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Need advice on stripping down chassis


22touring
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  • 4 months later...

Don’t forget once sandblasted the steel surface needs to sealed with undercoat pretty quickly to prevent oxidation (rust) setting in, I I think I recall a recommendation of painting within four hours but I guess the ambient humidity (moisture in the air) will dictate the urgency.

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Also don't touch with bare hands till painted (use gloves). Your sweat will start rust almost immediately, even when your hands feel dry. But a bigger threat is visitors, they always want to touch your nicely cleaned surface. Looks like you are doing a good job. It's a bugger of a job, but has to be done.

Edited by Bullfrog_eng
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Posted (edited)

My transmission is the early, reversed shift pattern type that has a noisy second gear.  What causes this, and How likely is it that I might be able to fix it myself?  I've never worked on a transmission before.  Should I take it to a transmission shop instead?  Would a transmission shop even know how to work on a DB transmission?  Are you aware of any articles or videos that explain how to work on one?

 

This video does show a fellow overhauling a transmission like mine, but unfortunately it is in fast motion and contains no commentary:

 

 

I also found this thread on our DB forum, which I am going to peruse.

Thanks for any words of wisdom you can give me.

Edited by 22touring
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Straight cut gears are always noisy, excessive noise can be caused by any marks chips or wear in the gears. Our cars a generally not in second gear for long enough to worry about it. Unless your going up a big hill or something like that. They are not difficult to put together so I think you should definitely give it a go yourself. Use plenty of oil on the shafts during assembly so you can check how it all moves once it’s all together. 
If you replace all the bearings and turn the bottom shaft 180 degrees to move the wear to the bottom there is not a lot more that can be done. 

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The noise generated by our gearboxes is usually caused by a combination of wear. It is most obvious in second gear but it is very rarely second gear that is causing it.

The square output shaft fitted to the clutch wears,

 

49A4D4F7-DCC7-4555-B13E-539E09B8F313.jpeg.a1a0fd50cb365529d07090f2a392767a.jpeg

 

partly this is caused by movement due to wear in the nose bearing in the flywheel

 

70F03107-E624-49BA-9B0D-D6F0528A79A2.jpeg.c69a6f884bf139ce8c6785eccecb4731.jpeg

 

and partly wearin the bush in the output shaft (you can see in the first photo) so it is important to renew these when rebuilding the gearbox.

The intermediate gear that fits on this square drive also wears on its internal square drive

 

DECC7764-19E2-4ECF-8E5F-6FB4C7CA702C.jpeg.342383c4264961dd0a59abd392af760f.jpeg

 

causing much rattling. (When rebuilding the gearbox it is best to match a close fitting pair, shaft and intermediate gear.)

This movement then causes wear on the teeth when the gears are engaged, only being silenced when the intermediate gear fits inside the final drive when third gear is selected.

Here in Australia we have a chap who makes new square shafts.

 

2CADE07C-DD47-4601-8074-C4F43E4B2E05.jpeg.26dd94789fb416eae9773c663b08852d.jpeg

 

We had an enthusiast making new gears with slightly reduced inside measurements to take up wear on the old shaft but is sadly no longer with us.

 

 

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Thanks very much Mattml430 and Minibago for the informative replies.

 

I was wondering what you boys think of introducing more positive caster into a 4-cylinder DB's steering by inserting, from the rear, slotted wedges (like that shown in the picture) between the front leaf springs and the axle?

caster wedge.jpg

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Well, funny you should ask.

The very un-nerving and dangerous shimmy (shopping trolleys do it too) created by incorrect castor alignment is quite a common experience here in Australia, several of my DB friends have experienced it as have I.

Mine was caused by the front axle moving back along the spring about 1/4 of an inch on one side after a bump down a drain channel coming out of a service station. Thank goodness for red oxide and chassis black making it easy to see.

Setting a more positive camber will make your steering “centre” (straight ahead) quicker but make things slightly heavier when turning however it will help minimise any bump shimmy when on dirt roads.

My car had worn threads on the spring u bolts which then came loose so I replaced those with a good set and after re-alignment have had no further trouble, others I know have this issues from time to time after hitting a pothole or large bump.

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The old body-to-frame cushion material on my '22 touring car was in such poor condition that I couldn't tell on what part of the top of the frame you're supposed to install the cushion material vs. where you're supposed to leave the top of the frame bare.  Could anybody please clue me in on this?  Here's a picture of the body-to-frame cushion material from the Myers Early Dodge website:

DB body cushion.jpg

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I used the same material on a 36.

 

Not sure if it was OEM, but the old material was cut in about 2"-3" lengths.

 

I cut mine to match then used a drill to open a perfect whole in the center, ran the chassis to body bolts through it.

 

Meaning the material rests between the body and the frame, with the bolt running through it.

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The Master Parts List, at page 134, says there is supposed to be a front body to frame pad on top of each frame rail on both sides, so 2 part nos. 19640 for the front of the frame.  Then it says there are supposed to be center and rear body to frame pads on each side; all 4 of those were the same, part no. 3612.  I'd like to know about how long part nos. 19640 and 3612 were.  Are they all supposed to be located at the body-to-frame bolts? Anybody have a picture of the body to frame pads installed on a frame? Thank you.

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I would like to chase the threads on all of my Alemite grease fittings and the holes into which they thread, but so far I haven't figured out the thread type.  I know it is between 3/8" and 7/16" in diameter and, I think, 24 threads per inch.  But a 3/8" tap or die is definitely too small, while 7/16" ones are definitely too big.  Would anybody know what type of thread is used on the Alemite fittings?

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3 hours ago, 22touring said:

I would like to chase the threads on all of my Alemite grease fittings and the holes into which they thread, but so far I haven't figured out the thread type.  I know it is between 3/8" and 7/16" in diameter and, I think, 24 threads per inch.  But a 3/8" tap or die is definitely too small, while 7/16" ones are definitely too big.  Would anybody know what type of thread is used on the Alemite fittings?

Could those be a pipe thread?

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Posted (edited)

Thanks, Jack.  It might be pipe thread.  I'll try some pipe fittings that I've got.

 

Later addition: it turned out to be 1/8" X 27 TPI NPT.  I'm guessing that Horace Dodge used pipe threads because they don't need a locking nut.

Edited by 22touring (see edit history)
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The transmission shop that has torn down the early-style (reverse shift pattern) DB transmission from my late '22 touring car has informed me that I need to replace second gear.  Now on the Myers Early Dodge site, I note that they have new second gears available only for early-style DB transmissions that have countershaft bushings (as opposed to countershaft bearings, I assume).  Can anybody tell me if my transmission has countershaft bushings?  (Of course I could ask the transmission shop this question, but they are closed for the weekend and I would like to order the gear right away, if possible.)  Thanks again, everybody.

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Please check before buying a new second gear as it is not usually the second gear that is worn.

The gear normally worn is the intermediate gear.

Please read my earlier post in this thread.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

So the Mechanic's Instruction Manual, at page 139, states that the leaf spring shackle bolts should be tightened up and then backed off 1/4 of a turn, but I couldn't find where it discusses the front tie rod pins.  Should those be drawn up tight, or backed off a bit after tightening?

 

Edit:  I discovered that if you tighten them up too much the steering gets too stiff, so I backed them off just a little bit, until the steering operated freely. 

tie rod link pins.jpg

Edited by 22touring
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1 hour ago, 22touring said:

So the Mechanic's Instruction Manual, at page 139, states that the leaf spring shackle bolts should be tightened up and then backed off 1/4 of a turn, but I couldn't find where it discusses the front tie rod pins.  Should those be drawn up tight, or backed off a bit after tightening? 

tie rod link pins.jpg

It’s looking good. They need to be done up tight, but if the pin doesn’t line up when tight you can back it of to line the pin up. But better to line the pin up as your tightening it. Make sure all the paint is of both surfaces. 

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"Can anybody tell me if my transmission has countershaft bushings?"

 

Master Parts List, page 344:  Cars up to 798400 have 2 countershaft bushings, part no. 427.  Between car nos. 798401 and 800921, some cars' transmissions have the countershaft bushings and some have Hyatt roller bearings on the countershaft, part no. 16105.  After car no. 800922 they all have the Hyatt roller bearings.  My car is nol. 807012, so presumably I have the roller bearing countershaft and won't be able to use the second gearset that Myers sells, but I'll have to call the transmission shop on Monday to make sure.

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4 hours ago, 22touring said:

So the Mechanic's Instruction Manual, at page 139, states that the leaf spring shackle bolts should be tightened up and then backed off 1/4 of a turn, but I couldn't find where it discusses the front tie rod pins.  Should those be drawn up tight, or backed off a bit after tightening? 

tie rod link pins.jpg

Is that just the photo or is that tie rod bowed?

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"Is that just the photo or is that tie rod bowed?"

 

Yes, it is bowed, keiser31.  I didn't even realize that it is supposed to be straight until you pointed it out.  It's been that way ever since I bought the car back in the mid 1980s.  The front wheel toe-in seems correct, though. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/15/2022 at 8:40 AM, Minibago said:

Minibago wrote: "Please check before buying a new second gear as it is not usually the second gear that is worn. The gear normally worn is the intermediate gear. Please read my earlier post in this thread."

 

I will indeed discuss this with the transmission shop, Minibago.  Thanks for the excellent information and the pictures!

 

 

Edited by 22touring (see edit history)
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I need to figure out what to do with my steering box.  It has a bit of lost motion no matter where you position the worm wheel, and that free play is definitely noticeable at the steering wheel and is an unwelcome distraction while driving.  On cars belonging to other Brothers, I have seen that it is possible to eliminate all of the lost motion between the worm gear and the worm wheel if everything is in good shape and adjusted correctly, so I want the same from my steering box.

 

Only the last two lock slots in the brass eccentric bushing in my steering box mesh anywhere near correctly; the rest of the slots are way too loose.  Right now I am using the second-to-last slot, which results in the present lost motion, but when I try to use the last slot it seizes the box up tight.  My layman's diagnosis is that the eccentric bushing needs to be re-sized, maybe by metal spraying followed by machining.  Your thoughts?

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Well, shades of the Evans and Dodge bicycle:

 

The small spanner wrenches sold by bicycle tool companies for holding the slotted nut on chainring bolts works perfectly for the slotted nut on the output terminal of a DB starter-generator.

 

Likewise, a (thin) 32 mm. bicycle headset wrench fits perfectly the narrow hexagonal area on the DB steering box for adjusting the worm and worm wheel mesh eccentric bushing. 

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Today I'm going to try to remove all of the brake components and the brake control rods from the axle spider assemblies.  I sure hope I remember how all this goes back together.  Taking lots of pictures.  Hopefully I'll be reassembling it in a few days, before I forget.  I might have some questions for you all when I reassemble it, however, because I want to get the brakes working well.  They never did before, due to error on my part (missing return spring on one side) and mis-adjustment.

 

I also discovered that the tubes on both rear spring seat oil cups were totally blocked with grease and dirt, so none of the oil that I had been putting into them for the last 35 years had been getting to the spring seat as it should have. 

 

 

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I did purchase the new second gear set sold by Myers Early Dodge, and it seems to be very nicely made.  The main shaft gear is exactly the same as the one that was already in my transmission, but the countershaft gear, which is intended for the earlier bushed countershaft, has to have its bore enlarged and its keyway broached deeper in order to work with my roller bearing countershaft.  The gear set should work well after this machine work is done, though.  The only other problem with my transmission was a worn bushing in its square drive input shaft, which I also obtained from Myers.  I'm sure hoping that second gear will run quietly now.

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Posted (edited)

The brake spider assemblies are riveted to the axle, and therefore can't be removed, so in order to remove the brake control rods you must push solid pins out of the levers on the rods and then pull the rods out through the spider assembly.

 

Edit:  Correction.  The service brake control rods are affixed to their levers with solid pins, but the emergency brake control rods are attached to their levers with roll pins.  I was able to get the solid pins out of the service brake control rods OK, but am having trouble removing the roll pins from the emergency brake rods.  The roll pins' walls seem to be pretty thin, so apparently you need a hardened steel drift, or another roll pin, of just the right diameter to use as a drift.  I don't happen to have another roll pin of the right diameter, but a youtube video that I watched suggested finding an alan wrench of just the right diameter and sacrificing it by cutting the short end off, then filing the long end flat and using it as the drift.  I'm going to try that, but I certainly would appreciate it if any of you fellow Dodge Brothers who have disassembled DB brake control rod levers (I know you're out there!) would take pity on me and give me some advice about removing these.  Thank you.

today.jpg

Edited by 22touring (see edit history)
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Upon further clean-up and inspection of the area around where the emergency brake control rods attach to their levers, I can't really figure out what kind of pin or attachment Horace used.  I don't really see a pin at all.  A .187" pin gauge will go almost all the way through the attachment point, but it won't come out the other side.  I really would appreciate it if somebody would tell me the method by which these levers are attached to the emergency brake control rod and how to remove them.  Thanks again.

pin gauge.jpg

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I have 2 rear axles here and it looks like a pin was inserted then swedged . The fact that you can insert a pin into one side seems that you should be able to punch the pin out the other side.  

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