1923 Model 23-4-35 Buick Restoration Australia

[AussieBuick]

Hi Forum Members,

After some 30 years in storage and the never ending conflict of insufficient time, money and space I have found much to my surprise  that they don't improve

with the passage of time but after reading some a few posts lately I decided set a restoration deadline of 2023 and have 100th birthday for the old girl.

 

The car  as delivered in 1986 ( pre digital camera ) 

 

 

 

 

Engine Number 1069667 Serial Number 75765  local body (no makers plate) US chassis export assembled locally in Australia. Or so we believe. 

 

I'll keep you posted on progress or lack of !!

 

Kind Regards

 

Norm

[ROD W]

Norm, 

 Your not wrong,  time and money are always a problem. But its good to see that restoration is starting.  Where are you located.

Rod

[Hubert_25-25]

Norm, 

   Welcome.  I have a 1925-25 (Standard Touring).  I have full size wood patterns of almost all of the wood for your car.  The 23-35 became the 25-25, but it is still a different car.  What I can send you will work as guidance and get you in the ballpark.  I see you have a challenge there, but if you are willing to put the time in, there is plenty of knowledge here to get you into a driving car.  

Hugh 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[AussieBuick]

11 hours ago, ROD W said:

Norm, 

 Your not wrong,  time and money are always a problem. But its good to see that restoration is starting.  Where are you located.

Rod

Hi  Rod,

 

New South Wales, north  of Tamworth 

 

You ? 

 

Norm

 

[Leif Holmberg]

Hi down there!

I think your car are made in Canada just becuse of the Serial Number 75765,if looking at USA built Buicks they have 6 numbers insted of 5 numbers on the serial plate those years.

Leif in Sweden.

[AussieBuick]

12 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Norm, 

   Welcome.  I have a 1925-25 (Standard Touring).  I have full size wood patterns of almost all of the wood for your car.  The 23-35 became the 25-25.  I would think it would fit with little if any modifications.  I see you have a challenge there, but if you are willing to put the time in, there is plenty of knowledge here to get you into a driving car.  

Hugh 

Hugh,

Thankyou for the reply and welcome, I would never have thought the two models  were that similar. On my to do list  is a large work bench / table  to build the body on ,   My thinking it will be easier  than trying to do the job directly on the chassis.  I believe I have all the iron brackets and a few images I've  sourced  from blogs and postings of inprogress restorations  but no images of a complete bare frame. Restored cars  don't show  the bare bones so to speak.  Do you have images of the wooden parts ?

Regards

Norm

 

 

 

[AussieBuick]

44 minutes ago, Leif Holmberg said:

Hi down there!

I think your car are made in Canada just becuse of the Serial Number 75765,if looking at USA built Buicks they have 6 numbers insted of 5 numbers on the serial plate those years.

Leif in Sweden.

Hi Leif,

 

I was as hoping someone  would  have that detail, Thankyou .  

 

Norm

 

 

 

 

[dibarlaw]

Norm.

 Here is a body without the  sheet metal panels. I believe according to the part# on one of the cowl brackets it is for a 1923-45. But you can see the overall arrangement of the parts.

[ROD W]

And here,s another  bare frame for you.   It isn,t a 23  but the construction is the same for all the four door tourers.  I like to work on a flat bench rather than building on the chassis.  Start with the main chassis rails and work up from there. I,m in Bundaberg,  but I have some land at Kempsey and head down the New England  every so often.

Edited August 28, 2018 by ROD W (see edit history)

[AussieBuick]

On 29 August 2018 at 4:08 AM, dibarlaw said:

Norm.

 Here is a body without the  sheet metal panels. I believe according to the part# on one of the cowl brackets it is for a 1923-45. But you can see the overall arrangement of the parts.

 

Larry 

Thanks for the images it all helps

 

Norm

[AussieBuick]

On 29 August 2018 at 4:13 AM, ROD W said:

And here,s another  bare frame for you.   It isn,t a 23  but the construction is the same for all the four door tourers.  I like to work on a flat bench rather than building on the chassis.  Start with the main chassis rails and work up from there. I,m in Bundaberg,  but I have some land at Kempsey and head down the New England  every so often.

 

Hi Rod,

 

Thanks for  the photos ,  if your heading past I can put my hands on a cold beer without no much drama !

 

Norm

[1939_Buick]

On 8/29/2018 at 2:28 AM, AussieBuick said:

Hi  Rod,

New South Wales, north  of Tamworth 

You ? 

Norm

Have you joined the Buick Club of NSW?  https://buickclub.org.au/

Each state has a separate independent Buick club.

The combined all state 2013-14 Buick Australia register lists 7 x 1923 and 21 x 1924 and 27 x 1925 (all model series)

 

An Australian built body may be very different to those from USA or Canada

 

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[AussieBuick]

17 hours ago, 1939_Buick said:

Have you joined the Buick Club of NSW?  https://buickclub.org.au/

Each state has a separate independent Buick club.

The combined all state 2013-14 Buick Australia register lists 7 x 1923 and 21 x 1924 and 27 x 1925 (all model series)

 

An Australian built body may be very different to those from USA or Canada

 

 

Yes , I have rejoined. There were quite a few body builders in Aus in the early 20s . Largest was Holden but it was financial trouble during depression  and was brought out by GM but retained the Holden name.  It ceased local car production  last year as did Toyota.

In 1923 Holden produced some 11,000 bodies for various makes. In 1924 it became the sole  body builder for GM making 11,000  for them and another 11,000  for othe manufacturors .  Most imports of the time were CKN one would expect this also included body panels. But local customers could order bodies to their requirements.

 

Kind regards

Norm

[AussieBuick]

Chassis Restoration.

Can anyone confirm the original paint finish ? I am surmising gloss to match any exposed frame to the sheet metal.

Regards

Norm

[Hubert_25-25]

I like to paint everything chassis related "chassis black" which is a semi gloss.   The easiest way I have been able to duplicate this is to use #99 black.  If you use a base clear system, what you do is that you do not clear coat it.  It is not flat, and it is not heavy gloss like the fenders.  The high gloss comes from the clear coat.  They would have rubbed out the fenders for a glossy look, but the frame would have been left " as brushed" or as sprayed, so a slightly less glossy appearance.  

Edited September 11, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[AussieBuick]

Thanks Hugh, I remember reading an article on how Ford painted Model T bodies, the picture showed the painter using what could be described as a garden spray,

evidently they poured 11 gallons of paint over each body of which 1 gallon stuck !

 

[AussieBuick]

Minus the sheet metal!!

 

[ROD W]

Norm,   Do have any of the original wood for the body.  for patterns.  The chassis and running gear look in very good condition.  Are you planning on leaving in original condition and just refurbishing or a full strip down.

[AussieBuick]

13 hours ago, ROD W said:

Norm,   Do have any of the original wood for the body.  for patterns.  The chassis and running gear look in very good condition.  Are you planning on leaving in original condition and just refurbishing or a full strip down.

Hi Rod,

The car was recovered off a farm and had been uted at some stage.  Apart from a front door all  the original timber was long gone, rear doors and centre pillars also missing when I got the car.! Given its farm use  it will need a full strip down and everything checked and refurbished.  I have collected over the years many mechanical parts but have never been able to locate anyone who saved replaced timber frame pices  or a parts car with woodwork intact.  It makes a more interesting restoration ?  Kind regards Norm

 

 

 

 

[RatFink255]

Norm,

Welcome to the crowd. Hats off ? to you for getting started. All I can say is I have been here on the form for a short time getting started on my 1922 Model 35 and the help, advise and information is just absolutely great. Everyone helps where they can and will always give you moral support to help keep going. It can be a bit overwhelming at times trying to figure out what direction to go first. Hugh gave me some good advise when I first got going and that was pick one to start with either body or frame and engine and you will see more progress develop fast as time goes. You will then feel as if your making progress. Jumping back and forth from one to the other it feels like your not going anywhere fast. She will look good when your done good luck and I look forward to seeing your progress as time moves forward.  

Brice 

 

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Norm

I am currently working on wood pattern for my 25-45.  First photo shows progress I have made so far.  Using dimensions taken at the upper & lower door openings from another 25-45, I made wood supports to hold the sheetmetal in place in order to trace the lower footprint for the sills.  Once I get all the wood properly fitted using softwood, then I will use it as pattern and remake everything from hardwood.

 

kevin

 

 

[AussieBuick]

Hi Kevin,

Great work ,  the forum is a great source of "how to" information  for skills seldom seen these days.

I look forward  to follow your construction journey  thanks for the post.  What hardwood will you be using ?

Regards

Norm

 

 

 

 

 

[ROD W]

Norm

When you start to do the wood,  I like to set the body up on a 2.4 x 1.2 m  sheet of ply.  The shape of the main body rails can be drawn and the location of the door posts and centre posts can be marked in.  This shape can then be cut out as a pattern for your chassis rails.   RatFink   has a 22-35 which would have the same body as your  23-35,   so he may be able to give you the top and bottom,  body widths at the front of  the tub,  the centre posts and the cowl.   You can see how Kevin ( Oregon Desert )  has set up the body of his car with no wood.   I run lengths of flat steel from the tub to the cowl to get a nice curve and this also holds doors or wood, temporarily in place.   You can use  threaded rod  to hold these at the correct width across the body.  You can see how Kevin has used timber across the top of his centre  pillars to hold the body at the correct width.When the body is in place I cut patterns out of ply  to the shape of the curve of the body.

Edited September 16, 2018 by ROD W (see edit history)

[AussieBuick]

Hi Rod,  thanks for the tips in your last post very handy.  What is your preferred body frame timber?  Norm

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Norm, 

      I believe most of the wood body frame was Ash.  Oak is hard to drill thru and can splinter.  I know Morgan made all their body frames from Ash.   Hugh

[ROD W]

Norm,   American Ash is a beautiful  timber to work with,  but you might find it hard to get and expensive.  You can use,   Tassie Oak or Vic Ash  which are neither  an oak or an ash  but an Aussi  eucalypt.   Don,t use one of the local  hardwoods such as Spotted Gum,  they are too hard and too difficult to work with.  I,m using  Merbau on my 25-55.  This is a New Guinea  timber,  Nice to work with and I can get it at the local timber yard.  It does tend to split a bit on shorter cross grain sections but I laminate most pieces anyway which prevents splitting,  and the place I get my timber  usually has  already laminated timber in stock,  which is great for those small  shapped pieces.  I glue up all my shorter pieces,  ensure good overlaps. 

[AussieBuick]

Thanks Rod I think the local Bunnings stocks it as well.   I met up with an old retired coach builder in 1980 most of his wrk was with  Queensland Maple and Coachwood  when in short supply they used straight grain Oregon.  Interestly he said they never used glue as frame needed to flex. No doubt due to the poor state of the roads. 

[ROD W]

That,s right.   The chassis flexes.  The body is bolted to the chassis.  There needs to be a some  give in the body.  There are metal brackets giving support to the wooden frame  in a number of places,  which I feel are better than  gluing joints.

[Hubert_25-25]

For those of you that have never looked at how your Buick flexes.   Jack the car up under the very middle of the front cross member that supports the front wheels.  Then push down on one front wheel at the hubcap and you will see a lot of frame twist.  That big plate of steel at the back of the frame will stay level with axle.  At the front, one side of the frame will drop down, and the other side of the frame will raise by an equal amount. 

 

The main wood pieces of the frame that are held with nails around the exterior of the bottom of the body were all "screwed and glued" together on my 1925-25.  That would be the perimeter wood in this photo.   I do not believe that the cross members were glued.  Hugh

Edited September 17, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[AussieBuick]

Thanks Hugh ,  I was a bit hesitant about mentioning the no glue in case it stirred some debate .  Our timber these days is cut from less mature (smaller diameter) trees so there would be a need to

laminate and join pieces to get the required profile/size at a reasonable cost.

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Norm, 

    That is a separate issue.  I wanted to let you know that some of the entire pieces once fabricated are glued and screwed together.  The 2 long sill boards are actually made from 3 pieces each.  They are slid together and glued.  (Use waterproof Epoxy these days).  

This is the front of the original sill on my car.  These sills are about 5 or 6 feet long.  There is a double tongue and groove that holds the pieces together.  It is not like flooring tongue and groove with a carve out on one side and a raise on the other.  These grooves are actually V shaped to lock the parts together.  Now the glue really does all the work.      Hugh

 

[AussieBuick]

Thanks Hugh, I hadnt noticed the grooves before,  yours is the only frame I Ve  seen disasembled  . I think my most challenging issue will be the outside curve  the only reference points I have are the cowl,  front door and a rear tub in poor shape. Also rust mark on the valance panel .  

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Norm, 

     You have access to my wood drawings.  I would start with having a full size paper set made at your local office supply.  Most but not all are 24" x 36" size.  You could even just print a set on 11 x 17" for free on someone's large printer.  I would then make all of the wood cross members.    For the sills, you could make temporary ones out of pine.  Make the inside side of the wood original like mine.  Make the outside "narrow" and use a piece of heavy card stock to match the profile of the sheetmetal.  Set the cardboard on the floor and put the sheetmetal on top of it.  Scribe along the inside of the metal flange that the nails go in.   When you build the wood frame, you should be able to set this inside the sheetmetal and get a good match.  Hugh   

 

[Oregon Desert model 45]

Norm

You can still work around a few missing body pieces up to a point.

A good place to get a reference point from the rear tub for initial sill layout is the inside step of the door jamb on a complete car. A trammel can reach into this crevice, locked into position, then removed for easy straight line measurement. see photo #1

I made a wall chart with all door opening dimensions, and often re-check them again after some wood part has been disassembled.
Sheetmetal Lower door sills will provide the correct spacing for door openings, so if these are missing you will need to get these dimensions from another car and make some temporary spacer to maintain proper distances.  (photo #2, red arrow)  These can be replicated by a sheetmetal shop.

As you progress, there is a constant need to disassemble something, trim a little off here or there, then reassemble, and having a solid spacer in place helps everything go back together in its proper place.  Also mark centerlines on the cross sills or other temporary cross pieces to help get things lined up correctly.

Another clue to help get parts located are the 4 steel brackets with body to frame bolts. The forward pair are attached to the cowl firewall, rear pair are just behind the rear door. Transfer the frame to body bolt spacing to your work surface and use that to assist in spacing cowl & tub to each other.

The cowl firewall to frame brackets are missing on my car.  I transferred the rear body bolt spacing from the frame to the cross sill, bolted the 2 rear brackets to the sill (photo #3, bolts circled in red) which is the only reference point to frame in forward/aft direction that was available. I set the partial sill assembly on the frame to align and transfer the remainder of body to frame bolt holes.
Then  I aligned the rear tub door opening about 1/2" forward of the steel bracket. (photo #4, yellow arrows).  There are about 5 tabs which must be wrapped over the curved wood piece, and 1/2" seems just about right.  The sheetmetal lower door sills and center pillar provided the spacing from rear door opening to the cowl. 

After the rear sill extensions were attached, I put the full sill assembly back on the frame to get rear sills aligned and transfer the rear body to frame bolt holes.  photo #5

 

Kevin

 

[AussieBuick]

Hugh , Kevin 

Thanks this is great advice / info,  this will save me much trial and error.  Norm 

[ROD W]

Norm,  Here,s a 23   on Gumtree.  Located in Bundaberg.  Got the tub and back doors.  Unfortunately doesn,t  look like any wood.  Its always good to have spares.  Can deliver for cost of fuel if your interested.

[AussieBuick]

Rod W , What a find. Don't know how I missed it must have fat fingers.  Thankyou for passing it on to me. I have emailed the seller for more pictures.

Kind Regards   Norm

[AussieBuick]

Rod W,

What do you make of the plate on the left hand side of the dash, ?     Norm  

Not seen this before ..

 

  ?

 

[ROD W]

Norm,  I would say its the agents plate.   The left side of the dash is where they usually attached them.  My 25 was a South Aust  car,   so Eyes & Crowle  were the Agents.  That car is close to me,  so I,ll go around and have a look

[AussieBuick]