American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[edinmass]

“Unborn calf hide” was common in Fleetwood bodied cars before they were bought by GM. 

Edited April 14 by edinmass (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

I can say this thread offers quite an education on these cars. Interesting read and thanks to the contributors. 

[motoringicons]

Here's a great one that will be auctioned on Sunday. I remember seeing this car and it was a wonderful car. It was shown at Preservation at Pebble Beach.  I think it was Mark Smith's car? 

 

1933 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Riviera Town Car for Sale at Auction - Mecum Auctions

Edited May 8 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[Keith Ward]

It looks like a very desirable car, I hope it finds a loving home with somebody who wants it for the joy it brings rather than the value but I guess that is unavoidable.

I thought Brewster had closed their doors by 1933, I have a liquidation auction catalogue for Brewster somewhere, I will have to dig it out

[John Bloom]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:42 PM, motoringicons said:

Here's a great one that will be auctioned on Sunday. I remember seeing this car and it was a wonderful car. It was shown at Preservation at Pebble Beach.  I think it was Mark Smith's car? 

 

1933 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Riviera Town Car for Sale at Auction - Mecum Auctions

 

On 5/9/2024 at 1:37 PM, Keith Ward said:

It looks like a very desirable car, I hope it finds a loving home with somebody who wants it for the joy it brings rather than the value but I guess that is unavoidable.

I thought Brewster had closed their doors by 1933, I have a liquidation auction catalogue for Brewster somewhere, I will have to dig it out

GZ and Keith 

 

that is quite a car. I wish I could be a player for it, wrong time for me. I have stared at this example many times as my favorite town car against which all others are measured. RR along with coachbuilder nailed it. 

[alsancle]

On 5/8/2024 at 2:42 PM, motoringicons said:

Here's a great one that will be auctioned on Sunday. I remember seeing this car and it was a wonderful car. It was shown at Preservation at Pebble Beach.  I think it was Mark Smith's car? 

 

1933 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Riviera Town Car for Sale at Auction - Mecum Auctions

 

[edinmass]

I watched the car sell at auction last year………hammer was just over 200k. Wonderful car……..

[Milburn Drysdale]

I think we all agree it’s an incredibly cool car with great lines. My question is why is it up for sale so soon? Buyers remorse? 

[John Bloom]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

I watched the car sell at auction last year………hammer was just over 200k. Wonderful car……..

Ed, I frequently think about cars as if they were alive and had a personality. That town car at $200,000 has the Moxie to pull onto a pristine lawn next to a car that might sell for 10 times the price, and when they’re next to each other, cause the $2 million car to wilt and defer to that Rolls-Royce. 
 

everything about its proportions looks perfect to me. 

 

let me go look under my couch cushions…..

 

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, Milburn Drysdale said:

I think we all agree it’s an incredibly cool car with great lines. My question is why is it up for sale so soon? Buyers remorse? 

 

Can be many reasons.   It was bought as a bargain, it was bought to flip, owner moved on, etc.

[prewarnut]

P. Kumar has a Regent Conv Coupe for sale (with Landau arms reversed). 

 

 

[Kadee]

Regent (S460MR) when sold by Bonhams in June2018 :

 

Same car, for sale with Kumar (Gullwing) now :

[alsancle]

This car was owned by a forum member. I’m on my phone, but when I’m in front of my computer, I will link to his for sale ad. Since he owned the car, it has been painted, and the interior has been updated. Personally, I think the car should not have been touched.

[prewarnut]

The red seems a little bright although the sunlight may magnify that. To remove the garnish mouldings and not replace is cruel and unjust punishment. I wonder if this was just a re-dye job (the slight asymmetric front seat pleats seem to match in before and after photos...). Still a lot of work at the offer price to again reverse....

Edited May 13 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[alsancle]

When Peter was selling it:

 

 

[prewarnut]

I remember his posts, including that thread. Thank you. It looks like the garnish moulding is two pieces on the door and one framing the dash. These could be remade but cutting out the inlay with an X-acto knife (and not cutting oneself) would take all year - for one side! I sure hope someone stored them but I suppose they are going to be "reworn" on another car out there.

[metalbender]

they sure muckedup the interior on that one.

[BobinVirginia]

I know absolutely nothing about Rolls. However, this car seen at the Greenbrier here. Had an unusual history of travel. With the car being re-bodied in the 60’s. Did this particular coach builder help the car? Or was it a detrimental move? There seems to be a lot of nuances with these cars that can be confusing to folks like myself.  

[JV Puleo]

It was almost certainly shipped as a chassis since RR of America never built bodies...in fact, RR in England didn't either at the time. That said, I've no idea what the original body was but many of these chassis have had multiple bodies on them. I'd say it would be worth more with a period body ... if it was intact. Another point is that many RR cars were limousines (a much higher percentage than you'd guess from current car shows). When they were traded in they were nearly impossible to sell so very often more "sporty" open bodies were fitted. Eventually RR of America did this themselves. They couldn't refuse to take a car that expensive in trade despite the fact that they were nearly impossible to sell.

[BobinVirginia]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

It was almost certainly shipped as a chassis since RR of America never built bodies...in fact, RR in England didn't either at the time. That said, I've no idea what the original body was but many of these chassis have had multiple bodies on them. I'd say it would be worth more with a period body ... if it was intact. Another point is that many RR cars were limousines (a much higher percentage than you'd guess from current car shows). When they were traded in they were nearly impossible to sell so very often more "sporty" open bodies were fitted. Eventually RR of America did this themselves. They couldn't refuse to take a car that expensive in trade despite the fact that they were nearly impossible to sell.

Thank you Joe. I read the description and was a bit lost. The coach built cars are a mystery to me. 

[motoringicons]

One nice and one great Rolls Royce PIs SOLD at the Mecum Auction on Sunday: 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[alsancle]

4 hours ago, motoringicons said:

One nice and one great Rolls Royce PIs SOLD at the Mecum Auction on Sunday: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Riviera is an Ascot with enclosed passenger compartment.   I would expect it to bring a lot more money than the other towncar.

[Keith Ward]

I wasn’t far out with my estimate of 65k to 85k for the 1928 Phantom 1. In the end selling for 55k (plus commission??)

 

this is great news, the continuing devaluation of these cars will make them less attractive to the speculators and more attractive to a new generation of younger enthusiasts who buy the cars for their artistry rather than their profit potential. 

[Keith Ward]

Bargain time? 

https://www.carandclassic.com/auctions/1931-rolls-royce-phantom-i-riviera-town-car-by-js-inskip-gLBvK4 

 

Perhaps?

[John Bloom]

A very interesting car.  I feel like my education on cars that have been Re-bodied , is still in the infancy stage. What will the Rolls-Royce crowd think about the body situation on this offering?

[prewarnut]

I would think this example, rebodied "in-period" by J Inskip with fantastic details in exemplary condition and swapping town car for town car body - just more modernized along a PII theme, would not cause this to suffer. Man that was a long sentence.

[alsancle]

14 hours ago, Keith Ward said:

Bargain time? 

https://www.carandclassic.com/auctions/1931-rolls-royce-phantom-i-riviera-town-car-by-js-inskip-gLBvK4 

 

Perhaps?

Done in period by a known coachbuilder (or in this case the RR of American dealer) is accepted and fine and not something that would destroy the value of a car.    Be aware that towncar bodies generally lag the market over other styles.  Typically conservative with a drivers compartment designed for smaller chauffeurs.

This car is attractive, but chrome wires with whitewalls is a mistake.

 

 

[Kadee]

Sold by Sotheby's in Feb 2024 :

https://rmsothebys.com/auctions/bc24/lots/r0005-1930-rollsroyce-phantom-i-riviera-town-car-by-js-inskip/

[alsancle]

So I did 100 miles today in two different PII RR.  50 miles one way in the black car and then 50 miles back in the beige car.   They are 5 chassis numbers apart and it is very interesting to compare similar cars.   The problem with evaluating the driving characteristics of old cars in general is that you never know the sort level of the car you are driving.  A bad experience might just be that particular car and not all.  

 

Love to get Keith's feedback to see what he agrees on.  After a bunch of miles I've come to the following observations:

 

1.  Be in 2nd gear by 5mph,  3rd by 12mph and then 4th by 20/22 mph.  Pause in neutral to allow the clutch brake to do its thing and you will have clean shifts.   A PII will pull easily from 10 mph up to 80 in 4th gear.

 

2.  Lots of torque,  You can climb decent grades in 4th gear, although steep grades require 40 mph plus to be in the power band. 

 

3.  Brakes are boosted by a servo unit on the transmission.  They work well for stopping such big cars.

 

4.  You can cruise comfortably at 50 mph.  RR talks about much higher maintained speeds but at 100K to do an engine I'm not inclined to push it.

[John Bloom]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

So I did 100 miles today in two different PII RR.  50 miles one way in the black car and then 50 miles back in the beige car.   They are 5 chassis numbers apart and it is very interesting to compare similar cars.   The problem with evaluating the driving characteristics of old cars in general is that you never know the sort level of the car you are driving.  A bad experience might just be that particular car and not all.  

 

Love to get Keith's feedback to see what he agrees on.  After a bunch of miles I've come to the following observations:

 

1.  Be in 2nd gear by 5mph,  3rd by 12mph and then 4th by 20/22 mph.  Pause in neutral to allow the clutch brake to do its thing and you will have clean shifts.   A PII will pull easily from 10 mph up to 80 in 4th gear.

 

2.  Lots of torque,  You can climb decent grades in 4th gear, although steep grades require 40 mph plus to be in the power band. 

 

3.  Brakes are boosted by a servo unit on the transmission.  They work well for stopping such big cars.

 

4.  You can cruise comfortably at 50 mph.  RR talks about much higher maintained speeds but at 100K to do an engine I'm not inclined to push it.

Great stuff! I want one!

[edinmass]

I’m a bigger fan of the P1’s……..although the PII is a better driver. Here is a photo of a PII going south along the Sargasso Sea. This PII sold new in 1933 for 27,800 dollars. Not a entry level car during the depression!

 

 

[Keith Ward]

12 hours ago, alsancle said:

Love to get Keith's feedback to see what he agrees on.  After a bunch of miles I've come to the following observations:

 

1.  Be in 2nd gear by 5mph,  3rd by 12mph and then 4th by 20/22 mph.  Pause in neutral to allow the clutch brake to do its thing and you will have clean shifts.   A PII will pull easily from 10 mph up to 80 in 4th gear.

 

2.  Lots of torque,  You can climb decent grades in 4th gear, although steep grades require 40 mph plus to be in the power band. 

 

3.  Brakes are boosted by a servo unit on the transmission.  They work well for stopping such big cars.

 

4.  You can cruise comfortably at 50 mph.  RR talks about much higher maintained speeds but at 100K to do an engine I'm not inclined to push it.

 

 

Al, I totally agree with your gear changing speeds these are a good all round guide. In a warm car from a standing start on a level road and with the mixture 2 clicks rich, its possible to start in second, 3rd at 10 and 4th at 18 so long as your clutch is strong. 

We don’t have hills in the UK midlands like you have in the US but near me I use the Stonleigh Hill to put cars through their paces. Its only 1/4 mile long so no worries about getting into trouble, there’s usually a police car posted at the top waiting for cars exceeding the 30 speed limit so I have to be careful. Here’s a short video of me taking 215AMS up in 4th starting on the bridge at about 11mph. It went up the hill as easily as a modern auto-shift, amazing power at such low revs. (the speed is displayed at the bottom right) 

 

[alsancle]

42 minutes ago, Keith Ward said:

Al, I totally agree with your gear changing speeds these are a good all round guide. In a warm car from a standing start on a level road and with the mixture 2 clicks rich, its possible to start in second, 3rd at 10 and 4th at 18 so long as your clutch is strong. 

We don’t have hills in the UK midlands like you have in the US but near me I use the Stonleigh Hill to put cars through their paces. Its only 1/4 mile long so no worries about getting into trouble, there’s usually a police car posted at the top waiting for cars exceeding the 30 speed limit so I have to be careful. Here’s a short video of me taking 215AMS up in 4th starting on the bridge at about 11mph. It went up the hill as easily as a modern auto-shift, amazing power at such low revs. (the speed is displayed at the bottom right) 

 

 

 

Great video Keith.   I've been running the mixture dead center and I'm going to try running as you say once the car is warm.  I hit a mile long incline around 10% at 30 mph and was able to get to 50 by the end.  I was impressed by that.

[Keith Ward]

On 6/7/2024 at 11:34 AM, alsancle said:

This car is attractive, but chrome wires with whitewalls is a mistake.

Very true, especially here in the UK, it would probably have achieved another £10k without them. 

[Keith Ward]

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

 

Great video Keith.   I've been running the mixture dead center and I'm going to try running as you say once the car is warm.  I hit a mile long incline around 10% at 30 mph and was able to get to 50 by the end.  I was impressed by that.

Thats good work Al, your car is well tuned, to be honest, when these cars were designed, efficiency wasn’t a constraint on the engineers, nobody cared. As long as the fuel burned without soot or too much heat then it was good, the early Phantom 2s (and I think all of the AJS/AMS chassis) were 5:1  compression ratio. I’ve said it before but from an automotive design point of view they are basically posh tractors, nothing complex but just excellent engineering theory and practice applied to the ICE.

As long as they burn clean, pull well and run quiet, thats about as much demand we should make of them. I’m sure yours would cruise at 60 without too much problem because of the exceptionally well designed mechanics, and assuming good care, a cylinder head corrosion problem is more likely than a mechanical failure. And if proper application of inhibitor is practiced, there is no reason why the corrosion can’t be stopped in its tracks.