1949 Buick Super Wagon Brake Time

[Guest Aquila]

Hello Everyone -

 

I hope I am posting this in the right forum / section.  I have been working on a beautiful 1949 Buick Super "Woody" wagon.  I am very lucky to have the shop manual handy with me as I work on getting this beauty fully back on the road.

 

A few days ago, I finally got to take her for a long drive and after about 20 miles of near enough flawless driving, I lost the brakes.  Pedal went straight to the floor.  I didn't panic and was able to pull over and finally got a flat-bed to get her home.

 

I noticed as we put her on a flat bed that there was brake fluid leaking from the rear driver's side wheel / tire on the inside.  I am amazed I missed this as I park it on card board panels to spot leaks.  Anyway.... it's obvious where my leak came from and after 20 miles of driving and using the brakes, I guess I lost all brake fluid.

 

Maybe it was a sudden and extremely fast leak.  Prior to this, the car has been on short 10 mile hops here and there to get her juices flowing after been stored for a few years.

 

The decision has been made to work on all four brakes.  As I said, I have the work manual handy and I will be reading that like a Bible when I get started on this part of the project.  I just wonder if any has had any similar experience?  Any suggestions or tips?  Any suggestions on where to get brake parts?

 

I am going to start by removing all her wheels and opening all four drums to see what's going on in them, especially that rear one that leaked.  I know where they brake master is located on the frame on the driver's side.  It looks a bit mingy so I am thinking we may replace that as well - especially since the whole system has to be bled now anyway, why not fully restore the whole brake system.

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

[Beemon]

You can get your original wheel cylinders and master cylinder bored by White Post. I hear they're pretty good. As for wheel cylinders, they should be available at the local NAPA. Your spring kits, drums and shoes can be had from multiple vendors and they're all the same so you just need to pick one. If your drums are within spec, then no need to replace - some auto stores still check thickness, just make sure you have the runout thickness handy when they tell you the drums are bad. If you get really in depth, you might want to redo all of your brake lines, too. The NICCOP brand at NAPA is probably the best stuff to use. Pretty easy to bend by hand and won't break down over time like the steel lines might.

[Bhigdog]

All of the above with the addition of hoses. I would say that's a must. If you do replace/rebuild all the components that handle the brake fluid I would consider using DOT 5 fluid. There's a ton of pro and con opinions here on DOT 5 vs DOT 3. Make up your own mind.............Bob

[JohnD1956]

Welcome to the forum Aquila. A 49 Woody wagon is an astounding find.  How long has the car been in storage?  Was the brake master cylinder dry when you got the car? 

[Guest Aquila]

On 3/13/2017 at 11:52 PM, Beemon said:

You can get your original wheel cylinders and master cylinder bored by White Post. I hear they're pretty good. As for wheel cylinders, they should be available at the local NAPA. Your spring kits, drums and shoes can be had from multiple vendors and they're all the same so you just need to pick one. If your drums are within spec, then no need to replace - some auto stores still check thickness, just make sure you have the runout thickness handy when they tell you the drums are bad. If you get really in depth, you might want to redo all of your brake lines, too. The NICCOP brand at NAPA is probably the best stuff to use. Pretty easy to bend by hand and won't break down over time like the steel lines might.

 

Thank You.  I briefly checked out White Post's webpage and will be reaching out to them.  I don't really have a NAPA that close to me, but I will track one down and see if they have the parts I need.  Good to know that those are still available.  I appreciate the advice and suggestion, particularly with the brake lines.  I will look into that as well.

 

First order of business will be to take all wheels off and open up the brakes and see what I am dealing with, especially the leaking one. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

All of the above with the addition of hoses. I would say that's a must. If you do replace/rebuild all the components that handle the brake fluid I would consider using DOT 5 fluid. There's a ton of pro and con opinions here on DOT 5 vs DOT 3. Make up your own mind.............Bob

 

To be honest, I have no idea what brake fluid was used in the car.  There are few little things that suggest someone could have done better with some of the things they worked on.  Might be prudent to do as you suggest and replace all the components that handle the brake fluid or at least flush them out and completely replace the fluid.  However, my understanding is that DOT 5 may not be compatible with older car's brake systems? 

 

14 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

Welcome to the forum Aquila. A 49 Woody wagon is an astounding find.  How long has the car been in storage?  Was the brake master cylinder dry when you got the car? 

 

Thanks for the welcome.  This is TRULY a unique car and it is in amazing condition too.  It was in storage for about 5 years.  I recently got it running nicely and humming along - engine was rebuilt prior to storage so we were ahead on that.  I sadly have no idea if the master cylinder was dry.  I drove the car around a few times after getting it up and running again and she drove fine.  I would say it was not leaking when we pulled it out and this leak occurred recently and possibly because the car was now back on the road and being put to use again.

 

 

As I mentioned, I will open up the drums and see what's going on in there.  I would LOVE to replace the master cylinder or at least have it reconditioned as it has a fair amount of corrosion on the surface.  I am attaching an early picture of when we first pulled her out of storage.  Since then, the hub cap has been replaced with a new one, she has had all her chrome polished, including all the trim, lights polished, plugs, radiator, belts, hoses, and a few other things have been replaced or fixed.

 

Overall though, she is in amazing condition.

[Bhigdog]

5 minutes ago, Aquila said:

However, my understanding is that DOT 5 may not be compatible with older car's brake systems? 

 

That's not a fact at all. There are a number of benefits to DOT 5 with few or only minor draw backs. Research the archived posts here vis-à-vis both. Beautiful car, BTW................Bob

[Beemon]

Dot 3/4 and Dot 5 fluid are not the same chemical composition and are not compatible. If reusing any hydraulic components, do not use dot 5. If everything is new, use dot 5 or dot 4 (higher boiling point than dot 3). Once you pick, you have to stick with it unless you want swelling/shrinking rubber cups in the wheel cylinders and master cylinder. 

[Joseph P. Indusi]

I have had DOT 5 silicone fluid in my 53 Special for over 15 years and have had no problems other than having to replace the brake light switch about every 2-3 years.

Other than these old collectible cars I do not know what other cars it is used in.

Joe

[Guest Aquila]

Thanks for all the responses gentlemen.  I am still open on which brake fluid to use, I will decide when the time comes to refill the brake system.

 

I finally got around to getting her up in the air and removing the drum on the faulty wheel / brake (Right Rear).  I found a faulty, leaking brake piston - as expected.  For my silver lining, all the brake fluid leaked onto the backing plate and not the brake pads themselves or inside the drum.  WHEW!

 

On inspection, I found that a lot of the brake components had actually been replaced - even the faulty brake piston.  The lines, nuts and bolts, pads, etc.  All still looked relatively new - certainly not what came with the car back in 1949.  Judging from how clean they looked, this was a relatively recent job.

 

So, I am now thinking I will replace just the piston on that wheel or maybe both rears to be safe and then replace the mingy looking master cylinder.  Any thoughts? 

 

Thanks again for all the input and responses. 

 

Here are some pictures:

 

The last picture is sadly how she came home when the brakes failed. 

 

 

[Jase]

Hi Aquila,

 

My thoughts are as follows: DOT 3 and 4 brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it attracts moisture. The DOT 5 is silicon based, so it does not. Hence, the popularity of the DOT 5 fluid for our rarely driven collector cars. The two fluids are utterly incompatible, and if you want to change fluid types you must either replace ALL seals or flush the system with alcohol.

 

I expect that the failed wheel cylinder will have rust pitting internally due to the above mentioned moisture attraction. Usually the rears are the first to blow due to the fact they are lowest point in the system and the water collects there. I would replace or sleeve the two rear wheel cylinders, and possibly the master. Then bleed the entire system until you get good fresh fluid at all bleeders. Then, just drive the car!  I don't think that I would go to the trouble of changing to DOT 5. To tell if you have DOT 5 already in the system, look at the fluid colour, the DOT 3 & 4 is brownish, the DOT 5 is purplish.  Also, make sure your parking brake is functional and in adjustment, just in case you have a failure again. 

 

Safe travels, and what a lovely car!

[Bob Engle]

If White post does the sleeving on your cylinders, they will not warrant the cylinders for lifetime if you use DOT 5.

If you have multiple cars, it is easier to stay with common fluids where possible to prevent accidental mixing.

With DOT3, just bleed the system every two or three years.

 

Bob Engle

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 

 Nice car!

     This subject gets kicked around a LOT.  My 1950 has been on the road for 7 years and 11,000 miles.  Using DOT 3.  Think I will stay with it. Since I do my own work, I know what I would do. I would check the offending wheel cylinder for pits. If none, install new internals, bleed, and go. IF it is pitted, Which I doubt, hone it out , replace internals, bleed, and go. If there is no indication of another leak, leave well enough alone.

 

  Ben

[Guest Aquila]

Thanks again for the responses.  It seems the subject of any kind of oil for cars is a hot topic anywhere .  I checked the oil and it is certainly DOT 3 or 4 based on the colour.  I will probably stick with that for now.

 

I have been looking at brake parts on line and I am wondering if it might be prudent to just replace parts in all four brakes.  A new brake cylinder costs up to $45 or so and a new Master Cylinder costs about $150 + Core Charge.  Kanter Auto Products offers a Deluxe Brake kit for $445 which comes with Brake Cylinders, Shoes, Lines, new springs, and even a Master Cylinder.   Wondering if that might be the way to go.

 

Another thing I noticed is that no one seems to sell the Brake Cylinder with the two rods on either side.  Just the cylinder itself.  Is that normal or just the way the pictures are taken?

 

Thanks!

[JohnD1956]

If this picture is taken at the point you removed the drum:

 

 

Then do not overlook the possibility that the brake was not adjusted and the piston on the wheel cylinder may have become dislodged.  There is nothing holding those pistons in except the distance the shoe can travel.  In this picture the adjuster looks to be close to the minimal amount of adjustment, thus requiring the wheel cylinder to push to it's limits to apply the brake.  I would not be tempted to replace a bunch of new parts because of this, although I would probably just replace this one wheel cylinder.  

 

Also I see no need to go into the master cylinder.  It did it's job.  But it's for each person to decide how far to go.

 

[Guest Aquila]

2 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

If this picture is taken at the point you removed the drum:

 

 

Then do not overlook the possibility that the brake was not adjusted and the piston on the wheel cylinder may have become dislodged.  There is nothing holding those pistons in except the distance the shoe can travel.  In this picture the adjuster looks to be close to the minimal amount of adjustment, thus requiring the wheel cylinder to push to it's limits to apply the brake.  I would not be tempted to replace a bunch of new parts because of this, although I would probably just replace this one wheel cylinder.  

 

Also I see no need to go into the master cylinder.  It did it's job.  But it's for each person to decide how far to go.

 

 

Hi - I took that picture after I wound in the adjuster.  I did that to make it easier to remove the cylinder precisely because of what you pointed out.  Good eye and good catch

 

I am not keen on replacing a bunch of new parts, I was just weighing the costs - by replacing the master cylinder, I am already 1/2 way to the cost of a complete kit.  That kit could also provide spares if needed down the line (just a new thought in my head).

 

There is a bit of vanity involved in replacing the master cylinder - it is pretty mingy compared to the rest of the car and such.  I will try to post a picture of it.

[Beemon]

When in doubt, pay out - a lesson I learned when doing brakes. Better to have it and know than to leave it and go.

[Guest Aquila]

Hi Chaps -

 

Just a quick update.  I have been busy working on other projects and the same time shopping around for brake parts.  I priced parts from several places and finally settled on a Deluxe Brake Kit from Kanter Auto Products.  I figured that for the price, it would be nice to have all the parts available should in case another leak or something comes up.

 

I got the packaged, and I am immediately a bit nervous.  While I don't want to sound biased or prejudiced, it concerns me that all the parts are Made In China, and I am replacing Made is USA parts which usually in cases were American Classics are concerned are probably better.

 

I took apart the "bad" cylinder today and found pitting inside.  I was able to clean it and port it out.  However, when testing it, it was still sticking.  So, I am kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.  I would prefer not to use the same cylinder that messed - even if I used a repair kit on it.  I am also now nervous of potential putting cheap parts on the car that might fail.

 

Has anyone ever used the Kanter Auto Products kits?  Anyone know if they are of good quality?  While checking the brake system over again, I observed a lot of rust on the outside of the Master Cylinder, there was also rust around the front mount that goes into a hard line.  I was advised to leave well alone for now and not potential open up a can of worms by attempting to replace the master cylinder.  I wonder if that hard brake line can be replaced.

 

One thing I also noticed is there must have been condensation in the brake system as there was rusty like bulky build up in the cylinder - it was browned and grainy.  I am sure this was part of the reason for failure.  This means it would advisable to bleed / clean the brake system out.  What can I use for this?  Alcohol or just run fresh brake fluid through the entire system?  I would like to get all the gunk out of the system if possible. 

 

So.... any thoughts from anyone on this.  Your input would be greatly appreciated.  Thank You!

Edited April 27, 2017 by Aquila (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

7 hours ago, Aquila said:

One thing I also noticed is there must have been condensation in the brake system as there was rusty like bulky build up in the cylinder - it was browned and grainy.  I am sure this was part of the reason for failure.  This means it would advisable to bleed / clean the brake system out.  What can I use for this?  Alcohol or just run fresh brake fluid through the entire system?  I would like to get all the gunk out of the system if possible. 

That's iron oxide mud. It is made up of the water absorbed into the fluid over years and the rusted internals of the brake lines and cylinders. I usually peel back the rubber dust boot on a wheel cylinder and can often see it beginning to seep past the cylinder seals. The material has to come from somewhere, most likely the inside surfaces of the brake piping. The water will rest on the bottom of the line internally and dissolve the steel making the thickness less on the bottom. Gently grip the sides of the line in random places with vice grips and increase the pressure in a non-destructive manner. The bad ones will crack along the bottom where the tubing is thin.

Water collects on the bottom of the line and the bottom of the cylinders, where you found the pits. Flushing every year, 3 years maximum, will get rid of the water and pretty much eliminate the rusting. I am overdue since my medical stuff but it is on the list this year.

 

Brake jobs need to be thorough and should be fairly expensive. If you don't spend enough to equal two bumpers, yours and the other guys, you probably skimped. 50 years ago the Navy saying was "When in doubt, change it out." Doubting something is a sign things aren't right. Asking someone if they can confirm your doubts means you really don't think it is right. That's a really nice car. Don't do anything you are not 100% confident in.

Bernie

[Guest Aquila]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

That's iron oxide mud. It is made up of the water absorbed into the fluid over years and the rusted internals of the brake lines and cylinders. I usually peel back the rubber dust boot on a wheel cylinder and can often see it beginning to seep past the cylinder seals. The material has to come from somewhere, most likely the inside surfaces of the brake piping. The water will rest on the bottom of the line internally and dissolve the steel making the thickness less on the bottom. Gently grip the sides of the line in random places with vice grips and increase the pressure in a non-destructive manner. The bad ones will crack along the bottom where the tubing is thin.

Water collects on the bottom of the line and the bottom of the cylinders, where you found the pits. Flushing every year, 3 years maximum, will get rid of the water and pretty much eliminate the rusting. I am overdue since my medical stuff but it is on the list this year.

 

Brake jobs need to be thorough and should be fairly expensive. If you don't spend enough to equal two bumpers, yours and the other guys, you probably skimped. 50 years ago the Navy saying was "When in doubt, change it out." Doubting something is a sign things aren't right. Asking someone if they can confirm your doubts means you really don't think it is right. That's a really nice car. Don't do anything you are not 100% confident in.

Bernie

 

Bernie -

 

Thanks very much for the response.  I figured the "mud" was due to condensation, thanks for helping me confirm that.  This further confirms that I should do a thorough and complete brake job on the car as I am now sure there is mud everywhere. 

 

And you are absolutely right, if it doesn't feel right, it just isn't right.  I will contact Kanter and see if maybe we can trade out parts for better quality or I will just eat the return fee and get better parts.  I prefer to fix it and forget - meaning I'd like to not have that on the back of my mind as a potential fail point on the car.  I was very lucky last time the brakes failed that I did not have to replace two bumper

 

Cheers,

 

Michael

[old-tank]

NAPA or Rockauto will probably have Raybestos cylinders and the ones I bought a year ago were USA made.

Your hardware looks to be okay to reuses.

Brake hoses can be matched locally.

Brake shoes:  for best stopping effect get yours relined with specified lining material (ask for linings that will easily stop 2+ tons of Buick)

[beerczar1976]

Unfortunately, bought Raybestos Pro Grade wheel cylinders for all 4 wheels thru Rock Auto within the last week...now Made in China. :(

[Guest Aquila]

I am happy to report that the car is now back on her feet.  I was able to complete the brake job.  I examined the rest of the brakes and found that all the components were in pretty good shape.  Seems this piston on the left rear was the only one that malfunctioned.

 

I did find there was moisture and a small amount of corrosion in the old brake fluid so I flushed it with two cans of DOT 4 Brake Fluid.  I decided to go with DOT 4 to keep it simple for myself.  I appreciate all the feed back and posts you guys shared.  The information was priceless.

 

I did a short test drive and the brakes seem to be working fine.  I will be doing a road test next - wish me luck.  I think I am going to do another brake flush as I was not quite 100% satisfied with what I did.  I think I can flush it a bit better.

[Beemon]

Unfortunately, everything is being made in China these days. There is no way getting around it. White Post Restorations can take your original wheel cylinders, bore them and sleeve them, but it costs extra $$$. For that bit of extra cash, you know you have something with a lifetime warranty, vs. the stuff you get on the internet for $20. My wheel cylinders were from NAPA over the counter, and they usually have two lines - 1 is made in China and the other, while a bit more expensive, is usually made somewhere else like Mexico. Doesn't sound like it's much of a huge step in the right direction, but the quality is far better than the made in China stuff. The wheel cylinders from NAPA that I bought were the stuff made in wherever else that isn't China, and I have had no issues.

 

Business is all about big gains, and without getting political, stuff will never be made in the USA unless they can afford to. The new thing the companies are doing is putting "Engineered in the USA", but you have to watch out. Just because it's engineered here, doesn't mean its manufactured to the same USA standards.

[Guest Aquila]

Well.... I put her back on her wheels and took her out for a 30 minute test drive - city driving and freeway driving.  So far, so good.... everything seems to be working fine.  I think I will leave things be as far as bleeding it again.  This is the third drive since I did the brake job, so I am hoping things are good to go for now.

 

Next on the list - do the carpeting.  Gave her a quick cleaning after the drive.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Aquila (see edit history)