Vintman Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Hi Folks, Had an interesting enquiry from a gentleman whose grandfather is shown driving a car in Taipei, Taiwan, most likely around 1915-25. Looks American. We have had a thorough search for this car and contacted Nzcarnerd who recons it is a ca 1917-18 Paige Linwood Tourer. While I would normally bow down to NZ on American cars, this one just does not seem to add up in some vital areas as a Paige. Hence we would all be most grateful to anybody who can put us out of our misery. Kind Regards Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) Looks like about a 1916 Oakland, to me except for the slanted hood louvers. Edited July 16, 2019 by keiser31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) Yeah the hood louvers look like 1921 Lorraine. I think one key is the wheel wedge. If someone can positively ID one of those it may help us look it up in catalogs. To me the wheel wedge looks like a Firestone C-39 according to my catalog but I'm not having any luck matching up the correct vehicle. Note the padding (leather?) on top of the doors also... Edited July 16, 2019 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, keiser31 said: Looks like about a 1916 Oakland, to me except for the slanted hood louvers. Yes, Oakland was my first thought when I looked at the hubcaps but nothing else matched, although I think a date of about 1916 is correct, or maybe 1917-18 because of the sloping windshield. Treadless white tyres are another clue. I wondered if it might be something more obscure from the GM stable because Buick used similar hubcaps. Paige and Pathfinder were two that used a radiator like that. Pathfinders were big cars in that era. I reckon the wheelbase of this car is less than 120". At a guess those are 32 x 4 tyres. In retrospect the position of the radiator cap is not right for Paige Linwood - the smaller of their two touring cars - nor is the shape of the forward end of the front fenders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Here is a 1916 Oakland.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) Here is the 1917 or 18 Paige.... Edited July 16, 2019 by keiser31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Vintman said: ... Nzcarnerd who recons it is a ca 1917-18 Paige Linwood Tourer. While I would normally bow down to NZ on American cars, this one just does not seem to add up in some vital areas as a Paige... The more I look, the more similarities I see between the OP's pic and the best illustration I can find of a Paige Linwood Tourer (which is admittedly an artist's catalog illustration). Wheels look very close: width of felloe, six rim clamps, hubs match. Hubcaps did trouble me, as I saw a lot of hubcap variance in the Paige pics I searched up but finally found very similar caps on a couple of cars. Sheetmetal looks to be a close match: fender contours, width of the cowl, slanted hood louvers. Hood latch is the same style, although not in the same position relative the louvers. Radiator neck looks the same. Windshield angle matches. Size and position of the folded top is a match as well. Note also that front seat back is taller than the body sides in both images. Vintman, what differences between the unknown car and the Paige Linwood trouble you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Windshield stanchion mounting is different Number of louvers is different. Headlights are mounted at a different height. No emblem on hood side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Yes, some similarities but more differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintman Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 Hi Folks. Many thanks for all your thoughts. A surprisingly difficult one. In answer to gwells' question as to what is troubling me, we at the Surrey Vintage Vehicle Society have provided an international service in car recognition for nearly 20 years and have had a number of thousands of identifications on our Help Pages. Somehow after a while one gets the ’feel’ of being spot-on, or way-off. I don’t have a good feeling about this being a Paige Linwood. Details like the number of louvers, the position of the louvers, louvers being higher than the mudguards, mudguards type and having rivets for mounting , the rad filler cap being forward on the radiator headder, headlamps being below the top of radiator, the type of headlamp, the round cover on the skirting above the running board, leather caps to the doors, different windscreen mounting, different windscreen, etc etc... With so many doubts, not something we could put our name to. Hence we need expert help. Best most positive solution is a photo that nails it !! Current SVVS Help page 144 is at http://www.svvs.org/help144.shtml Regards Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwells Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Can't argue with a gut feeling, but I am consoled in knowing that nzcarnerd felt the same as I do. Again, I emphasize that the best image I could find to compare is a catalog illustration; these are notoriously inaccurate and could explain the differences you and others have noted. Simply could not locate an actual photo to compare. Thanks for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.Hosono Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Thank you very much for all your input. This is very exciting for me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 My first thought (hope?) was Paige when I first glanced at the photo. But that was because I have had some interest in Paige automobiles for a long time. And, It does closely resemble the smaller Paige automobiles of 1916/'17. However, most Paige cars used a distinctive hubcap from 1916 through 1925. Earlier ones were cast brass, later ones formed aluminum, but they all looked pretty similar. Nearly all had the Paige name script in a sort of diamond shape (on the hex for the hubcap wrench), with a large donut (ring?) shape behind it. Look at the picture posted by Keiser31. Note also, that both the front and rear hubcaps are the same! The OP photo car has different hubcaps front and rear, and neither of them look like the Paige hubcap. Looking at the full size image (right click on the photo, open in new tab), the detail isn't quite good enough, but it looks to me that the front hubcap might read "Oakland". That would be my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagefinds Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Definitely some similarities to a Premier but would just about have to be 1917 which I haven't located a picture of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul55 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 If you search this forum for "1920 Premier" you will find a restoration thread that includes photos of other year Premiers including 1916. I do not think the car above is Premier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 On 7/18/2019 at 8:39 PM, wayne sheldon said: My first thought (hope?) was Paige when I first glanced at the photo. But that was because I have had some interest in Paige automobiles for a long time. And, It does closely resemble the smaller Paige automobiles of 1916/'17. However, most Paige cars used a distinctive hubcap from 1916 through 1925. Earlier ones were cast brass, later ones formed aluminum, but they all looked pretty similar. Nearly all had the Paige name script in a sort of diamond shape (on the hex for the hubcap wrench), with a large donut (ring?) shape behind it. Look at the picture posted by Keiser31. Note also, that both the front and rear hubcaps are the same! The OP photo car has different hubcaps front and rear, and neither of them look like the Paige hubcap. Looking at the full size image (right click on the photo, open in new tab), the detail isn't quite good enough, but it looks to me that the front hubcap might read "Oakland". That would be my guess. But there isn't an Oakland that matches it. The photo that Keiser posted is the big V8 and the mystery car is not that big. The new small six from 1916 in always had a flat front radiator. The previous medium size four cylinder model, which over lapped with the new six by a short time as far as I know, did have a vee radiator, but always had vertical louvres. Both the four and later sixes had relatively shallow radiators. The radiator on the mystery car is taller. This is a four cylinder Oakland from 1915. I have the remnants of one of these radiators in my shed. I will try to find it. Another feature of these Oaklands is that the running boards are firmly connected to the chassis to give it more strength. Another point I have noticed with this car is the difference in the relative positions of the front seat and the door edges to the mystery car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.Hosono Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 On 7/16/2019 at 5:03 PM, nzcarnerd said: hello, I have rescanned the photo and expanded the hubcap region to the highest resolution possible. If this helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 That is a Grant hubcap. Smaller G, R, N and T with the larger A in the center. The A tails go under the GR and the NT. Just like on the radiator emblem. I have a photo of the Grant cap, but my computer hard drive with photos is down at the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 The Grant Six emblem... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Well, Grant looks like a good possibility. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 There is a website devoted to the Grant car. I see nothing there that looks like the Taiwan car. http://www.geocities.ws/grantmotor/index-2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 This restored Grant is in New Zealand. The door hinges may be modern ones. No resemblance to the Taiwan car. The restorer of the car - Barrie Grant - has since passed away. He did some good work in his lifetime, including what was at the time the only Cadillac V-16 in NZ. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 The Grant hub cap... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunO Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 On 7/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, S.Hosono said: I’ve noted that there are six bolts on the hub which matches the Linwood. Also, the windscreen has two hinges on the Linwood photo that also matches the Taiwan car and the open windshields. One thing that puzzles me is the right hand drive. Did they have right hand drive American cars in 1917? Also, there is a round thingy (dunno what it is) at the base between the front and back doors that also matches the Taiwan vehicle with the photo of the Linwood from Wikipedia. Could the difference in number of louvres be a model year variation? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Most American cars had right hand drive in the early years. The Ford T of 1908 was the first mass-produced car to go to left hand drive and most others followed in the next few years. A few stayed with right hand drive - Stutz until after 1920. Those American makers who wanted export sales would build the cars the markets wanted and right hand drive came into that. Here in New Zealand there was a large range of American models with right hand drive in the teens and twenties. The only left hand drive cars I have seen photos of here in NZ were Packard Twin Sixes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariejan NL Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) JunO showed the 1917 Grant model, however the Taiwan car is the 1918 model, the Grant model G standard tourer. Attached an image of this model, which can be found in the 1918 Handbook of Automobiles as well as in the Philadelphia Library Archive (https://libwww.freelibrary.org/digital/item/53779). A difference with the 1917 model is the presence of the vizors as well as the flat curve in the top line of the hood. Neither the 1917 and 1919 models have vizors, and moreover these have straight hood top lines. Other details are similar to the 1918 model like the round lid above the running board and the leather protection on top of the door, the 10 tilted louvres, the hood bracket in the correct location, and more. Edited July 22, 2019 by Ariejan NL (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintman Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 Hi All, Thanks for all your hard work. Would advise that a well-known UK automobile historian and ex-member of the VCC International Dating Committee, Bryan Goodman, had died recently and a Memorial Service was held for him at his local church. This resulted in many well known UK and overseas veteran/vintage car specialist getting together and renewing old acquaintances. For us in the SVVS, of which Bryan was also a Member, it meant that a number of regular SVVS Help Page Experts from a number of countries had an opportunity to meet in person. Ariejan Bos from Holland spent a few days with us and went through some of our existing ‘unidentified’ photos. Although he is mainly an expert on obscure Veteran Cars, he had a look at this photo and we had a pleasant few hours trying to pull it to bits to identify the pointers. A couple of hours later we came to a definite conclusion that this is a ca. 1918 Grant Model G Standard Touring. It ticked ALL the boxes - no doubts!! And it seems to agree happily with all the work you folks had been doing in the meantime. MANY THANKS. Kind regards, Vintman (UK) www.svvs.org 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.Hosono Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 My deepest condolences goes to Mr. Bryan Goodman. Thank you so much everyone and especially to the admin Vintman for helping solve the mystery! It was truly a delight to see the lively discussion among the members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomichan530 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Dear all, It was extremely satisfying to see the collective knowledge base of experts come together to solve this nagging mystery... Thank you for the experience. Sincerely, A follower 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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