alsfarms Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 I am curious and hope someone more informed than I can help me out. If a Dodge Motor is 802-000, that would be an early November car built in 1922. Would this Dodge be actually marketed as a 1923? The reason why I ask, I thought late 1922 Dodge touring cars did not have outside door handles but those Dodge Touring cars built for the 1923 model year would have outside door handles. Maybe this question is simply a "gray" area? What would the correct top saddles look like for a late 1922 and 1923 Dodge touring car. I am looking at a Dodge project and want to make sure how much of this project is a a result of different years of parts scrounging. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 The date of manufacture is by the chassis number. You are quite correct, many Dodge Brothers cars (and there is no way of telling) have been put together from parts collected from many different places, many different cars often of varying ages. I have an original axe that is 150 years old it has only had three new heads and six new handles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 The motor number is not the car serial number, it is just a motor number. Because I have seen numbers ranging from 30 to 50,000 differences between the engine number and car serial, the car would fall into the 1923 series made between Jan 1923 and March 1923. Going by the engine number is not going to help, you need the serial number stamped on the crossmember, right side top, front seat. Engines get changed all the time so might not even be a 1923 or original to the car. Does it not have a title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 This is from the Dodge Brothers Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Yes, it has a 1922 title but I don't trust titles either. I will see if I can get to the cross member and confirm that number. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 That will be the way to go, re check the number on the car. My 1920 has a 1921 engine and I have 2 others I could drop in, late 1917 or 1923. In the meantime, post some photos if you can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Around the time of the switchover from the low-cowl cars to the high-cowl ones in July of 1922, a lot of changes were phased in over various periods of time, so there was a lot of individual variation in the production, often depending on the body type. For example, according to many sources my car (no. 807012), built during the third week of November, 1922, is "supposed" to have a positive-ground electrical system, the horn switch on the inside of the driver's door and (I think, but not sure) no outside door handles, but instead it has a negative ground, the horn in the middle of the steering wheel and it does have outside door handles. There is reason to believe that the car was original and unmodified when I bought it. Your car takes a part no. 418 top saddle on both sides. See this thread: If you still need to see what a P/N 418 top saddle looks like, let me know and I'll take a picture of mine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 22touring, thanks for your response. I simply keep thinking that the automobile industry was "cut and dried" by 1922 suggesting that design improvements took place like clockwork.....it appears that thought of mine is certainly wrong! Please, I would like to see a picture of your 418 top saddles. I am still not sure if I am going to "bite" on the 1922 Dodge Bros. touring car project but will know more in a week or so. Here is another question. Was the typical "fatman" steering wheel an accessory or a factory option on these early Dodge Bros. automobiles? Also, I am guessing from your comment that Dodge Bros. products manufactured up to December 31 would be listed and marketed as a 1922 (in this case under discussion)? Al Edited September 30, 2022 by alsfarms clarity (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 The fatman steering wheel by the literature was standard in closed cars, an accessory in open cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 35 minutes ago, alsfarms said: I am guessing from your comment that Dodge Bros. products manufactured up to December 31 would be listed and marketed as a 1922 (in this case under discussion)? Al I probably shouldn't comment because I have only studied trucks, but I too have always had questions about this topic and hope to see more clarification of what others may or may not think is correct in the car community. According to the notation it's suggesting that old records have reverted to titling 1914-1923 vehicles according to the July1 to June30 rule while it is encouraged for historical accuracy to title vehicles under calendar year of production instead. This has always been a point of contention in the Dodge Brothers community from what I've gathered. Can someone clarify where the Dodge Brothers Club stands on this topic and also explain what the majority of 14-23 owners are currently doing? Sorry if it seems I'm sturring the pot as that's not my intention. If this isn't the place to discuss this let me know and I'll delete my post. Edited September 30, 2022 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Excellent point and question asked by 30Dodgepanel. I would like to know really how Dodge Bros. dated their offerings. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 David's observation is correct. Most people will describe their car as a Oct. '23 built '24 model, for example. Early cars go by year built as everyone wants their car recognized as early as possible. At least that is what I've seen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Year of car is a hotly debated subject on the Model T Ford Club of America forum. But without the serial number or photos, kinda crapshoot to offer any information with just an engine number. Unless going for points car, really doesn't matter what year it is titled as, as long as the title number match that serial number on the frame and when buying parts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Here is a question. I am not certain, can you see the top of the cross member, with the serial number on it, if the front floor board is removed? Or does the body need to be lifted? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Yes, it can be seen lifting the floorboard. Do you have the car? In one post you seem to indicate you have the title but in the first one, you are looking at a potential project. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 This is a potential project, mostly intact, runs but does not move. I think the clutch is locked up. I commented on the title as I consider it only a legal ownership document, as you suggest, but not the best for accuracy of information. I will be seeing this project in person in a week and then will most certainly have more questions. Now that I have spilled my thoughts on "titles", I can share one differing opinion. I was given the remains of an old late 1922 Dodge Bros. touring car that was the only automobile that my mothers father ever owned. He tore it up when he was done driving it and used the front half for years as a power plant. I was lucky enough to get the original title and a few years license documents and the original sales agreement. This title is one that I give a high degree of credibility to. My granddads car is now about 85% complete but still needs lots. Along the way of scrounging for parts I do have now a set of new respoked 24" Houk wire wheels, hubs and caps, which I plan to use. I have also ended up with bits and pierces of a 1923 Screenside and more bits and pieces of a 1923 leatherback coupe. All this stuff is more than I need as I really only probably will finish the touring car. But, I can't help but sniff around on the project car mentioned earlier. What are the hints for unsticking the clutch without breaking parts? Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Ok, here is some additional information on the "1922" Dodge Bros. touring car project that is the subject of this chat. I have spoken with the owner who shared the following from the current title. serial number 748124 the title calls for a 1922 model year the car does have outside door handles the car is certainly a later design with the high hood and crowned bottom windshield frame Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 It appears that the "project car" is a July 1922, certainly a 1922 model year. I now am suspect that it is a bit more of a put together car as it has outside door handles. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Could someone post a picture of a cross member showing where I should look for the serial number on these 1922-23 Dodge Bros. automobiles. I just spent an hour trying to find serial numbers on a couple of old Dodge Bros. frames.....no success! I think I am looking in the correct place but see nothing. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Right about where the passenger's feet would be. Letters are faint, maybe 3/8 inch. Hold a light at an angle, may have to wire brush first. The wires should make any DB look good. BTW, they came in light yellow. But could be ordered in black, white, red, or any other color according to the order form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) Top of crossmember just inside the door. To the left is the center of the car, to the right passenger door (USA cars). just behind it is the heel panel. Edited September 30, 2022 by Mark Gregush (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 So, what is this leatherback coupe? That sounds like Ferd talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 I had seen a Dodge Bros. With white wire wheels and that is what I went with. I don't plan on white wall tires so I thought white wheels and black tires with the red chassis and dark body will work. The serial number is in the top? Not on the front face? I worked with a wire brush and some fine sandpaper. I will give it another go. Will the serial numbers be found in the center of the cross member or towards the front or back? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Mark, Thanks for your picture. You weren't fooling! I had to look very close to see your numbers. Now I know exactly where to go us my search. Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Ok, I admit, I am not an expert on Dodge Bros. automobiles. I will attach a couple of pictures of the 1922-23 Leatherback coupe body. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Another view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 Actually, this body style is quite elegant for a Dodge Bros. offering. I don't think I have enough cold cranking amps to get through this particular project. Someone will however.... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 It MAY say CAR in front of the number, I forget when they quit that. The coupe looks like a business coupe. The missing roof may have been aluminum like my '24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted October 1, 2022 Author Share Posted October 1, 2022 (edited) I spent some time trying to locate the serial number on the remains of the screen side. Nothing was located where Greg showed me in his picture. I have been careful to not dig into the cross member only get rid of rust. So far no serial number. You could be right with the business coupe nomenclature but I have seen leather-leatherette on these also. I don't have any of the top understructure so I am not sure how the top is fitted to the body? Al Edited October 1, 2022 by alsfarms Clarity (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 alsfarms, The DB closed cars (sedan -coupe) were wood frame construction up to late '22. The '23 Coupe production went to Budd all steel EXCEPT '23 ONLY were mostly Budd steel body except the rear area above the belt line around from door to door including rear window. That was wood frame construction with that area covered in top material hence the "Leatherback" designation. 'All the same, huh" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 15, 2022 Author Share Posted November 15, 2022 Does anyone have factory pictures of the top structure indicative of this Dodge coupe? It could help with the rebuilding of the top. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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