1923 Dodge engine

[Minibago]

Your standard DB cam shaft can have the lobes reground to the new profile.

Here in Australia we use a company in Melbourne Victoria that only does camshaft grinding. It costs us about A$130 plus postage.

[John McEwan]

13 hours ago, Minibago said:

Your standard DB cam shaft can have the lobes reground to the new profile.

Here in Australia we use a company in Melbourne Victoria that only does camshaft grinding. It costs us about A$130 plus postage.

Do they hardweld the lobes before grinding or just regrind the standard lobes?

[22touring]

"Do they hardweld the lobes before grinding or just regrind the standard lobes?"

 

I was wondering the same thing, John.  It certainly seems like they would have to weld up the existing lobes, doesn't it?  But I don't know, so I'm waiting for one of the smart guys to answer your question.

[Minibago]

The magicians at Clive Cams grind the original lobes to a different profile, I am not an engineer but as I understand it the cam lobe is ground all the way around this makes for a smaller circumference on the back side where there is no lobe and allows for enough meat for the lobe to be ground to the desired shape.

This is how I understand it.

🤔

 

[nearchoclatetown]

They can do that to a point. If duration or lift is TOO radical they have to weld. I doubt the grind you refer to would be in that category. 

[Minibago]

The grind for our engine is nowhere near radical so no welding needed, it is more to create an overlap than increase valve lift.

[Mattml430]

It is just a grind that Clive does for us. But you do have to adjust the key way on the timing gear on the 6. I had to take about 1.5mm out of the key way to get the correct lift on the valve at TDC. 

[Minibago]

Sorry Matt, all my experience is with the early Four Cylinder Dodge Brothers cars and where most of Ralph’s work was aimed.

However he did recommend changing to a Chrysler or Desoto head for DD sixes but I have no knowledge or experience with these.

[cutdown]

After stripping both my engines, I can use the best parts form both of them.  The crank on my original is good, but it looks like some Bozo has removed the Dippers from the rods. [ I found the second engine had them as part of the con rod caps ]  I am looking at changing the bearings over on the rods to see if that will work.  I am going to have to bore the engine 20 thou o/size though and get a new Generator gear and chain.  Looks like Myers in the States could be the place to shop but I have heard freight is a bit dicey from there at the moment.  Is there anywhere closer to NZ that may be able to supply these parts?

 

I have played around stripping the spare water pump to  get familiar with that. The shaft is totally Knackered and the inner housing has worn away. I can easily make up a bush and hat bush to take up the wear.  Has anyone ever thought of using hydraulic lip seals in the water pump and gear drive assy? 

 

I ran the Magneto up in my lathe and proved that works. The original water pump holds water as well.  I was told that those Magneto's can give trouble when they get hot. Has anyone ever fitted a heat shield over it to keep the heat from the exhaust manifold getting to it?

 

All the best.

 

Dereck

Edited October 28, 2021 by cutdown
photo's (see edit history)

[cutdown]

It seems that when I went to order new pistons and 84 link timing chain from Myers, the the engine is pre 1923 according to Myers.  When  was sold the car I was told it was a 21 model. This seems to fit with the  info in the workshop manual as the mention of cars after A875-380[ March 23 ] had a timing chain, and the chassis no i was given with the vehicle [ unattached ] is 905830  [ May 23 ]. Obviously the engine is prior to the A875, although still a 23 series or earlier.  Who knows how to I D these cars.

 

Dereck

Edited November 1, 2021 by cutdown (see edit history)

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck,

Cars have often been put together with bits from everywhere so you should not trust a number on a loose plate as the original. The chassis number will be stamped into the chassis and this is what should identify the year of the car.

The early cars had it stamped on the cross chassis rail just at the base of the front seat base. Here is the list.

 

 

The engine number was usually higher but not always In synch however many cars no longer have the original engine often not even the correct age related engine. Let us know your stamped chassis number and the number stamped on the block.

[nearchoclatetown]

Engine number should be about 50,000 higher then serial number. Does it have primer cups? Three freeze plugs close to carb?

[cutdown]

It has 4 primer cups and only one welch [ frost/freeze ] plug near the rear exhaust port on both engines.  I have 2 engines [ the same ]. No stamped numbers on either the engines that I can see, but casting marks in front of the carb port.  They are 022 and 14322. Might that suggest both engines could be 1922.

 

Apart from the wooden deck, the only wood in the whole vehicle is that of the windscreen frame and under the top of the steel skins on the doors. Are there any other distinguishing features that could help ID this car please?

 

The mention of vehicles prior to A875-380 was also an indication that something wasn't right. After that number the engines had timing chains according to the workshop manual I have. I worked out ages ago the the number 905830 was built around 18/5/23, hence the heading on this topic. Its possible as has been mentioned, the car could be 1923 but the engines I have are not from the car with that number.

 

Anyway. Progress so far. I got the fuel pump sorted out and it should work. I am checking out the carb right now and it looks in order but has the 40 years of non use look, but all there and maybe a wee bit of wear. There is play in the metering rack and the pin is loose in the rack [ wobbles ( meant to ) and some up and down movement but all  seems ok ]. 

Needs 20 thou o/size pistons. Plenty of meat on the clutch linings but need to strip and free it up.  Gearbox seems OK.

 

I have removed the SU fuel pump but unsure where the original bolted. Looks like 2 holes very near the bottom l/h edge of the firewall.  I have been recommended to mount the SU down the back to assist with delivering fuel on the long uphill drives we have around here.  [ I was advised that if i saw a hill coming I was to floor the throttle and  Because of loss of vacuum on the long hills, the SU was a good backup. 

 

Just discussing the ID of the engine with Myers prior to getting the bits sent out to NZ.

 

All the best and thanks again.

 

Dereck

[Minibago]

The car sounds like an all steel Budd body fully imported new rather than built locally on an imported chassis and running gear. Both of mine are Budd bodies.

The chassis number on my 1919Touring and on the 1917 Roadster are stamped here. I am not sure about later cars.

A note here, if your wheelbase is 114 inches then it is pre July 1923, after that it was changed to 116 inches.

 

 

The engine number is on the block just above the carburettor mount.

 

 

As you can see the engine fitted to my Touring is a much later block than it should be.

The SU fuel pump is not correct, your car should have a vacuum tank and this supplies fuel to the carburettor by gravity, many fires have been experienced when electric fuel pump pressure overcomes the carburettor float seat and the subsequent fuel spill ignites.

Having travelled several times in your country with the stupendous scenery and magnificent hills I can well understand the concerns relating to steep hills and running out of vacuum though.  
Timing chain.

The first four cylinder to have a timing chain was the “Fast Four” released in July 1927 quite a bit of difference in several areas so your 23 or 24 year engine will have a gear drive to the camshaft.

[cutdown]

Hi Minibago. The SU pump idea is controlled by a hidden switch or button that can be activated only when necessary.  If you feel your car is starting to feel like it is starving of fuel, give it a jab for a second or so to help fill the vacuum pump.  My second engine has 890-218 just above the carb.  Had to really look to see it.  I will have to go around to my daughters garage to check the other engine, which might be easier to see as it is sitting vertically .

 

Picture below of the spare in ,my garage. Hanging from the cam thrust pad, which wont bloody com out.  Thanks for the help with locating the numbers.  Its a big learning curve.

Dereck 

Edited November 2, 2021 by cutdown (see edit history)

[Minibago]

We are all learning (or should be) all the time. It is really good to have such a group of very experienced folk on this forum willing to help. 
The SU sounds well set up 👍

The cam thrust pad can be a pain to remove, I use a slide hammer but it is still a pain. Lots of penetrene is needed.

 

[cutdown]

Here is a couple of pics of my "Slide Hammer". Attach a 12 inch length of heavy chain to the head of that axle and the other to the work, and give it hell.  Nothing gives. Usually. But not the dodge cam plug. Its resting against the 24 inch front wheel.

 

The engine number on the original engine is 958-682  and it's a 114 inch chassis.

 

I serviced the SU pump last night and got it going properly. It just needed cleaning of the points and resetting the diaphragm adjustment.  Works a treat. Its over 40 years since it last may have worked.

 

I forgot to look for the chassis number on that cross member.

Edited November 2, 2021 by cutdown
adding pictures (see edit history)

[Minibago]

The cam thrust pad is a very tight fit and is quite long in the body so it is most important to keep it straight when removing otherwise, if pulled from one side, it will jam tight. I use a weight type slide hammer keeping the pull central.

 

 

Another option is to use a piece of high tensile threaded rod screwed into the plug, thread a cup over the rod (I made one using a piece of thick walled pipe and welding a thick plate on the end) and tighten a decent sized nut to act as a puller.

Extrapolating on that idea, if still unsuccessful, you could drill and tap four equidistant holes in the plate on the end of the cup, secure the threaded rod (or high tensile bolt) and tighten the four bolts against the block, I would recommend a protective plate under the cup with a centre hole to clear the plug in order to protect the block from possible damage.

[cutdown]

That's a good idea. I can turn something like that up on my lathe. I found a piece of steel tube with the right ID so will soon get onto it

 

I was checking through my spare bits yesterday and found most of another magneto. When I took the covers off I could see that it had been run to destruction, so I had better have a look at my "good" mag to see if it needs lubrication. No point in having it stuff up when on the road as I don't have a replacement.

Edited November 4, 2021 by cutdown
added details (see edit history)

[cutdown]

Thanks Minibago.  I finished making the puller up yesterday and got one thrust plug out yesterday and the other one this morning. i can now seriously consider grinding one of the shafts to that Chrysler profile as suggested. Just have to find someone who can do it. I also managed to drill out the 2 broken manifold studs and re-thread them on the engine I have chosen to rebuild. Also, had to make an adapter to enable drilling out the stud  holding the water outlet to the block. the nut was totally seized to the stud and it broke about 1/4 inch away from the block, iside the water jacket. That was fun but successfully achieved although I haven't got the water outlet thread in as straight as I would like. Might have to reshape the water outlet to compensate, but that's easy.  will be boring it out to 20 thou o/size.  Still have to decided which crank to use. Also, I am renewing the bearings in the gearbox.  Clutch is fine, although it had rusted together [ as expected ].  I have to sort out the brakes now as well because they are bloody useless as they are.t

 

 

[Minibago]

Dereck, Great news regarding your cam plugs, I would recommend crack testing the crankshaft as I went through five before finding a good one.

[cutdown]

Thanks for that. Hopefully the crank out of the original engine is ok, as it has the best finish and bearings. Apparently a first check to see if a crank might be ok is to see how it "rings " like a bell when suspended. A long ringing means a good bell. A short dull ring means its cracked.

Edited November 17, 2021 by cutdown
photo's (see edit history)

[cutdown]

Hi Minibago.  You can now see what I can see.  Very similar to the front wheel but in this case, its a 21 inch wheel rim.  Does this mean we may have a better idea of how old the car might be.

 

All the best.  Dereck

 

ps. had a quote of $431.25 NZ for regrinding the cam., Bit of a surprise for me but I have been out of the Auto industry for 21 years now.

[John McEwan]

$185 in Melbourne.

 

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck,

I am no expert but the chassis number stamped on the cross rail is the only way to be certain of the true build date.

This is how the car will be dated for registration.

The chassis length, 114 inches, indicates pre July 1923.

The rear axle is not the original for your car nor are the wheels.

Your cam grind is rather expensive however a Melbourne grind plus postage two ways would probably amount to the same.

Regarding the puller you could make one up on your lathe perhaps using the same thread as the hub cap?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cutdown]

I keep forgetting to get under the car and check that chassis no. Too many things to organise and one track mind. I am heading around to the men's shed now to see if we have the expertise to make that puller. The have a decent lathe  etc.

Thanks for the help. It will all happen eventually.  BTW the rear axle looks the same as that shown in the Dodge manual for the light truck. The brake pedal is very soggy but when I removed the rods etc, the 2 main ones were slightly bent, so pedal action has to straighten them out before they can do their work.

 

D

[cutdown]

Just checked that cross member. Could not find any number on it. I remember looking before now, and not finding a number. That cross member is pretty clean, and the paint on it has been well applied so number doesn't appear to be hidden by any paint. Build date estimated to be 18/5/23 from the chassis number plate I have.  I do need a photograph of another cars chassis number attached to the firewall, as I can see no obvious holes where the chassis number was attached.

We do have the gear to make the hub puller as well.

 

D

[Minibago]

If you have plenty of meat left on your brake band material then setting ip should be done from the band forward to the pedal.

The band has several points of adjustment to ensure as complete a circle as possible as close to the drum as possible without causing drag.

Next I would check all the rods for straightness and all the clevis pin holes and clevis pins for wear. The clevis pins can wear a big step in the pin and also the clevis hole itself can elongate quite badly so by the time all the play is taken up you have run out of pedal.

[cutdown]

The first 4 wheeled vehicle I owned had rod brakes all around.  I got those brakes working really well.  Thanks for the suggestions. I know what you mean. One of the first things I noticed when preparing to remove the diff was the 2 main brake rods were bent. As the brakes are unknown to me, I will be starting at the back and working forward. Will be an interesting exercise as I suspect the bands are not true to the drums. 

 

I meant to ask if the light trucks [ Graham Bros ] had 21 inch wheels

 

All the best from NZ

D

Edited November 18, 2021 by cutdown
new info (see edit history)

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck

my experience is with very early DB cars so I have nothing to offer regarding the trucks. DB or GB.

Looking at my cross rail you will see that the paint has been removed (carefully) as the stamping is very faint and the paint fills up the indentations. Best to use stripper.

 

[nearchoclatetown]

I'd have to look when it changed, but I THINK by the time this chassis was built the number was moved to over the shackle on the front right. 

[nearchoclatetown]

At serial number 761408  on 8-14-22 the serial number was moved from the cross member to the right front frame rail by the shackle. So you may want to look there?

[cutdown]

I had a look earlier this evening and thought I saw the impression of numbers between the shackle mount and the steering  box mount. I scraped away a thick coat of some sort of heavy primer that was under the black, to find the previous owner may have sandblasted the chassis and done a beautiful job of preparing and painting the chassis. Unfortunately, no evidence of a number.

I am happy to believe, the chassis plate I have with the vehicle is correct, and that it has an earlier engine and a later diff. The main thing is that I rebuild all the mechanical parts so the vehicle will run reliably for the rest of its life [ and mine ].

 

D

[cutdown]

I have finally decided that both engines are knackered and need a complete recondition. Will sort out tomorrow which outfit will do it.  Just deciding which to do. The most worn engine block  [ 20 thou taper on no 4 bore ] is in good order. The block with only 16 thou taper on no 4 bore has one of the rear main bearing studs starting to pull out.  I have got 20 thou o/size pistons.

 

I am curious about the comment in my workshop manual that mentions drilling the cam follower retaining bolts.  Can anyone show some light on that for me please?

[Minibago]

Perhaps this relates to drilling the bridging clamp stud for a split pin or lockwire to prevent the nut coming loose. We have had one example in the club where the nut undid, the follower body popped up and jammed, the end result was a hole in the block.

[cutdown]

I have just started cleaning the bearings and caps and have found someone has drilled and driven in pins to stop all the main bearing studs coming loose. I think I will discard this block and hope the more worn block will be good enough.  The original nuts on both engines [ mains and big ends ] had had the snot wound out of them to line up the split pin holes.   What a fuck up. No apologies for using good quality motor engineers language.

 

I hung both cranks, and the one out of the original engine didn't ring.  It has to be cracked.  looks like the decision making about what to use is becoming easier.  The original big end caps had had their dippers ground off so that puts them out.

 

MY PORTABLE BORING MACHINE HAS SUCKED A KUMARA, SO THAT'S GOING TO THE DUMP AS WELL.

 

Dereck

[RichBad]

14 minutes ago, cutdown said:

I have just started cleaning the bearings and caps and have found someone has drilled and driven in pins to stop all the main bearing studs coming loose. I think I will discard this block and hope the more worn block will be good enough.  The original nuts on both engines [ mains and big ends ] had had the snot wound out of them to line up the split pin holes.   What a fuck up. No apologies for using good quality motor engineers language.

 

I hung both cranks, and the one out of the original engine didn't ring.  It has to be cracked.  looks like the decision making about what to use is becoming easier.  The original big end caps had had their dippers ground off so that puts them out.

 

MY PORTABLE BORING MACHINE HAS SUCKED A KUMARA, SO THAT'S GOING TO THE DUMP AS WELL.

 

Dereck

The main bearing studs were pinned from new - all of mine were and I’ve seen it on 2 other blocks.

[cutdown]

That's interesting. I had best check the other block.  You are right. The difference is the one where it appeared to not take up the torque, the peg was sitting proud, rubbing up against the brass shell.  Might have to remove it and check it. Oh well. Just a little more work.

 

Many thanks RichBad

Edited December 5, 2021 by cutdown (see edit history)

[Mark Gregush]

I was going to pull down and overhaul this engine for my 1920, it is a bit closer to my build date, and found this, oh buggers;

[cutdown]

That doesn't look good.  Save the rest of it though. Hang your crank up and give it a tap,.  If it rings, its probably not cracked. If you just get a dull thunk sound, it is probably cracked. There has to be plenty of blocks around so biff it. One owner I know of has the bits from at least 10 cars in his farm shed,.

 

I have just sent an email to someone who does white metal bearings so progress is still going forward, if not slowly.Bit hard to see from the photos  but that peg is sticking out a wee bit. [ the round shiny spot ]  ( the oval spot is what looks like someone has hit it with something, and disrupted the surface.)