1952 Chrysler Fluid Drive

[nickg112]

I have a 1952 Town and Country with a fluid drive and M6 transmission. It is not a torque fluid drive. It is just a fluid drive. The car has a 6 cylinder engine.

It drives well when starting out in drive. There seems to be no issues as long as I stay in drive.

I am doing the following adjustments and tests with the engine running but not driving the car. I am having trouble with getting the car in reverse or first gear (Low) without getting a loud grinding sound.  I adjust the clutch with the thread adjustment on the clutch lever.  I can adjust the clutch with the thread/lever adjustment so low gear does not grind when engaging but the clutch pedal sometimes will not release from the floor when pressed down. Reverse always grinds. regardless of setting. As I adjust by getting the lever to engage more, the clutch is harder to push but the clutch does will not completely disengage. I then cannot get the car to move in reverse. If I adjust the thread to less engage the clutch lever, The clutch pedal sticks to the floor, more grinding noise occurs but I can get the car to move in reverse. It now will also grind trying to go in first gear and the clutch pedal will stick to the floor.

Unless I am missing something in my manual, There is no additional adjustment in the fluid drive unit. The manual talks about removing the transmission and fluid drive unit for a bench adjustment.

 

I have changed the 10 weight oil (non detergent) in the trans and have not attempted to add oil directly to the fluid drive unit. It only takes about 3 pints total as the manual says. Is there a path for the 10 weight oil to go to the fluid drive unit from the transmission? Or do I need to add fluid to the fluid drive unit? 

 

Is there something else I can do before removing the trans and fluid drive?

 

Thank you for any advice.

Edited November 20, 2019 by nickg112 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Is your fluid drive matched up with an M6 semi auto transmission? The one with R, L, N, D on the shift column? You accelerate to a certain speed, lift your foot off the gas temporarily, then it auto shifts?

[nickg112]

Yes, it is matched up with an M6 auto transmission just as you described

[keithb7]

Have you seen this:

 

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/012B/cover.htm

 

I assume you have, as it indeed does state as a last resort to pull the tranny. What is your idle speed set at? If too high the torque could be transferring too much power to the tranny input shaft. When you attempt to put it in low range/reverse the gears are spinning and clashing? 

 

I took one of these trannys apart to learn how it works. I put this video together. There is not many moving parts in there. Low gear selection is moving a ring to lock a gear to a shaft. Reverse is sliding a gear to change direction of output. There is not much to cause grinding, which is why I am thinking high idle. You mentioned when fully depressing clutch you may not be completely disengaging the power thru the tranny. 

 

https://youtu.be/DtqjLNEOpqc

Edited November 20, 2019 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[c49er]

Grinding into reverse (a non synchro gear) means clutch is not releasing.

So....is the pressure plate pulling back away from the clutch disc .020-.050" ?

Is the clutch disc bent enough from improper trans install or removal causing input shaft drag..

Maybe the pilot bushings are dragging on the input shaft..called up.

Normally there should be 1" of pedal free play...lengthen the clutch fork rod just enough to get rid of the free play...if there is still grinding you need to pull the lower cast bell housing cover for more serious inspection. Fluids in the FD or trans won't affect releasing the clutch.

Hopefully the over center spring adjustment has not been changed from factory setting....somewhat hard to adjust correctly with out the Miller tool which is not available.

Edited November 20, 2019 by c49er (see edit history)

[nickg112]

Quote

 

Thanks to everyone for all of the help. I think I have my problem is solved. These are the three things that I did:

1) Adjusted clutch lever to put just a small amount of tension. I had to adjust several times until everything seemed correct

2) I adjusted the large spring on the clutch pedal. As I turned the adjusting screw counter clockwise, the clutch pedal stopped sticking to the floor. Again, several adjustment, a little at a time before I corrected the problem. No tool available to check factory setting.

At this point everything seemed good with clutch except reverse still had a grind issue.

3) I fixed reverse by lowering the RPMs to about 600 as suggested by keithb7. The explanation was great as I did not understand that the car running at fast idle would cause a problem with reverse gear. No grind at all now.

 

My car came out of a museum and has not been driven for 40 years. I have replaced all of the brakes, cleaned fuel system and did a little electrical as well as changed all fluids. I will be changing plugs, points, wires, etc,  next. Planning on detailing the car this weekend. Paint is all original and the car is rust free. I will post a few photos next week.

 

I have only driven the car in the parking lot and while the clutch is working and I can shift into low, drive and reverse, I have not had the opportunity to drive the car on the road to check if Low 1st to 2nd or Drive 3rd to 4th works properly by lifting foot off accelerator pedal. Weather permitting, I will try this weekend.

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

[keithb7]

Glad you got it all sorted out.  Please do post some pics. We’d like to see it.

 

Did you change your brake flex lines? Even after all brake work is done always pay attention to your brake fluid level in the master cylinder. Keep checking the level to look for any loss.  

[Rusty_OToole]

Idle speed should be 400 or 450 RPM. It seems impossibly slow by today's standards but that is what it is supposed to be. If the engine is in good tune it will idle down as smooth as a turbine and pull away smoothly in any gear.

 

Spongy motor mounts can also throw off the clutch adjustment by allowing the engine/trans to move around.

[keithb7]

Agree on the low idle. A well tuned, warmed up old Mopar flathead is a wonderfully smooth engine. After a winter hiatus, every spring it takes me a while to get used to it. I think I’ve stalled the engine when I pull up to a street light or stop sign. 

[nickg112]

On 11/20/2019 at 9:44 PM, keithb7 said:

Glad you got it all sorted out.  Please do post some pics. We’d like to see it.

 

Did you change your brake flex lines? Even after all brake work is done always pay attention to your brake fluid level in the master cylinder. Keep checking the level to look for any loss.  

Yes I did change the lines. Did a complete brake job

 

[nickg112]

[r1lark]

Good looking car Nick!! Thanks for the pics. The late '40s/early '50s MoPars seem to be underappreciated in the old car hobby, but they are rock solid cars with superb engineering in my opinion. 

 

Enjoy!

[c49er]

That is one nice Chrysler Windsor  wagon...most are pretty rusty and had a rough life.

Nice to finally see a real good original one!

[Spinneyhill]

Normally that car would not be my cup of tea - too "modern" - but that one looks very nice.

 

May I also congratulate you on your methodical documentation of what you did and the results. I wish more of us were that clear in our thinking and expression. Well done!

[Dosmo]

The color on this one reminds me of one that was advertised for sale back in the early 1990s.  However, it was advertised as a Chrysler Imperial T&C wagon on the 131.5" wheelbase.  Being pretty new to the antique car hobby, we naively looked at and purchased the car.  We noticed that the short moldings on the doors did not continue onto the front fenders, but we dismissed this as some sort of oversight by a previous owner.

 

After dragging the car home, we bought a copy of the Standard Catalog of American automobiles.  Looking at the production ID number on the driver's door frame and comparing it to the ones in the book, we discovered that the ID number placed it in the Windsor series.  Someone had apparently taken a Windsor station wagon body and mounted it on a long wheelbase Imperial frame, using the Imperial's front sheet metal.

 

It was a pretty neat job, though.  Had someone taken the time to install some front fender moldings, there would have been no visual hint to the casual observer that the car was anything other than what it appeared to be.  Even at that, it still fooled a couple of greenhorns, ha ha.

 

I'm a big fan of these wagons.  This one is very appealing.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Dosmo (see edit history)

[c49er]

The 1951 131" WB NewYorker wagon is an extremely low production wagon of the 1951-1952 models. 251 were produced..it used the heavy suspension components and brakes/booster with the 331 Hemi. I have only seen one. The front end is six inches longer than the Windsor or Saratoga 125" WB cars and has more ornate die cast grille and front end chrome.

The 1951-52 Windsor and Saratoga wagons are basically the same car on a 125" WB...not trimmed out quite as nice as the top of the line NewYorker wagon only built in 51.

The Saratoga wagon had the 331 hemi ..the Windsor had the 251 or 265 flathead six. The 265 started in 1952.

1967 of the Windsors and 1967 Saratogas supposedly were made in 1951-52 model years (70 Years of Chrysler). Front ends and trim is the same on the Windsor/Saratoga cars. The Saratoga having more performance than the Windsor

No Imperial station wagons were ever produced in the 1951-52 model years.

There is a or was a Windsor wagon just south of Seattle I used to see and the NewYorker wagon was in Rainier Valley in Seattle back in the late 70's. Beige was the color of both.

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by c49er (see edit history)

[nickg112]

23 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Normally that car would not be my cup of tea - too "modern" - but that one looks very nice.

 

May I also congratulate you on your methodical documentation of what you did and the results. I wish more of us were that clear in our thinking and expression. Well done!

I love the older cars also. Everything is such a challenge. I appreciate your comment about documentation. Sometimes it is difficult to explain the problem and it takes time. If someone is going to going to help, they need to understand the problem. Everyone was very helpful. I learned a lot on this issue as well as the brakes. Thank you

[Dosmo]

19 hours ago, c49er said:

The 1951 131" WB NewYorker wagon is an extremely low production wagon of the 1951-1952 models. 251 were produced..it used the heavy suspension components and brakes/booster with the 331 Hemi. I have only seen one. The front end is six inches longer than the Windsor or Saratoga 125" WB cars and has more ornate die cast grille and front end chrome.

 

 

Here is one that my uncle purchased from the Fresno, CA area in the early 1990s.  He kept it for several years with the intention of restoring it, but, he finally sold it 2-3 years ago.