1961 Impala

[Guest robgrin]

I'm new to this forum. I have a question about a 1961 Impala i just bought. How do i tell if I have a numbers matching car? The engine assembly stamp is F0609D. The engine Casting number is 3789935. The VIN number is 11837L193267.and here is a picture of the Cowl Tag. Can anyone help ?

[John348]

The body was made at Van Nyes California the third week of June the engine was assembled on June 9th. The block is a late casting 1961 283 170 HP powerglide (D).  1837 is a two door hardtop V-8 Impala. 936 is ermine white, the "A" is for the insert color I have to look for that  I think it is red. Trim 873 is for a red interior. I would consider it matching numbers everything is in the right time line

Hope this is of help 

Edited August 18, 2016 by John348 (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

 I would consider it matching numbers everything is in the right time line

Hope this is of help 

 

"Matching numbers" means that numbers actually MATCH.  Typically that means that the VIN derivative stamp on key parts like the block and trans case match the VIN of the car.  This proves that these parts are original to the car.  Simply having correct casting numbers and date codes doesn't prove anything,since there are thousands if not tens of thousands of "correct" parts but only one set of numbers matching parts.

 

Of course, this is one of the most incorrectly used terms in the hobby. I've seen ads for a "numbers matching" engine being sold without a car.  What does it "match" exactly?  There was even an ad for a set of four steel wheel that were referred to as "numbers matching". Seriously?

 

Unfortunately, not all manufacturers started using VIN derivative stamps at the same time.  Oldsmobile,for example, didn't start until the Feds mandated this for the 1968 model year.  Chevy started sooner, but I don't know when. Of course, GM also had the Protect-O-Plate that cross referenced the engine unit number and trans unit number to the VIN for warrantee purposes. This artifact will also prove that these numbers "match" the VIN if you have it.

 

Of course, with the premium being placed on "numbers matching" cars, restamping of parts is not uncommon. 

[John348]

40 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

"Matching numbers" means that numbers actually MATCH.  Typically that means that the VIN derivative stamp on key parts like the block and trans case match the VIN of the car.  This proves that these parts are original to the car.  Simply having correct casting numbers and date codes doesn't prove anything,since there are thousands if not tens of thousands of "correct" parts but only one set of numbers matching parts.

 

Of course, this is one of the most incorrectly used terms in the hobby. I've seen ads for a "numbers matching" engine being sold without a car.  What does it "match" exactly?  There was even an ad for a set of four steel wheel that were referred to as "numbers matching". Seriously?

 

Unfortunately, not all manufacturers started using VIN derivative stamps at the same time.  Oldsmobile,for example, didn't start until the Feds mandated this for the 1968 model year.  Chevy started sooner, but I don't know when. Of course, GM also had the Protect-O-Plate that cross referenced the engine unit number and trans unit number to the VIN for warrantee purposes. This artifact will also prove that these numbers "match" the VIN if you have it.

 

Of course, with the premium being placed on "numbers matching" cars, restamping of parts is not uncommon. 

 

Joe, In this case they will not match, this is close as a match as you will find on any of these small block cars. The engines were built in either Flint or Tonawanda and shipped on rail to the assembly plants, small blocks were pretty much built 2-4 weeks prior to the body assembly, in this case it is two weeks apart. Big blocks are a different story. The numbers provided would be considered matching. The VIN number does not appear on the cowl tag, or the engine, however the VIN being sequential would have to be rather high considering it is a June car. I would guess that it would begin around 210000-230000 This car was the 24,248 V-8 Impala two door hard-top built at Van Nyes CA, based on the body number  The VIN would have to begin 1(for the year 1961) 1837 (V-8 Impala two door hard-top) the in this case either V or L  for either Van Nyes or Los Angeles. If it were a six cylinder car 1737 on the VIN or the cowl. The VIN number was not stamped on the passenger car 283's and 235 six cylinders. True without the VIN number we can not vouch it is 100% across the board numbers matching, however the engine number given does match the cowl tag. There was no protecto-plate on these year Chevrolets, I know that started after 1964, exactly when I don't know. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by John348 (see edit history)

[real61ss]

The information provided by John is correct with the exception of the reference made to the 6 cylinder cowl tag. All of the cowl tags indecated 8 cylinders but that doesn't apply to this car.

The practice of stamping the vin in the engine block began with the 409 CI cars in 1962. The 300 horse cars were next to recieve the vin in late 62 and by 63 most all models had the vin stamp .

The car being discussed is about as close to matching numbers as you can get for a 61Chevrolet. None of the 61 Chevrolets including the 409 cars had a vin stamped motor

Edited August 19, 2016 by real61ss (see edit history)

[Guest robgrin]

Thanks for your input. I Think it is the original 283 engine. Originally when I bought it I was thinking big block pro street but if this is an all original car I might just do disc brakes A/C and maybe air ride. here's a couple of pictures.

[John348]

5 hours ago, mike6024 said:

Van Nuys

Thanks,

[mike6024]

Looks like a good restoration candidate

[countrytravler]

Here is a site for info and parts.

http://www.348-409.com/forum/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/174333742653749/

Edited August 20, 2016 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[Impala61rag]

Does anybody know or have picture of Original rivets 1961 impala convertible gm Canada look like 

[Impala61rag]

Does anybody know or have picture of Original rivets 1961 impala convertible gm Canada look like 

[padgett]

"Number's matching" is an elusive quantity as opposed to "correct" as in correct date code. The difference is when a block has a VIN, it was stamped and not hard to change (can sometimes spot the wrong font used) OTOH the date code is cast in the block or heads (at least for Pontiac) and is very hard to change.

Other parts are easy to spot: a Rochester Quadrajet has year, make, and engine coded in the partnumber. They may have been made by Carter which is fine but in general if the number ends in an even number it is for an automatic, odd for manual transmission.

Or take a Delco radio, the tag on the side will tell you the year, make, and model it was intended for (but in most would have to remove the radio to verify)

Nearly everything on a post 1960 GM car has a partnumber and a date code. The question is "how far do you want to go ?" Few go beyond the engine but to be "as it was built" or even "as it could have been build" requires a lot of research that goes far beyond just Cowl tags and engine.

For example a 1964 GTO with Muncie four speed transmission would have a small input shaft, not the large one but would need to pull the tranny to check

Or my favorite: no GM car left the assembly line with a R59 battery (never say never but require documetation).

[Powerglide]

Padgett is absolutely correct. My car's VIN starts 11669B, from this you can tell it is a 1961 4-door sedan V8 Powerglide, assembled in Baltimore. Other numbers show it was built in April 1961. All the numbers, casting numbers, casting dates, engine stamps, even the carby tag, match. Nice There is no guarantee all this is correct, but the more corresponding data you have, the more certain you can be sure it is a "matching numbers" car. The diff code will be stamped on the rear axle housing, but I haven't got that far yet - it will be 3:08:1. This car lived all its life in WV until 2016 when it appeared in Adelaide, AU. It now resides in the fair city of Melbourne, in my garage, undergoing sympathetic restoration, hopefully to a B+ standard. It has zero options. A nasty made-in-China aftermarket radio went in the bin. No trunk light. One-speed wipers. Very basic, the way I like it. Why not drop in a 409, or at least a 348, you might ask: because it is only going to be original once: the cast iron PG runs fine and leaks next to nothing, and the 283 runs fast and smooth, clocked only 106k miles, oil nice and clean, barely run in, as a friend put it. Had one repaint some time ago, not very good, about 7/10, but I'm rubbing it back carefully now, and it is looking not bad.  I had the original windscreen polished (all the glass is original), and I am now addressing the only significant rust at the ends of the front underbody brace, where mud accumulated over 55 WV winters. '61 4-door Chevys are becoming comparatively rare as many have been parted out to restore 2-door cars, and it was not a particularly high production year to start with.

 

My twilight turquoise and ermine white beauty is getting power brakes and power steering to make navigating around the 'burbs a tad easier, but that's all, and in any case these don't appear on the tags. The nasty aftermarket wheels (also made in China) will be replaced with 14x5 originals and correct 1961 hub caps. Everything else works fine after 59 years, and not a micro chip anywhere. Where is a Hyundai or for that matter a BMW going to be in another 59 years?

 

[padgett]

Melbourne is only 75 miles from me. Must be a 283 since the 348 in 60 got a "Turboglide" ("GR" for Grade Retard instead of "L") and ranks right up there with the RotoHydramatic). Dunno id Iron or Aluminum case.

[Powerglide]

Melbourne Australia, not Melbourne FLA! More than 75 miles, I promise you.

 

Well spotted, your are a true scholar of the works emanating from the late Louis Chevrolet! - it is a 283 170hp, so it is a no-option Bel Air, just a bare 1669. I am told that all 283s had iron PG until '63, all 327s had the alloy PG. 

 

I am amazed at how well designed and simple these cars were. AU GM cars were Holdens, some used a lot of Chevy parts, but they were different in design and assembly. The 2001-6 Pontiac GTO is actually a Holden Monaro, built in Adelaide, AU, running an LS1 and Tremec or 4L60E. The AU version offered a Buick 3800/4L60E option. The same car sold in the UK as a Vauxhall VXR8. There were also special (HSV) versions of the Monaro, one with a Corvette Callaway motor, today highly sought after, and another with the Corvette 427, rare and expensive.

 

The simplicity of older Chevys makes them fairly easy to dismantle in part or in whole, and reassemble. The SBC motor is a work of automotive art - practical auto engineering at its best. I have had 7 cars with a SBC motor, most with a PG, and I am sold on the combo. I hope Robgrin got his Impala back on the road, and Impala61rag should find some info here, as AU Chevrolets of that period were all sourced from Canada CKD, and will be the same, except assembled here RHD with a Pontiac instrument cluster; the AU Pontiacs were also Canada-sourced and were therefore Pontiac bodies on a Chevrolet chassis and running gear, right up until about 1969, for an example, see

<https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/1966-pontiac-parisienne-auto/SSE-AD-6696689/?Cr=1>

 

To some, Zora Arkus-Duntov is considered a secular saint.

 

 

 

[John348]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Melbourne is only 75 miles from me. Must be a 283 since the 348 in 60 got a "Turboglide" ("GR" for Grade Retard instead of "L") and ranks right up there with the RotoHydramatic). Dunno id Iron or Aluminum case.

 

Mr P

 

I just a NEEDED to correct your misinformation the powerglide and turboglide were available on both the 283's and 348' engines from 1958 through 1961 

[padgett]

Thank you, another mythconception. Always want to learn just the ones I saw back in the day 348s had the turbo.

[Powerglide]

No turboglides sold new here, never saw one. BTW John348, here is a thread about the best known W block car in AU. This '62 409 is second in fame only to Gurney's '61, which also lived here most of its life

 

<https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/294397>

[John348]

18 minutes ago, Powerglide said:

No turboglides sold new here, never saw one. BTW John348, here is a thread about the best known W block car in AU. This '62 409 is second in fame only to Gurney's '61, which also lived here most of its life

 

<https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/294397>

 

Yes indeed I had taken a trip to visit the car when it was in Verne's possession in New Jersey a few years ago

 

 

[John348]

I forgot to mention that the Turboglide was introduced on the 1957 Models

[George Smolinski]

To all those replying on this thread:

Those of you who called a Vehicle Identification Number a VIN, thank you.

Those of you who referred to it as a VIN number, there is no such thing. Learn the difference.

VIN is the “Vehicle Identification Number.”

VIN is a Vehicle Identification Number number. What is that?

 

[Powerglide]

Is that like Major Major in Catch 22?

 

No matter. Is anyone interested enough in a plain Jane 1669 light restoration for me to post a couple of pics as we go along? 409/T-10 bubble tops are the bee's knees, no argument (see above - I think the Gurney lives in the UK now after its restoration), but I've long had a thing for a 4-door flat-top, and this one turned up after 2 years searching for a reasonable one. Its a 20-footer that I'm going to make into a 10-footer. I like the bench seat, the whole family fits in the front seat, leaving the rear seat free for half a dozen neighbourhood kids, or somewhere to put a couple of my buddies to sleep it off on the way home. The trunk is perfect for the family to sit in with your feet in the well when the picnic gets rained out (it does rain sometimes in AU). Can't do all that easily with a 2-door, can you, John? BTW, have a look at the '62 Beechey 409 via the url above, he found it and restored it and drives it around, street-legal and has had it back on the track, still blows away everything else from the same era. Nice of you to present your son with a real antique car - I'd have your Biscayne if it had more doors!

 

Here are the floors, couple rust holes at each end of the front underfloor brace, that's all. Surface rust cleans up OK with oxalic acid, safe and mild compared with oven cleaner. Vinegar works, too, but not as well. It goes to the panel shop to get the holes fixed soon as we all get outa jail here. 

 

Incidentally, I read on some blog that x-frame cars had a pressing in the tranny hump where you cut it out for a 4-speed floor shift. Not true, at least for '61.

 

 

 

[capngrog]

On 8/18/2016 at 9:52 PM, robgrin said:

Thanks for your input. I Think it is the original 283 engine. Originally when I bought it I was thinking big block pro street but if this is an all original car I might just do disc brakes A/C and maybe air ride. here's a couple of pictures.

 

 

Your began this thread with a concern over whether or not your car is a "matching numbers" car, which implies (to me at least) that you are interested in the originality of the car.  If that's the case, why would you modify it as above?  Unless you are into road racing, drum brakes are just fine.  Air conditioning is nice to have, but not needed where you're located.  "Air ride" can run the gamut from just "lift shocks" to air ride on four corners, but can require significant modification to the suspension.  If you're not concerned with the originality of the car, the modifications you propose make a lot of sense to me and will enhance the driving experience considerably.

 

Whatever your choice, drive it and enjoy it!

 

Cheers,

Grog 

[Powerglide]

I'd keep it stock, as Grog says, the drum brakes work fine, I'm adding a OEM booster just to reduce pedal pressure, and PS so I don't have to screw the wheel so much navigating city streets and parking. Some who live in the country actually remove PS because the ram system takes some of the feel out of it. The stock shocks are also just fine, overhaul the front end properly and the car will handle and ride perfectly well. One trick is to dial in a couple of degrees of negative caster,  a half-degree more on the passenger side helps track down the road straight, esp on a 2LBT with a high crown.