1930 V16 Cadillac roadster

[Cadillac Fan]

Reproduction body, but this equates to about $175k.  

I would have figured $75-100k more. 

 

 

 

 

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/pa22/paris/lots/r0009-1930-cadillac-v-16-roadster-in-the-style-of-fleetwood/1196926

Edited February 24, 2022 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Wow, I'd still call that a bargain. Interesting that it has won all the awards--repro bodies aren't supposed to do that...

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Wow, I'd still call that a bargain. Interesting that it has won all the awards--repro bodies aren't supposed to do that...

 

Read the fine print......exhibited, not judged. I know the guy who built it.........a V-16 expert. Look close at the photos, it’s long in the tooth and clearly not a high point car. It brought less than I would have expected......but you can buy a real one for 1.5 or a real convertible coupe for 350.

[Cadillac Fan]

Yes, it is long in the tooth, but would make a great driver.   To me this is a lot of car for $175k. 
 

the Gilmore award, at the ccca experience, is chosen by the museum trustees and they may not be aware of the repro body.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Times are changing (or have changed) - you have to ask yourself "who is the audience/buyer for this" and you may also want to ask if this is a solid place to park your money. 

 

Sure, there are the people that:

1. dream of an X and then rebody to get it (the next buyer though often is not of the same mentality or they want a discount as it will "just never be right"),

2. there are those who want an open V-16 and do not want to pay the price,

3. and there are some ragged out sedans that will just never be cost effective to restore 

or ... 

but the market just seems to get smaller and smaller as time passes by.   

 

There is a Stutz listed that everyone is saying much the same about. 

[alsancle]

My guess is that it has many more needs than what is apparent from the pictures.    If it presents decently and runs well I would have expected 300k.

[edinmass]

 

It’s very easy to dump 50k in a car like that if it has issues. Bad valve? 20k, low oil pressure.....80k. It’s that kind of thing. 

[Cadillac Fan]

If RM sold a 25 year old restoration reproduction roadster for $175k, what will this go for?

 

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/enthusiast-auction-2022/1930-cadillac-series-452-v-16-roadster/

 

 

The dealer in AZ was asking $900k last year.  It was down to $750k early this year?   
 

Any guesses?  
 

mine: hammer at $460k

Edited April 4, 2022 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[rwchatham]

This v16 just went for 300k

[Cadillac Fan]

2 hours ago, rwchatham said:

This v16 just went for 300k

Interesting car.  Looks like a mix between 4335 straight sill but with a 4235 body (which should have the curved sills). 
 

Mecum sold a 4235 in similar colors earlier this year.   

[edinmass]

In my humble opinion, that was over the money when looking at recent past sales...........neat car.

[rwchatham]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

In my humble opinion, that was over the money when looking at recent past sales...........neat car.

Ed im sure you are correct , it was missing its cowl tag would that hurt its value or not really a big deal ? 

[edinmass]

4 minutes ago, rwchatham said:

Ed im sure you are correct , it was missing its cowl tag would that hurt its value or not really a big deal ? 

 

50/50 - Since you can order the data sheet, it's not quite as terrible.....that said no major collector would touch it. They are easy to find with no stories. 

[Cadillac Fan]

1 hour ago, rwchatham said:

Ed im sure you are correct , it was missing its cowl tag would that hurt its value or not really a big deal ? 

That is interesting as this car  (the combination of 42xx style convertible coupe body with 43xx sills) was, according to the Cadillac Database, not made.  (Yes, I know that is not definitive).  But it would give me pause.  
 

 

see discussion under 4235:

 

https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/Historical/Automobiles/V16
 

 

 

[edinmass]

Cadillac did a lot of strange things.......for many different reasons. Since it’s a 16 every bit of information is available if you dig hard enough. One off and experimental or prototype Cadillacs actually have much less following than most people realize. When it comes to owning a Cadillac.........most of the guys want “what one would expect”..............the strange and special built units usually have awkward angles, things that just don’t look good to a trained eye, and overall are just disconcerting. While the “strange” cars are a bunch of fun to look at and research...........give me a plain production V-16 Roadster.........they are good enough for me.

[Cadillac Fan]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Cadillac did a lot of strange things.......for many different reasons. Since it’s a 16 every bit of information is available if you dig hard enough. One off and experimental or prototype Cadillacs actually have much less following than most people realize. When it comes to owning a Cadillac.........most of the guys want “what one would expect”..............the strange and special built units usually have awkward angles, things that just don’t look good to a trained eye, and overall are just disconcerting. While the “strange” cars are a bunch of fun to look at and research...........give me a plain production V-16 Roadster.........they are good enough for me.

I agree.  Even if done at the factory and the only 42xx/43xx convertible coupe I don’t think a premium would be paid.
 

I would choose a “plain” production sport phaeton if ordering new. 

 

The history of what actually happened is interesting, even if no additional value can be derived from it. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[rwchatham]

44 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

That is interesting as this car  (the combination of 42xx style convertible coupe body with 43xx sills) was, according to the Cadillac Database, not made.  (Yes, I know that is not definitive).  But it would give me pause.  
 

 

see discussion under 4235:

 

https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/Historical/Automobiles/V16
 

 

 

 Rhe body number  shows it being made just never seen ,  i do have a picture of the car when it was built sitting on the fisher body company roof  ill post it later  

[alsancle]

I like it!  Would love to know more.  A roadster and the phaeton are prettier -agreed. But they are also very common.

 

Being able to acquire the build sheet is awesome. But I know that you guys realize the build sheet isn’t the end all be all to the cars provanance,

[rwchatham]

Here is a factory photo showing the v16 on the G building roof .

 

[edinmass]

 "A roadster and the phaeton are prettier -agreed. But they are also very common."

 

AJ- There are less than 10 roadsters without a story............

        There are 17 phaetons without a story...............

 

Total production of both styles were about 110 of each..........

 

I would not call them common! That said, there is a boatload of fake and body swaps around...........

 

They only seem common since the price on them exploded and they came back to the show circuit.........

Edited April 6, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Cadillac Fan]

50 minutes ago, rwchatham said:

Here is a factory photo showing the v16 on the G building roof .

 

Great photo and great car.  I hope it gets restored.  

[John_Mereness]

On 4/3/2022 at 8:00 PM, rwchatham said:

This v16 just went for 300k

This should sell for 300K - it is what you really want in a V-16 (may not be "restored", but in condition it is fabulous).

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

This should sell for 300K - it is what you really want in a V-16 (may not be "restored", but in condition it is fabulous).

 

 

I won't argue that it isn't a nice car, and I would keep it in the same cosmetic condition it is in, but when I see a real Conv coupe that is a true 100 point car sell for 325K, makes me want the restored car. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

 "A roadster and the phaeton are prettier -agreed. But they are also very common."

 

AJ- There are less than 10 roadsters without a story............

        There are 17 phaetons without a story...............

 

Total production of both styles were about 110 of each..........

 

I would not call them common! That said, there is a boatload of fake and body swaps around...........

 

They only seem common since the price on them exploded and they came back to the show circuit.........

Ed,

 

How many people, besides a very few, distinguish between the “good“ cars and the stories cars? If you walk up to one in the show there’s no way to tell. I’m simply pointing out that you just don’t see a convertible coupes as much.

[Cadillac Fan]

On 4/3/2022 at 6:10 PM, Cadillac Fan said:

If RM sold a 25 year old restoration reproduction roadster for $175k, what will this go for?

 

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/enthusiast-auction-2022/1930-cadillac-series-452-v-16-roadster/

 

 

The dealer in AZ was asking $900k last year.  It was down to $750k early this year?   
 

Any guesses?  
 

mine: hammer at $460k

Worldwide auctioneers just sold this reproduction v16 roadster for a hammer price of $685k. 

[edinmass]

People are nuts……too much money chasing too few cars. You can buy a real one for not too much more……..the reason it was in that venue is the big houses won’t take rebodied cars unless they are part of a entire collection liquidation. You could have a real 100 point convertible coupe for less……..as well as a bunch of other interesting body styles. Wait till the market cools down a bit, and see what it will bring. There are three fake cars for every real  ones in the market place. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[jcrow]

Just for the record. The convertible coupe being discussed above was a special order made by Fisher for Fisher. It was

the only one ever made. The other 16 Fisher v -16 convertible coupes  in 1930 had upright windshields and many other differences.

The build sheet confirms that the car has its original engine, tranny, generator and starter and BODY. Of course it does not

have the sill as on the Fleetwood (some styles) body because it is not a Fleetwood. By the way, the Fleetwood  convertible

coupe has rear hinged doors, unlike this car. The "special" order  LX number appears on the inside of the door mouldings

and elsewhere as would be expected and the Job number (versus Fleetwood Style) is appropriately stamped on the original floorboards,

right side. The car was ordered to be returned to Fisher (on the build sheet) after Cadillac finished it, for more custom work, and after display was delivered to Fisher's then longest term employee. The photos show that the windshield is quite slopped, much like the 1932s,

which by the way Fisher also built, as Fleetwood was being moved. If anyone is interested in more accurate information send me a message.

The price may have been too or not, but it is a custom order, one of one, slimmed doors, slopped windshield, smaller body,

long wheelbase, running, open v-16.

 

Johnny

[edinmass]

I agree it’s a cool car. There are quite a few specials built for the Fisher Brothers, I have seen at least 6-8 of them, and owned a 31 V-12 years ago. 

[Cadillac Fan]

On 2/5/2022 at 7:00 PM, Cadillac Fan said:

Reproduction body, but this equates to about $175k.  

I would have figured $75-100k more. 

 

 

 

 

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/pa22/paris/lots/r0009-1930-cadillac-v-16-roadster-in-the-style-of-fleetwood/1196926

 

Think the broad arrow group, former RM ers, can get $500k for this car 6 months later?

 

 

https://www.broadarrowauctions.com/vehicles/016/1930-cadillac-v-16-roadster

 

 

Three roadsters are being sold in Monterey this year, one “real.”  
 

 

 

this is a very confusing paragraph:

 

 

The roadster offered here was meticulously restored with an original V-16 engine no. 702014. According to its build sheet, a copy of which is on file, this engine was originally mated to style no. 4361S club sedan body supplied to a buyer in Chicago. It was later owned by Wayne Merriman, a prolific early Cadillac V-16 collector and historian from Kansas. The present roadster body was built to the original style no. 4302 by the well-known craftsman Dick Kingston for Cadillac V-16 collector Walt Dietzel of Oklahoma. Inspection of the car today shows that per the build sheet the car retains its original engine, with correct motor and unit numbers, as well as the original transmission; the frame number is not discernible but is believed to be from another car.

 

 

the body is not original.  The frame is from “another car.”  The motor is from a sedan other than the car the frame is from.  Yet “the car retains its original engine.”   Which car?  

Edited July 14, 2022 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Cadillac Fan…….it’s as plain as the nose on your face. Read that as typical auction verbiage. Clear and pure like a bucket of hot tar.

[Cadillac Fan]

20 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Cadillac Fan…….it’s as plain as the nose on your face. Read that as typical auction verbiage. Clear and pure like a bucket of hot tar.

Yes, but “the car retains its original engine” seems to be an intentional misrepresentation.  Usually they dance on the line.  This seems like they stepped over the line. 

 

 

[edinmass]

The last few years every line in America has been erased. Obviously, the car is a “birthing person”!