starter trouble

[texasjr]

In have a 41 Windsor that has developed a p  roblem the only way to get it started is to tap the starter with a hammer.  Had the starter sol rebuild the shop said is was gummed up but starter was clean and functioning.  The shop replaced the starter but said the battery wouldn't keep a charge and used a battery charger to start it.  Got it home and no start even with a battery charger before I take it back to the shop does anybody have any ideas?  And does anybody no where I could get a replacement/spare?

[hchris]

Have you tried another battery or used jumper leads to another battery  ?

[plymouthcranbrook]

http://parksidemotors.ca/how-does-a-hammer-fix-a-starter/

Below from Straight Dope Message Board:

 

Starter motor problems usually are indicated by the following symptom: Turn the key to the START position and you hear a loud click, or sometimes you hear nothing. The headlights are bright and don't dim when you turn the key to START, and everything else electrical seems to work fine. It could be a bad starter neutral switch or a bad key switch but about 99% of the time it's a bad starter or starter solenoid. Here is the procedure for checking out a starter motor and its solenoid.

Problems in a starter motor normally involve a "bad spot" on the commutator, the electrical section of the armature that contacts the brushes. They get dirty and worn down. The brushes sometimes wear out but not normally. Open circuits can occur in the armature or in stator windings. You could fix these problems but the normal procedure is to replace the starter with a rebuilt. If the starter motor armature just happens to stop on a "bad spot" the circuit is open and the starter won't turn. Sometimes you can "rock" the engine by hand (be careful - make sure the ignition switch is off) or in a standard transmission car you can put it in gear and "rock" the car by pushing it forward or backward a few inches - this can move the starter motor off the "bad spot" and get you on your way, but it's a crap shoot as to when it will happen again. Sometimes rapping the starter with a hammer can make temporary contact where the contact was flaky, but you can do more harm to the starter than good if ya hit it too hard!!

 

Easier to copy and paste than write it out. 

[trini]

The fact that that you have to knock the starter to work is an indication there is a short inside. If the starter is good it will start with a battery charger hooked up to the onboard  battery. Number 1, always check for clean ground battery wire first. It seems your starter guy did a poor job. Remove the starter and disassemble , wash the brush plate  and brushes clean with varsol and blow dry, wash the armature  and use a fine sand paper to sand the commutator smooth or better to machine in a lathe. Replace the brushes if worn too low or otherwise just dress them with sand paper.There will be two brushes riveted to the plate,  the bushing on the plate may be worn. check for excessive wear and replace. Check the bushing at the back of the armature for excessive wear and replace. The drive clutch assembly seldom goes bad.  Some solenoids can be taken apart ,washed and re assembled. If the terminals of the solenoid is worn (usually only one does)loosen the locknut and turn 180 degrees around to the good side. reverse the disc that contact the terminals.   Wash the field coil and check for damage insulator. USE ENGINE OIL OR WHITE GREASE FOR ASSEMBLY. After assembling use a wire hook and gently pull the brushes to make sure they move up and down without sticking.

[texasjr]

Thank you guys for the info the car (miss Daisy ) has a special place in my heart.  The repairs are under warranty so I think I will give the shop one more try.  Its the only starter/generator repair shop within 50 miles.  I personally am not comfortable taking the starter apart at this time.  I do appreciate the info and guidance thank you.

[texasjr]

I have read that you can use a 12 volt battery JUST to start her and then immediately remove the jumper cables anybody had any luck doing this with no damage?

[trini]

NO. I will not try that. Your car has electrical  gauges  powered  by 6 volts and is all tied in together. By using a 12 volt battery even briefly the gauges might damage. IT IS DIFFICULT ENOUGH TO FIND REPLACEMENT FOR SIX VOLTS  GAUGES. Six volt system has always been a problem, mostly battery cables and ground. Sometimes it might be helpful to just add a second ground cable from starter mounting bolt to frame. 

[texasjr]

thank you it already has the second ground cable and I just ordered a new cable from the batt to starter

[FLYER15015]

32 minutes ago, texasjr said:

thank you it already has the second ground cable and I just ordered a new cable from the batt to starter

Make sure your new ground cable, and your Batt to starter cable is AT LEAST 4 ought cable.

Readily available at any decent welding supply house. They also have the copper end fittings.

Ask me how I know..........

 

Mike in Colorado

[John_Mereness]

A lot of times the contact breaks or gets damaged on the main electrical connection via someones poor tightening in rebuild process or upon someone installing in the car. 

[texasjr]

not being familiar 6 volt positive grounds if I use the engine start feature on the battery charger would this do any damage to Miss Daisy?  Sorry for so many questions

[trini]

Most good battery charges have a 6 volts mode in addition to 12 volts with timers Choose the 6 volt mode even to fast charge the 6 volts battery. Red cable for positive post. (fat post) and black cable for  negative post .NO DAMAGE.

[avgwarhawk]

As the others stated, the starter requiring a tap of a hammer to make it work is a sure indication the starter has a bad spot.  I understand you have a shop "local" that you use.  Think about sending it off to a repair shop with good reviews from forum members.     

[certjeff1]

As a 3rd generation starter rebuilder with 36 years experience nothing makes me cringe more than the smack the starter with the hammer diagnostics. I will give you that extremely worn brushes or worn contacts in the switch as a possible issue depending upon where you smack the starter. But a dead spot in the armature cannot not and will not ever be picked up using this method of diagnostics. Remember the armature is suspended at each end by bushings and has the tension of brush springs to overcome so the amount of force you will need to strike the starter to create a shock wave to effect a dead spot or move the armature ever so slightly off the dead spot is off the charts. If you have a dead spot when the starter is cranking it will lope, meaning it will slow down and then speed up each time any of the 4 brushes hits the dead spot. Whenever I hold a class at my shop I show people what dead spots look like and how starters act with them. Usually they never smack a starter again. 

 

If your local shop has gone thru the starter and solenoid I would use a remote start button and separate battery and bypass the system and see if it does or does not work. If it does work then you can go after wiring issues. DO NOT use 12v to test these starters as they have a very unique solenoid and are very expensive on the NOS market. If it does not work and you take it back you will sound more knowledgeable about the system and it will give them less of an argument then if you tell them you simply smacked the starter. 

[trini]

Smacking the starter to  get it to operate  is usually the solenoid problem. Worn internals terminals. In the old days a temporary relief was to loosen the nut on the terminal and turn 180 degrees around . Low spots on comutator is not uncommon and must be cut on a lathe.

There is something we tend to forget . Especially on 6 volts starter with low current/voltage the heat generated melts the solder on the  terminals wherever there is solder joint. A common place is where the coil wire is soldered onto the comutator . Another area is the buildup ground brush dust causes shorts. 

[m-mman]

I dont want to steal the thread or confuse the OP but for the enjoyment of you tech people, here was my unusual starter problem:

 

The Car: 1926 Lincoln with combination starter-generator.  No solenoid, so you gotta push the pedal/button on the floor to mechanically move the starter gear into the flywheel and close the heavy cranking switch. 

 

The problem: Sometimes it cranks and sometimes you had to use the hand crank to move the engine a smidge before it would crank. (I suspected a dead spot on the armature) 

Solution: fix the broken wire (and circuit) to the generator(!) 

 

It seems the original design is that when the ignition is switched on, it sends power to the generator side and MOTORS the generator (causing the huge, dual commutator armature, to spin slowly) then when the pedal is pushed, the starter and flywheel gears mesh easily and it easily closes the heavy cranking circuit. Because the thing wasn't motoring, it wasn't always completely meshing gears, and would not consistently close the heavy starter circuit to crank. 

 

About the same situation as when you double clutch to get the transmission gears spinning before they mesh easily. 

Thanks Henry Leland . . . . 

[certjeff1]

Trini everything you mention as possible problems are true especially on old starters. Whether it is a solenoid problem or an internal starter motor problem.  If you are smacking the motor and not the solenoid how can you say is a solenoid problem and vice versa. You are not eliminating the wiring or solenoid activation, button or ignition switch. One of the most infamous jobs we got our hands on was a 1978 Corvette that had 9 starters from 3 different shops installed on it. Each one was replaced to fix the original problem. All 3 shops were smacking the starter as a test. We got the car here used our remote start button bypassing the system and made the starter work every time. After doing some voltage drop tests we found several crusty connections in both the positive and negative circuits causing the issue. If you want to smack the starter to try and get one more start to get your vehicle home rather then have it towed by some unknown tow service I get it. But don't make that your best most accurate test. 

 

M-MMan what you had with your Lincoln does not surprise me as Dyneto did a similar thing with their starter/generator combination units made for 1915 model cars such as Packard and Franklin. If you take power away from the starter field coils you lose the ability to charge even though  all 6 coils, 3 starter and 3 charge, are independent of each other.