1923 Dodge engine

[Mark Gregush]

When the guys put Ford Model A cranks in Model T blocks, without having the crank ground any more than to clean up, the main cap bolts holes come in to the saddles a wee bit. When the Babbitt is poured, the hole is just cleaned out for the bolt.

RE the block I showed; yes on saving guts. Right now it is taking up less storage space sitting on its tail end.

[cutdown]

The stud wasn't pulling out. The bloody nut was stripping.  I bought a complete set of new nuts for rods and mains.  Have to make sure the stud hasn't been too damaged by the nut.

I saw on another thread where the chassis number on a dodge truck was just behind its steering box on the bottom edge of the left hand rail. I had another good look at mine the other day and found the chassis number in the same place as the truck, but on the r/h rail at the bottom edge [ like the truck.   a picture is worth a 1000 words eh ] When I was looking previously I was looking at the middle to the top of the rail.  It is 905380 and is the same as my ID plate. [ my eyes aren't so good now but that plate was really hard to read. I had it down as 905830, which was wrong.

 

The crank shaft on my original engine didn't ring so have to presume it is cracked. The other shaft rang like a bell so that's the one I will be crack testing and using. Engine reconditioner that I will be using can do all the work I require but not until February.

getting there slowly.

[cutdown]

Took all my engine bits down to Franklin Engineering Ltd in Pukekohe yesterday. The full works including regrinding the cam to a later profile. First job for them was to crack test the crank, then carry out the rest on the work next month as they were so busy. They had some really big engines in there for reconditioning.

[Minibago]

I have spare gears Dereck, let me know how you go with your local guy and if you need some I will clean some up for you.

[cutdown]

Thanks Minibago. I have just tonight been offered to look at gears down in Whangarei, so might be best if I took up that offer first. I am full of hope that I may find some "perfect" gears in the end.

[cutdown]

Still not much info coming back from the engine reconditioners. I will call in and see them next Friday when I am heading for the NZ Norton Rally.

 

While waiting around I decided to do something about the extra wear happening in the rear cylinders of both engine blocks.  Theory seems to be that the rear of the engine is getting hotter than the front. What do you do.  Maybe direct water to the back on the block via the welch plug hole. Can do but need to space out the manifold to alow room for the fitting. Colin then warned me about clearance between exhaust and steering box [ RHD ].  Next thing was to refit the dummy block and refit the steering box. Looked ok. Just need to alter the angle the exhaust  a bit to allow better clearance. Colin showed me his exhaust connection where he had fitted a 2 bolt flange plate in front of the flange nut, so he could tighten the exhaust pier more securely into the manifold. He had been having hassles keeping the exhaust from leaking at the flange. Another idea to look into.

 

Talk about reinventing the wheel.  Yep, its the way to go.

 

Our Nortons when they left the factory had many problems built into them.  Now the designs have been reinvented by all of us riders, we now have very reliable 50 year old bikes to ride. 

 

Bypass pipe made up from 1/2 copper plumbing pipe braised into the adaptor at the back of the engine which fits in the welch plug hole and sealed with an "O"ring, also the front end braised into another pipe made up between the w/pump and the block water inlet where the 1/2 inch pipe bends forward into the direction of water flow. There is no restriction at that point as the inside of the adaptor pipe is larger the the ID of w/.pump and water inlet. 4 extension adaptors made up for the exhaust manifold.

Edited March 1, 2022 by cutdown
more info (see edit history)

[John McEwan]

The rear cylinders gets hot because the water jacket in the block gets clogged up with sludge and rust surrounding the cylinders. It takes a bit of work to clean them out but worth it.

[cutdown]

Yes I did notice that it took a lot of cleaning. Water blasting and high pressure air.

[Minibago]

Water blasting and high pressure air on their own will not make a great deal of difference as the decades of sediment set really hard.

I spent many long hours poking and prodding with stiff wire from coat hangars (from the dry cleaners) you think you have cleaned properly, you have a cup of tea and go back to find that there is more, the water soaks in and seems to loosen the build up allowing for more progress. 

The biggest worry is between the cylinders, the build up of sediment fills the space and creates the heat as water cannot get around to cool.  
I spent several hours each day for about a week until all the cylinders had clear waterways all around, not an easy job but worthwhile to do.

[cutdown]

I have a 3/16 inch tube that I attach to the high pressure air hose that gets right in and blasts the bottom of the block. Takes ages be eventually you get most of the crud and rust out.

[Minibago]

The space between the cylinders goes right up to the top of the block.

Cleaning the crud out of the bottom of the block does not clear the spaces between the cylinders.
The volume I kept getting out of mine made me think several times “that must be all of it” but no.

The penny dropped when I first cleared a path between the easiest two cylinders, then I realised what was required for all of them.

Too many DB owners run hot and blame the radiator.

[cutdown]

Its just about impossible to know when you have all the contamination from these blocks. You just have to be persistent with the cleaning process. Hi pressure hopefully bounce up to the top to clean out what you don't know about.

I heard back from the reconditioner today. One crack near an exhaust valve but cracks in main bearing caps so I will be sending down my other block. I will deliver them the 3 main caps I have here to get them to check them before swapping blocks. They can make new bearing caps but hopefully the other block will be ok.   Bores less worn on tis one. The crank shaft was tested and had no cracks.  We are getting there.

[cutdown]

Got word back from the recondioner last week and was told of 1 cracked exhaust seat and 2 cracked main bearing caps.  As I was going past them to the National Norton rally last Friday, I took in the main caps from my spare engine for them to check [ with the idea of swapping blocks over ].  When I got back from the rally on Tuesday, they told me 2 of those main caps were cracked as well.  All near the sharp edge where the nuts sit. They will get a piece of round steel and make new caps out of that and fit hardened seats to the block.

[cutdown]

Some photos of the cracked main bearing caps.   I am told my "short block"  will be ready in about 3 weeks. 

 

The rear and centre main caps were cracked, with the centre one cracked on both sides.

 

I had the front guards fully repaired and painted, and had the front chassis rails straightened out while the car was at the panel beaters. All back home now with the guards now sitting on the tray. [ that exercise was the most expensive part of the restoration so far ] Don't want to fit them till I have the running gear fitting  and proved.

[Minibago]

Thanks for the alert Dereck, I have not seen cracks like that before.

[cutdown]

I missed them , but crud build up in he engine would have disguised it. Also, all the bolts had had the snot wound out of them.

 

Pulled my front suspension out of the car a stripped all shackles and bushes.  Only one bush had not worn completely through.  Looks like I will be boring the shackles out to take 9/16 inch bolts. Front pins will be reusable.  I can only get metric bushes but at  least I will have them tomorrow. look like I will strip the rear springs a s well. i expected bad wear in the front becuae of the twist and miss alignment of the front chassis rails. all good fun. Just as well I am retired and can spare the  time now.

4 hours ago, Minibago said:

Thanks for the alert Dereck, I have not seen cracks like that before.

Ni worries. SOMEONE ON THIS FORUM WARNED ME ABOUT CRACKED CRANK'S SO i CHECKED THAT OUT.  THE ONE ON MY SPARE ENGINE WAS OK BUT i AM SURE THE ONE THAT WAS IN THE CAR WAS CRAcKED.  [ F..K CAPS LOCKS ]

 

I wonder if new brake drums are available. I think they are all getting pretty thin now.  Just as well they are made of good steel or we would all be in trouble.

[MikeC5]

Yea, I wish there were replacement brake drums available but I haven't seen any...

[Mark Gregush]

For the Model T Ford's, you can buy a disk brake setup. Still uses the original parking brakes and has rotors welded to the drum. 

[Minibago]

We have folk here in Oz cutting the outer ring off early Dodge four drums and welding on a new steel ring, I questioned whether a weld procedure had been written, tested, qualified and a welder qualified to use it and just received a blank look. We have little braking as is, I cannot recommend anyone using any brake equipment welded without the correct metalurgy and weld procedures qualified and followed complete with correct documentation provided with the component.

I have seen the result of the above Australian replacement drum, the wear surface on the drum, the heat blueing on the steel and the stuffed brake bands.

Please!

Safety first.

[cutdown]

I have been thinking of what you have mentioned.  A qualified boiler maker or blacksmith could do that but are there any left now.  All that kind of work is now being done by the Chinese because at the moment it is cheaper.  When the time comes  though, and when there are no qualified journeymen left, and no businesses making there products in their own countries, what will happen. If we are not careful, we will become the servants of the Chinese and paid what we are worth.

 

I mentioned blacksmith here because my Uncle was a black-smith and he helped my father sort out a diff problem with my grandfathers 37 Vauxhall 10 [ bought new and which he owed and drove till 1972 ]. There was a weakness in how the crown-wheel was attached to its carrier by  a series of very small bolts, which regularly came loose.  The Vauxhall 12 had a better diff, but was too wide for the 10. My uncle said go and get one and he would narrow it down.  He shortened the banjo and shortened both axles.  They never broke and never gave any trouble after that. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by cutdown
spelling (see edit history)

[cutdown]

On 9/5/2021 at 11:02 PM, Minibago said:

Hi Dereck,

Firstly the plug thread is definitely 5/16ths UNF I just put a bolt in to try it. 
If you have no tap maybe cut a bolt down the centre for a half inch or so with a fine hacksaw and use this as a rudimentary thread cleaner.

 

Next, I agree that the mechanics manual is not very comprehensive, in all my work removing engines on these I have always removed the rear axle and torque tube and cleared it away then removed the gearbox. Supporting the engine the banjo is removed followed by the engine.

 

The mention of a cam shaft regrind to provide an overlap was from me I believe, the cam grind I had done was to “Ralph’s  recipe” it was a bit of a secret I think but I understand the later Chrysler grind was the guide, I am not an engineer so the profile I cannot explain nor can I tell you the dwell, sorry.

I just got a call today saying they cant grind the cam to the later profile because the lobes are too narrow.

 

Hi Minibago. Hope I can get a bit more info on this work done over in your neck of the woods as i really would like a better cam profile if at all possible.

 

Dereck

Edited July 4, 2022 by cutdown
more info (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

6 hours ago, cutdown said:

I just got a call today saying they cant grind the cam to the later profile because the lobes are too narrow.

 

Hi Minibago. Hope I can get a bit more info on this work done over in your neck of the woods as i really would like a better cam profile if at all possible.

 

Dereck

We have had great success with Clive grinding our dodge cams. 
Here is his website. 
https://www.clivecams.com.au/

[cutdown]

On 9/5/2021 at 11:02 PM, Minibago said:

Hi Dereck,

The mention of a cam shaft regrind to provide an overlap was from me I believe, the cam grind I had done was to “Ralph’s  recipe” it was a bit of a secret I think but I understand the later Chrysler grind was the guide, I am not an engineer so the profile I cannot explain nor can I tell you the dwell, sorry.

Thanks Matt. I have sent them an email. I would probably need to source a useable cam for someone  in your locality to enable the job to be done quicker and probably more economically. Do you think that would be possible.

Dereck

[cutdown]

Clive cams have just got back to me. They need to see my cam to check it can be reground, or they could make a new one for me. I wonder if I could buy a suitable cam off one of the local Dodge owners in Melbourne. depends on the costs involved.

 

Dereck

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck,

 

I have a couple spare, give me the weekend to dig one out and we can look at costs. The major thing is to ensure it does not get damaged by rough handling during transit. I have done this before with Clive and a DB owner in Qld with success.

Nige.

[cutdown]

I envisaged making a plywood box the right size for the cam and wrapping cushioning around then securing in the box. If all goes well, I can send you  my spare cam so that the reground cam can be placed in the same box.

 

I got told also this week that another one of the BE shells cracked so Graham is going to make new ones when he gets back from holiday in 2 weeks or so.

[Minibago]

My thoughts are bubble wrap and then slide into a length of poly water pipe with a screw cap.

The postage cost is far too great so don’t send me your old one.

I live in Adelaide so I will pack my one up and send it to Clive in Melbourne with the directions to send on to you once ground.
You will need to talk to Clive to arrange payment for the grind and postage over to you.

send me an email on

nigel@candl.org

include your phone number and I will call you for a chat over the weekend.

[cutdown]

They got back to me today. 8-10 weeks before Clive's can start on the cam. Bugger. Maybe I will get it back on the road before it's 100 years old.  Certainly hope so.  At least it will give me more time to sort the seat and the rear guards out. Do I need that  much time?

Once the engine is back in that the above work finished, I have to prove the carb, fuel pump  and water pump. They all checked out ok but proof is in the working. Once all that is sorted out, I can refit the restored guards,  headlamps and fit the bonnet. Then I can take photos and start the process of registering the car unless we can start the process before its finished and photo's provided.

 

Another birthday just gone since i started. 

 

Dereck

[Mattml430]

Sorry Derek I’ve only just caught up on this thread. I do have an old cam it’s out of a D block. Would that be the same. Sounds like Nigal has it all under control though. 👍

[Minibago]

All good Matt, but thanks just the same.

I have a reasonable one here which should be ready for posting tomorrow.

 

 

I collected anything and everything over the years to prevent it going to scrap and now it is very pleasing to be able to share things.

We all need help from time to time.

[cutdown]

I just had a ring from the cam specialist this arvo. I think they are back tracking, and may now want to grind that cam for me here. What the hell should I do. maybe I should let Clive's know and maybe they can send specs to NZ. I have just received the specs of my std cam by email.

Maybe in the first place they thought I wanted a hot cam.  Clive's said it would not be a hot cam but one which gives a bit more low down power which is all I am after..

I was asked what the difference is between std and modified cam. They said care needs to be taken or you can make them worse. Has anyone experienced the difference between the std cam, and the Ralph's special.

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck,

Firstly, I would suggest that “Ralph’s Recipe” would be regarded as Proprietary Information.

Much hard work and research goes into the engineering development of these innovations, why would this be simply given away? 
A “Hot cam” is a completely different beast, as has been pointed out, without the correct and accurate research and development engine performance can be severely adversely impacted.

Your cam specialist is just that.

Ralph was a Dodge Brothers enthusiast and gifted engineer who worked tirelessly without reward to improve the breathing and combustion of the DB four in combination with the gear set to lift the ratios of first and second gear. Sadly Ralph has now passed on but he did not recoup much at all of the costs involved in the work he did.

Now I find many DB owners contacting me looking for the specifications and drawings for all his work, the head, the gears, the cam for free.

I shall now remove myself from this discussion.

[robert b]

I agree with your stance Minibago, I to get this type of inquiry also. Bob

[cutdown]

I have told Clive's what has happened. If they want to help the local outfit here, so be it, otherwise I will get them to do it as was being organized. I was about to press the button so to speak when I got the call. It's just a pity I wasn't told about this the first time I asked back in January because initially, I didn't know about the Ralphs recipe. I was given a price a year ago form them but it was just a general price for grinding a cam I think.

Basically I think the engine reconditioner felt a bit guilty about not taking the action to grind the cam as was requested, and only did it when I reminded them that the cam grinder could give them the specs for valve clearances. n I have been kept busy doing a lot of other things to the car  and also did expect to keep reminding them [ the reconditioner ] what was required.

Not much point in getting pissed off about it as its only a TOY.

 

At least I can see light at the end of the tunnel with respect to the seat. The rear framework has just about been completed.

[cutdown]

A big thanks to Clive's cams for passing on the information regarding the new cam profile. They couldn't have been nicer. Just like all the great help I have had since coming onto this forum.

[cutdown]

 

Got word yesterday that the cam has been reground so now the recondioner can rebuild the block. Hopefully I will get the short block back soon so I can get the truck going. Once I get it all sorted and running well, I can refit the "new" front guards, then the running boards. Once they are in place I can sort out making mounting brackets for the rear guards and fit them properly. 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by cutdown (see edit history)

[cutdown]

We finally got the engine back last year and proceeded to rebuild and refit it. Had trouble getting the right colour for the engine so in the end, I picked a std colour that looked close. It turned out lighter than expected but what the hell., 

[cutdown]

I decided that because the fuel tank was old, I would fit a CAV filter in the line, and as recommended by Colin, I also fitted an SU fuel pump as a backup when going up the hills around here. After due trial and error, I got every thing in the fuel supply working. I had timed the engine and put marks on the timing cover and the fan pulley to line up exactly with TDC.

 I thought I would jump start in from my Land Cruiser but the starter just turned once and stopped. bugger, that's what it did 35 years ago when I checked it. Forgot about that. I removed it and took it to one of the old school sparkies here, and he proved one of the charging field coils had cooked. I got in touch with Colin and made arrangements to go down to see him about two weeks later. We looked through his collection of Dodge bits and found the body of one, which tested out ok. We then rebuilt the starter using my armature and then set it up and made adjustments to the charging and also proved my starter switch [ which I had taken down to him as well ] was doing all the right things.  He also suggested tow starting it first because the engine was so tight.

It was now time to find out the rest of the unknowns.

We had to wait some time because it had been raining so much, the paddock outside the garage was too soft. We towed it around the paddock with the cruiser but no go. Got a puff and a bit of  a bang and that's all. The carb body was leaking so removed that and made a new gasket for it. Buggered around with the leads [ thought I may have got something wrong ] but to no avail. Ended up backfiring once bloody loudly. Nah. Timing was definitely wrong that time.  Ok. Mag. It had sparked when I tested it on my lathe but was it good enough. I removed it and set it up on the lathe and started asking questions.  [ I also proved I had set it up correctly the first time ] I had a  hot blue spark with all plugs, and when I removed one lead and held it away 1/8 inch it stall sparked but when moving it slightly further away, it either would not spark or did it intermittently. I checked with my auto sparkie and he suggested a couple of firms that did Mags. The first one didn't answer my call but the second one in Blenheim spoke to me. Yes, it needed a complete overhaul. Got some prices and was told he would not start it till next year and could take 8 weeks before it was finished. I quickly built a frame yesterday to hold it in, put that in a box and booked a courier. It was picked up this morning.

 

At least I proved we had 2 PSI oil pressure on the gauge when we towed the car.

 

One modification I did do was to make up a 3 bolt flange for the front pipe using a new manifold Nut. This enabled and solid connection to the manifold. Next thing was to make a 3 point mounting for the exhaust using cotton reel exhaust mounts as used on Mini's and Norton Commando's. These were fitted so that the rubber were in compression vertically, with no side thrust on them. I made up a tailpipe the exited in front of the right rear wheel [ The wooden deck was too close to the rear axle ]. I then cut the front pipe and fitted a piece of flexible exhaust, to remove any stress that may occur.

Edited December 14, 2022 by cutdown (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

Colour looks good. 

[cutdown]

Thanks Matt. Not having seen the original, it seems ok.  Your a life saver with those gear box lay shaft bearings you sent me.

 

All the best for Christmas everyone.

 

Dereck