Need advice on stripping down chassis

[nat]

1 hour ago, 22touring said:

I guess I've got to press the impeller off it? 

     The hard part might be getting the pin out of and back into the impeller.  I think that originally the impeller was placed on the shaft then drilled, pinned and sold as a unit because the pin hole placement wasn't exact/interchangable. Myers or a parts book could say if that's right or wrong.

     The shaft has to come out of the impeller and the drive gear.  It might be easier to handle if you cut the old shaft between the gear housing and pump so you can disassemble one at a time.  Measure and note the distance from the front side of the gear to the pulley pin hole and match that whe you put the gear on the new shaft.  Usually shims have to be used between the block and water pump to line the pump up with the gear housing.

     You don't have to do anything to the starter chain or cam timing.  You will have to reset the ignition timing.

     You will probably find that the shaft is pitted and worn in other places that will make you glad you replaced it.  If it was okay except for the pulley connection and you don't mind a non OEM repair, your machine shop could replace the bored to size pulley hub with one that will receive a Taper Lock or QD bushing, both of which will accomodate some variations in shaft size.

    The hubs are known as "weld on" but I would choose to hold it on with fasteners.

 

https://redboarchain.com/products/ja-a-qd-weld-on-hub?variant=39445606170693&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw6IiiBhAOEiwALNqnceEcFPvfbNKmDdkQlfvrEmrAqAQElCsZcLKZCZB5csZRkQ89RNGU9xoCBPQQAvD_BwE

 

 

https://mro-pt.com/bushings/qd-bushings/120334-dodge-ja-x-5-8-kw-bushing/?sku=120334&gclid=CjwKCAjw6IiiBhAOEiwALNqncZ3Zrjijgxd8zHv9xyJHlJnmqaCaanmQDhwboaZqL6I89S8BYIzbzRoC974QAvD_BwE

[Minibago]

This was posted in 2018.

 

[nat]

     If it's equipped with a distributor, the water pump drive gear can mesh any which way and the timing is set by turning the distributor cam and rotor as described in the instruction manul.

[22touring]

So what TonyAus wrote applies only to magneto-equipped engines??

 

[Minibago]

1 minute ago, 22touring said:

So what TonyAus wrote applies only to magneto-equipped engines??

 

No what Tony Aus wrote is that the water pump shaft needs the keyways located correctly in order to have correct valve timing.

Trying to set the ignition timing to standard with the valve timing incorrect does not make for a happy engine.

[22touring]

Thank you very much for this information, TonyAus and Minibago. I don't understand this completely, and I certainly am glad that you told me I need to understand it for my car to run correctly. I'll compare my old shaft to the new one and talk to my machinist if necessary.  However, I emailed Tom Myers, who has been a real "stand-up" kind of guy in all of our transactions, and he seemed to indicate that all I need to do is move the rotor.  So I hope you can see why I am having a hard time understanding this.  What would be the practical effect of having your valve timing out-of-whack by using a reproduction water pump shaft, and just re-pointing the rotor? Do you think the engine would lose a lot of power?

[Minibago]

Correction my mistake, it is ignition timing and yes, most Australian cars up to 1925 were fitted with magnetos

[22touring]

Great!

 

Sorry if I introduced any red herrings by failing to note that the DB parts sellers call this a "1916-26" water pump shaft, 1916 being presumably when DB switched from magneto to distributor ignition(?)

Edited April 27, 2023 by 22touring
addition (see edit history)

[Minibago]

Yes, both Tom and Cindy are most helpful and a pleasure to do business with.

As mentioned before the distributor rotor can be adjusted to suit the variation and I guess if you know what you are doing (but it is not recommended) you can move the gears in the magneto however as Tony pointed out you are limited to one tooth at a time and that only gets you close not exactly correct.
The misalignment of the keyway advances the ignition timing too far on full retard and waaaay to far on advance.

This causes rough running and overheating with a possibility of a kickback on starting breaking the starter chain.

 

[Minibago]

If you have a distributor then simply remove the rotor, loosen the screw on the shaft, replace the rotor, turn it to line up and tighten the shaft screw.

[nat]

4 hours ago, 22touring said:

So what TonyAus wrote applies only to magneto-equipped engines??

    Yes, that only applies to magneto.  Is yours magneto or distributor?

    My mechanic's instruction book doesn't even mention magnetos.  It's probably in Dykes Encyclopedia but the information in that is placed somewhat helter skelter.

    I

[nat]

     Easier than fussing with keyway orientation on a magneto system would be to drill another pin hole for the flex drive flange when the mag and engine were in sync.

[22touring]

Brothers, can you tell me where what I have labeled as a "gas tank bracket" is supposed to be located on my late '22 tourer?  I should have taken a picture of this before disassembling it; the car has been apart for at least 2 years; and I have totally forgotten where this part belongs!  What is it supposed to clamp to?  I would appreciate it if somebody would kindly help me out.  Thanks very much.

 

 

 

[22touring]

I finally realized that I had mislabeled these brackets. They really support my "Buckeye" aftermarket rear bumper where it attaches to the back of the 3/4-eliptical springs on each side. The curved side of the bracket rests on the spring and the little arm rests on the outside of the spring's pin bushing so the bumper won't droop down.  Buckeye bumpers were made by the Central Brass and Fixture Co. of Springfield, Ohio.

 

Buckeye bumpers for the DB were pretty plain, but their bumpers for other makes were fancier:

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by 22touring (see edit history)

[22touring]

When removing the water pump shaft from a single-unit 4-cylinder motor, I believe you are supposed to remove the front cover of the drive gear housing at the front of the engine; loosen up all the gland nuts on the shaft; remove the distributor and coil unit; remove the bolts holding the water pump to the engine block; and then pull the water pump and shaft backwards until the shaft comes out of its drive gear. You leave the drive gear in place on its chain inside its housing and then insert the new shaft into it in the same position the old one was, without disturbing the orientation of the drive gear.

 

I.e.,you pull the shaft out backward, not forward, and you leave the drive gear in place.

 

Does that sound correct, Brethren?

Edited June 27, 2023 by 22touring
correction (see edit history)

[Minibago]

No, this does not sound right.

The starter chain is connected to the crankshaft not the water pump.

No requirement to remove the front cover.

The distributor and coil unit remain in position.

Disconnect the flexible drive connecting the distributor to the water pump.

Remove the water pump housing bolts and water pump drive wheel housing bolts and the unit comes off in one piece.

 

Then dismantle.

[22touring]

Thanks, Minibago!

[22touring]

I'm going to pack the water pump shaft and gland nuts on my single-unit motor the old-fashioned way because I don't have my act together enough to use modern seals. Can anybody point me to a discussion about how you go about installing the packing correctly?  I haven't a clue about what kind of packing material to use, or how it is done!  I'm sure this must have been discussed in the past on this forum, but I searched and couldn't find anything. Thanks again.

Edited June 27, 2023 by 22touring
correction (see edit history)

[JayG]

Watch toward the end of this video and it shows how to pack the pump.  The material is a graphite rope that Myers or Romar or any Model A supplier has.  Doing it on the car is a little more challenging due to the lack of room but it can be done without removing the pump.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by JayG (see edit history)

[22touring]

I made a typo, editing mistake or brain flatulence earlier when I said that I have the 2-unit engine.  I have the original single-unit engine with the Northeast Electric starter-generator and the N.E. Electric distributor, from November of 1922.

 

Whoever is doing the machine work on the water pump shafts sold by Tom and Cindy Myers for the distributor cars seems to be doing a good job.  Its diameter was within a tenth of a thousandth along its entire length.  My old water pump impeller, the drive gear and the bushings all fit nicely, but the front pulley is going to be a bit of a tight fit. I'm going to have to beat it onto the front end of the shaft with a plastic hammer, and would like to do it on the bench so I can back up the shaft as I pound it on.

 

I'm not seeing any reason why I can't install the entire unit, including the front pulley, onto the engine block all at once.  N'est-ce pas?

 

 

[nat]

     Here's some food for thought when it comes to packing, especiall if you are thinking of using round packing.

http://anti-keystone.com/anti-keystone/history/

[Minibago]

Yes, it is fitted as a complete unit.

[22touring]

Did the water pump and gear cover come from the factory painted DB green, like yours are, Minibago, or black?  Mine were black when I bought my car. I would like to paint them the correct color before I re-install them.

 

Later edit: the rebuilt engine pictured on the Romar website shows the gear cover painted green like the engine, and the water pump black, so that's what I'm going to do.

Edited June 8, 2023 by 22touring
addition (see edit history)

[nat]

     The water pump impeller I use and that from my parts car both have the pin hole drilled too arbitrarily to be interchangeable from one shaft to another.

     Does the parts book list the impeller with shaft as a single part or were they sold separately?

     That looks like the original green.

 

[Minibago]

As I understand the cover should be the DB Khaki green, the pump should be black. 

[22touring]

Yes, Nat, even a nail which is only 9/64" in diameter only wants to go through the impeller and into the shaft less than 1/4", whereas the pin is 3/16" in diameter. I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do about this.

[nat]

     For some reason that minor detail was left out of the how to video.  

     The key drives the impeller.  The pin keeps if from moving on the shaft.  

     With a vise in a drill press or milling machine, the hole in the impeller could be oriented by placing a 3/16" drill in the chuck and through the impeller then grip the impeller with the vise.  Now the drill will follow the existing hole.

     Breaking a drill bit and egging the impeller hole out are both likely if you try to drill the shaft.

     The impeller hole could be drilled with a #7 or 13/64" drill, tapped to 1/4"-20 for a dog or cone point set screw to index with the existing shaft hole.  Probably the set screw will remain tight on it's own but the threads could be Loctited or staked to help keep it in.

https://www.mcmaster.com/92845A535/

 

https://www.mcmaster.com/92785a435/

Edited June 9, 2023 by nat
Nothing else to do. (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

I think the part you left out i having the right amount of end play. And LOTS of impellers have been installed backwards which will cause overheating. I know of a high end restored car that overheated all the time. After 20 or so years the car was sold and it was discovered the impeller was backwards.

[22touring]

Doug, thanks a lot for the info.  Pardon me for being clueless, but can you please tell me how much end play should the shaft have, and how do you adjust it?

 

This seems to be covered in neither the BOI nor the MIM.

 

Does anybody remember any good threads on the subject in this forum?

 

[nearchoclatetown]

The end play is determined by where the hole is drilled for the pin that holds the impeller. That's why I sent mine to Romar to be rebuilt.

[nat]

     The pump will be most effective when the open side of the impeller is close to but does not scrape the suction side of the pump housing.  The end play is determined by the difference between impeller width and the space between the pump bearing thrust faces.

[22touring]

Per Nat's suggestion, I drilled and tapped the impeller for a 1/4" x 28 TPI pointed-head set screw.

 

I believe it is the pump impeller that determines the fore and aft position of the shaft, and since you've got to move the shaft forward enough so that the front pulley clears the crankcase, the location of the impeller is critical.

 

The hole for the 3/16" pin through my impeller was not drilled on the center line of the impeller, so when it is installed correctly on the new shaft, with the set screw tightened in the hole, the Woodruff key sticks out from the side of the impeller about 1/16" or 3/32". This will never work, right? It would immediately chew up the bushing in the water pump body.  I believe the impeller should be centered over the Woodruff key; correct?  Should I weld up the old hole, center the impeller over the Woodruff key, and drill a divot in the correct position for the set screw?

[nat]

  Are you sure you have the impeller facing the right way?  Open side of mpeller facing forward.  How does the placement of that hole and keyway compare with those of the old shaft?

  I would trim the key and avoid welding the shaft.

[nearchoclatetown]

2 hours ago, 22touring said:

  Should I ?

Put it in a box and mail it to either Romar or Myers. 

[22touring]

"Put it in a box and mail it to either Romar or Myers." 

 

Ha, ha, that is funny, Doug, but I am too dumb and stubborn to do that.

 

I got the water pump installed on the shaft with nice end play by using 5/8" X 1/16" bronze thrust washers and paper gaskets. My only problem is pressing the drive gear onto the shaft.  There seems to be a tiny bit of an interference fit, so what if I press the gear onto the shaft and the keyway doesn't line up with the key, which it probably wouldn't?  Will I be able to turn the gear to line the keyway up, or is this something I should have my friendly local machinist do for me instead?

 

Nat was right: I had the impeller on backwards because I didn't understand how it works.  If you picture its vanes as scallop-shaped, with a concave side and a convex side, it flings the water off the back of the convex side rather than scooping it with the concave side. Thanks for saving my bacon, Nat.

Edited June 14, 2023 by 22touring
addition (see edit history)

[nat]

13 minutes ago, 22touring said:

I should have my friendly local machinist do for me instead?

      In rough and general terms, .001" per inch of diameter is about right for a press fit.  It would be wise to get an accurate measurement on the shaft and bore of the gear so you know how much interference there is.

     Heating the gear to 500F will open the bore about .0025". 

     Shrink fitting has to be done really quickly so it's good to set up a stop so the gear can't go farther than it should.  If possible, assemble it in the press so you can quickly  bring it home with the press if the gear shrinks before it's all the way on.

[22touring]

I'm going to take the entire assembly to my LFM and have him press on both the drive gear and the front pulley.  I'll be sure to ask him afterwards what method he used to press them on, and whether he had to use heat or not, and report back later.

[nat]

     The distributor drive, impeller and pulley are located by the pins.  Only the press fit holds the gear in place.  Judging by the marks on an OEM shaft, the front of the gear should be 2 7/8" from the pulley end of the shaft.

[22touring]

My machinist pressed on the drive gear and the front pulley without having to heat them.  He reamed the i.d. of the pulley a little bit because it was a little wallowed out oval-shaped and therefore fit too tight.  I am quite satisfied with the water pump shaft that I bought from Tom and Cindy Myers, which is probably the same as the ones also sold by Romar, et al.  Everything on it was very accurate. We are lucky that parts like this are being reproduced.  Everything fit the holes in the engine block, and I think I kept the timing correct.

 

Later edit: the first time I installed the assembly to the block, the holes for the gear case and the water pump did not line up with those in the block. The water pump was about 1/16" too far back on the shaft. I took the water pump apart and removed all of the thrust washers that I had thought were Such A Good Idea, so that the pump and shaft could slide forward, essentially letting the position of the drive gear and its case determine the position of the shaft and water pump. There is about 3/16" or so of fore and aft clearance between the drive gear and its case, so this lets the shaft and pump slide backwards and forwards about that far, and then the mounting holes on the gear case and the water pump lined up OK.  So to this extent I am going to respectfully disagree with nearchoc Doug about having the water pump impeller determine the position of the shaft.

 

After this, all I've got to do is paint and mount the front fenders and splash shield, and I'll be pretty much done with this restoration. Of course I will probably have just as many problems installing the fenders as I had with the water pump, so it will probably take longer than I think it will.

Edited June 17, 2023 by 22touring
correction (see edit history)

[22touring]

I forgot that my Dodge Brothers Ignition Unit (distributor) needed love, and it's definitely not a trivial task to give it a cosmetic restoration.  You can't really blast it unless you want to take it all apart, which I don't.  I'd probably mess the timing up if I did.

 

I think the body of my ignition unit was one of the various things that a previous owner had painted with a brush.  He was the husband of the lady who inherited the car from her father.  She told me that as a child, she didn't like to ride in the DB car because it was "too rough".  I think she was referring to Good Old Dodge Bros. Secondary Imbalance.  At some point after buying the DB, her father bought a 6-cylinder car in which she much preferred to ride.

Edited June 18, 2023 by 22touring
addition (see edit history)