 minutes ago, Bloo said: I can't really tell from the pics what is going on. As long as there is still spring tension against the brushes, and the connection wires are not bottoming out against the brush holders you should be fine. Thanks Bloo. I am glad you took a look and commented. I didn't know what to really look for here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 Hey John, Willie mentioned to make sure the ground is good between the generator and the voltage regulator. In your generator picture, it looked like the ground wire connector is missing insulation and has exposed copper. My new VR I got back in the day came with a ground wire to the fender, might be good to do this as well since the body is isolated with rubber grommets to keep it from shaking apart. Not ideal, but if problem persists you could always remove the cover before going for a drive. Just make sure your test equipment is plastic before you hit it. It's been a while since I adjusted mine, but it's all based on spring pressure and magnetism. You might have something stuck holding it open, or the coil windings might not have the oomph to pull it away from the contacts. Hopefully your new one solves the problem! 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 59 minutes ago, Beemon said: In your generator picture, it looked like the ground wire connector is missing insulation and has exposed copper. Hi Ben. Thanks for that observation. I will take another look at that wire tomorrow but I doubt it is a problem. Last I looked the connector was firmly attached and the bare part is not touching anything. Doesn't mean that it still is like that though. I am pretty sure this is just a weak VR unit. it is 67 years old. Can't even imagine how many times those points have opened and closed in all that time. Not sure I would want to run the car with the cover off of the VR unit though. Seems like that is just guaranteeing dirt and performance issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 Good to see you are still with us, Ben Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 I would run a couple of ground wires back to the battery. Maybe to a ring terminal on the battery post bolt and see if the intermittence goes away. To get a little deeper you could pull the brush end cover off the generator to check that the brushes are moving freely in their holders. If you have a high point in the commutator or a high mica insulator the brush can rise and then stick. I have seen that with cars that have been stored a long time but if your car is like my '60 Buick the generator has not been disassembled in a couple of decades, might be a little crusty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 15 hours ago, Beemon said: Hopefully your new one solves the problem! I was wondering about you a while back. You must be at least an EIT by now. Don't forget what makes engineers difficult the deal with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said: To get a little deeper you could pull the brush end cover off the generator to check that the brushes are moving freely in their holders. If you have a high point in the commutator or a high mica insulator the brush can rise and then stick. While that is possible, and an additional ground couldn't hurt, the cure is to whack the VR. Nothing else. So it seems to me that the rest of that is all an exercise in futility. I prefer to leave well enough alone when it appears to be working as designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 I wanted to add my comment to the document so the thought would be captured here for posterity. And mine left as it has been for two decades as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 27, 2023 Author Share Posted April 27, 2023 The new VR seems to have cleared the situation up. As for the old one, it appears one resistor is well cooked, which I assume is the root cause of the problem. But not sure why only one looks like that and not both. At any rate the ammeter indicates the whole system is more stable, the VR itself is cooler after a 10 mile drive, and none of the wires directly attached are anything greater than luke warm temp. I think I will call it done. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted April 27, 2023 Share Posted April 27, 2023 Great job John, now no worries when you drive your car. Thanks for all the updates and photos Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted April 28, 2023 Share Posted April 28, 2023 All ready for Rhinebeck! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 1 hour ago, EmTee said: All ready for Rhinebeck! Are you going to drive over? If so, and taking Goldie, you can ask to park with the Buick Club, But that does put you out of the running for any awards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 1 hour ago, EmTee said: All ready for Rhinebeck! BTW, in case you don't know, the show field is for modifieds and hot rods on Saturday. Sunday it is collector and classics. And our Chapter has the space on the show field on Sunday only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted April 28, 2023 Share Posted April 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said: Are you going to drive over? I'm on the fence... I'd like to go, but which day? Seems like it would be Sunday, right? I could bring Goldie or maybe the '38? I had the Century out for a short drive this evening and it seems to be running pretty well... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 1 minute ago, EmTee said: I'm on the fence... I'd like to go, but which day? Seems like it would be Sunday, right? I could bring Goldie or maybe the '38? I had the Century out for a short drive this evening and it seems to be running pretty well... Both would do well in the trophy category. And that would only be on Sunday the 7th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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