New Rule Change for Judging Sheet Feedback

[Ed Nieves]

I just received The Judge newsletter and according to Stan Kulikowski, VP of Judging, the judging guidelines this year was changed and indicates that ANY owner can request their judging sheet after an event. The previous guidelines only allowed those owners that did not receive the award they where competing for to be eligible to receive a copy of their judging sheet as feedback. 

 

I believe this was a much needed change and that will help the owners and makes the AACA better. 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Ed Nieves (see edit history)

[CChinn]

Full transparency is always a good thing! Kudos to AACA for taking this step

Edited March 23, 2023 by CChinn (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

I admit that I have never really been part of an AACA judged event. However I've had cars judged and acted as a judge on a fair number of concourse events. Frankly I was surprised to see that receiving a copy of the judging sheet had not been a part of the process.

[1937hd45]

Good luck, that would only work if the same team of judges looked at the vehicle in the next event. 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Bob, I disagree.  While our system is made up of almost 1,000 judges we spend a lot of time on consistency and yes training.  It is far from perfect but with cars from the 1800's to the 1990's it is a very difficult task.  So, theoretically, it should be close and usually is.  Most important we tell the owner on the day of the show if there is any major deduction taken off.

 

The change is a change that has happened several times over the years as our VP of Judging who single handily has to answer every letter has had different viewpoints on how to handle hundreds of requests.

 

Bill, I judge at quite a few concours and have never known a single one to give out results.  In fact, many (most in yeas past until this newish ICJAG judging was introduced) concours simply judge using French Rules which eliminates a score sheet.  

 

It is also not about transparency.  The reason most people ask for their sheet is to make their car better.  AACA handles this by highlighting areas that points were deducted.  The owner should have enough knowledge about their car to go from there and fix things.  If he/she disagrees there are remedies at hand.  Also, as I said we tell the owner immediately if their are any major deductions.

 

AACA also does not give out scores and this causes a problem when someone writes and asks for their scoresheet yet the deductions are minimal or not existent.

 

Again, the system is not perfect but EVERY year we have had changes in our guidlines, or schools, or classes or judging sheets.  It is always under review by a committee and a board to make it the best we can make it.

[Mark Shaw]

2 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Good luck, that would only work if the same team of judges looked at the vehicle in the next event. 

Are you suggesting that year to year judging may be inconsistent?  

Well, slap my face and call me silly!

 

[Ed Nieves]

15 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Bob, I disagree.  While our system is made up of almost 1,000 judges we spend a lot of time on consistency and yes training.  It is far from perfect but with cars from the 1800's to the 1990's it is a very difficult task.  So, theoretically, it should be close and usually is.  Most important we tell the owner on the day of the show if there is any major deduction taken off.

 

The change is a change that has happened several times over the years as our VP of Judging who single handily has to answer every letter has had different viewpoints on how to handle hundreds of requests.

 

Bill, I judge at quite a few concours and have never known a single one to give out results.  In fact, many (most in yeas past until this newish ICJAG judging was introduced) concours simply judge using French Rules which eliminates a score sheet.  

 

It is also not about transparency.  The reason most people ask for their sheet is to make their car better.  AACA handles this by highlighting areas that points were deducted.  The owner should have enough knowledge about their car to go from there and fix things.  If he/she disagrees there are remedies at hand.  Also, as I said we tell the owner immediately if their are any major deductions.

 

AACA also does not give out scores and this causes a problem when someone writes and asks for their scoresheet yet the deductions are minimal or not existent.

 

Again, the system is not perfect but EVERY year we have had changes in our guidlines, or schools, or classes or judging sheets.  It is always under review by a committee and a board to make it the best we can make it.

Totally agree with Steve. It does not matter who judges your car, the deductions/score would be relatively consistent. I'm a NCRS master judge and there we go over the judging sheet with the owner and explain all deductions. If fact, any deduction must be documented and explained on the sheet. The judging sheet is subsequently mailed to the owner with all documented deductions and scores. I never had an issue with an owner that had their car judged again. 

[1937hd45]

47 minutes ago, Mark Shaw said:

Are you suggesting that year to year judging may be inconsistent?  

Well, slap my face and call me silly!

 

Team A and Team B with the same members will judge a car differently. If either team judges the same car the next year, they should remember what they found fault with the year before. If corrected they will move on to find flaws they missed the year before. Bob 

Edited March 23, 2023 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Ed Nieves]

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Team A and Team B with the same members will judge a car differently. If either team judges the same car the next year, they should remember what they found fault with the year before. If corrected they will move on to find flaws they missed the year before. Bob 

The idea is to  correct flaws. The owner should always know their car better than any judge.  The judging process findings should not come as a surprise if the owner has done their homework. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Ed Nieves (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

13 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Team A and Team B with the same members will judge a car differently. If either team judges the same car the next year, they should remember what they found fault with the year before. If corrected they will move on to find flaws they missed the year before. Bob 

Your hypothesis would be correct if this was all done in a vacuum.  The fact is with 5 team members team A & B should NOT judge a car differently.  That is not a given although it COULD happen.  The data does not suggest that there is a disparity of any significance when, for instance, a team judges the car for its First Junior and then for a Senior. Bob, I believe it is many years since you judged and those almost 20 years a LOT has changed.  Our judging "manual" is now over 100 pages, we now have multiple schools depending on the members experience/award credits, team captain's school and many classes for Continuous Judges Education.  All this is designed to make our system fair and equitable.  For the most part we succeed pretty well but hopefully we will continue to improve each year.

 

Ed, NCRS is an entirely different animal.  AACA could never spend the time judging that they and other single mark clubs do.  We not only do not have enough time but do not have the expertise to dig as deep as NSRS into every car from a 1898 Duryea to a 1998 Chevy. Nor do we have the time to spend going over the judging sheet in depth with the owner.  Members do not see what goes on behind the scenes in judges administration trying to get everything ready for the awards a few hours later.  

 

[1937hd45]

Steve, The AACA Judging system works fine, the new rule of showing the owner the judging sheet just seams like asking for problems. I had fun when I was active. Bob 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Sorry Bob, I misunderstood your concern.  The rule, as I said is not new, it just changes based upon who is the VP of Judging and what they are willing to do.  We only send them back the judging sheet with highlight areas that the owner should look at, we do not give them the actual points.  It can cause problems when A.  The owner disagrees B. The owner cannot determine what is wrong c. The owner wants to debate. So far, it has been manageable and most of the years I have been here we have given the sheets to anyone who requests them.  I did not know you were on National Awards before...had to look you up!  That is still a fun assignment.

[Littlestown Mike]

After dealing with details for restoring of a '64 Falcon Sprint Convertible, and seeing the different options available across that limited scope, I marvel that anyone can judge across 100 years of automotive history.  My hat is off to all who learn to be Judges; You have my profound respect.

[Ed Nieves]

On 3/24/2023 at 8:40 AM, Steve Moskowitz said:

Your hypothesis would be correct if this was all done in a vacuum.  The fact is with 5 team members team A & B should NOT judge a car differently.  That is not a given although it COULD happen.  The data does not suggest that there is a disparity of any significance when, for instance, a team judges the car for its First Junior and then for a Senior. Bob, I believe it is many years since you judged and those almost 20 years a LOT has changed.  Our judging "manual" is now over 100 pages, we now have multiple schools depending on the members experience/award credits, team captain's school and many classes for Continuous Judges Education.  All this is designed to make our system fair and equitable.  For the most part we succeed pretty well but hopefully we will continue to improve each year.

 

Ed, NCRS is an entirely different animal.  AACA could never spend the time judging that they and other single mark clubs do.  We not only do not have enough time but do not have the expertise to dig as deep as NSRS into every car from a 1898 Duryea to a 1998 Chevy. Nor do we have the time to spend going over the judging sheet in depth with the owner.  Members do not see what goes on behind the scenes in judges administration trying to get everything ready for the awards a few hours later.  

 

Agreed, I was just trying to make a point about sharing feedback with members in general. I totally realize the difference with the two animals. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

Bill, I judge at quite a few concours and have never known a single one to give out results.  In fact, many (most in yeas past until this newish ICJAG judging was introduced) concours simply judge using French Rules which eliminates a score sheet. 

 

Steve your experience does not comport with mine. I have no reason to refute what you say. However, I have always been able to get my judging sheet upon request. Except when "French Judging" has been the standard. I know that early on I was told that it was not the usual procedure, but I was able to get the results nonetheless. Admittedly at events at which I have been a judge I have never been in a position where I was responsible for returning judging information to the owners. I just presumed that it would be made available upon request.

 

Looking back at it my own experience I didn't think that I was afforded any special favors. But that was more then 30 years ago. As I reflect back on the car's quick assentation. I wonder if the car was on someone's fast track. Did some person or group want the car to succeed? Were some strings being pulled? Heaven only knows that once the process began I was being dragged along with the car. For me this thread has served to create more unanswered questions, then answer any. I'm old so don't shoot the messenger! 

 

Ed makes a point that an owner should know his car better then any judge, to which I agree. However that is not always the case. An owner needs to know what things he needs to improve upon to take his car to the next level. Judging is not a continuous process. I think that it needs to be a cooperative effort between the owners and the judges, the result of which is the car's eventual improvement. I don't see how leaving an owner in the dark, without constructive criticism, serves that goal.   

Edited March 30, 2023 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[Ed Nieves]

Sent away for my 2022 Grand National judging sheet, but have not received it yet. I'm sure it will take some time due to many requests. 

[Ed Nieves]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:40 PM, Ed Nieves said:

Sent away for my 2022 Grand National judging sheet, but have not received it yet. I'm sure it will take some time due to many requests. 

Got my letter back from the VP of judging. The letter explains why no score sheet was included. 

 

Thank you, Stan.

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Ed Nieves (see edit history)

[Avanti Bill]

Concours judging is whimsical at best and has more to do with personalities and story line than other considerations.  The big restoration shops have an advantage because the events need these shops to bring fresh product year after year to their shows.  These are invitation events and are normally for a charity so you participate for the fun of it and the social scene.   Marque judging is the toughest and most discerning and is where you can really get your car dialed in for competition.  At these events I have always received my judging sheets with point deductions at the banquette or soon after.  This of course leads to some interesting debate between owners and the chief judge occasionally. 

 

Overall the AACA system works very well and helps people along with their cars.  It isn't perfect but if you think of the number of different make and models spanning 100 years I think they do a pretty good job.  It would be hard to find experts in every class.  As for giving the judging sheets I think the policy is correct to just show the area of deduction and not the specifics, the arguments would never end.  My only complaint is that I have seen many cars at Grand National events that should not be there, the judges were just too forgiving with senior awards.  Perhaps making the jump from First Jr. to Senior tougher would eliminate some substandard cars getting through.  I know this would be hard to do but maybe Senior cars should be judged by separate teams.  We all benefit from having high standards as the nice cars always hold their value the best.  

[61polara]

Avanti Bill if you are not currently an AACA judge we would welcome your participation.

[Avanti Bill]

1 hour ago, 61polara said:

Avanti Bill if you are not currently an AACA judge we would welcome your participation.

I have judged in a marque club and hate doing it, I'm too picky and really dislike the guilt trip I put myself on when I take points off a car.  If I stop showing cars I may consider judging AACA although I would be scared to death that I would end up judging cars that I know nothing about.

[61polara]

Avanti Bill please attend one of our Judging School given at each of our Nationals.  We are always looking for judges in specialty areas.  There is no charge and no commitment needed.

[Oldsmobile 83]

17 hours ago, 61polara said:

Avanti Bill please attend one of our Judging School given at each of our Nationals.  We are always looking for judges in specialty areas.  There is no charge and no commitment needed.

Avanti Bill, I completly agree with 61polara about attending one of the Judging Schools.  Beside attending the Judging School to see what is involved in the AACA judging system, it also helps to provide more information about showing your vehicle in an AACA meet.  I attended a couple of judging schools to see what I needed to do to best show my car before actually becoming a judge.  After that, I decided to participate in an Apprentice judging team and have found out that they are very informative and teach you more indepth about what happens on the field as a judge. 

You mention about being "scared to death" about judging cars that you know nothing about.  Another thing that is great about becoming a judge is that they offer CJE (Continuing Judges Education) that covers many specific categories that can allow you to learn additional specific details about certain aspects of being a judge such as (interiors, chasis, engine, or specific types of vehicles).  Another thing to help overcome being fearful is that all of the teams I have participated on have had very experienced judges and they have been able to answer all the questions I have asked when judging.  

My suggestion is to give it a try.....I am sure you will do well since you already have experience in judging at a marque club.  This would probably be easier than judging at a marque club event.

Tim

Edited April 30, 2023 by Oldsmobile 83 (see edit history)