1958 Fuel Injected original Bonneville!

[Guest Roj]

Just to refresh, this cars runs and drives fine and still has the FI unit on it? The figure 1 of 107 mean 1 of 107 Bonnevilles built with FI? I know Pontiac made more than 107 units, and in 58 it was a option on any Pontiac. 

Does your friend plan on selling the car?

Yes the car runs and drives fine, the figure of 1 of 107 was information I LOOKED UP that 107 Bonneville's were built with the FI unit. (I could be wrong, because it was a GM reference book I was given with my vette's a long time ago.)   Yes it does have the FI unit on it and I have 2 vette's with FI units, so I have some experience with them.  If it was 1958, yes I would yank it of and throw it away, but it's 2015 and the car is original and runs and drives with it.

 

Yes, he plan's on selling it and I have just been gathering information for him on what I could find and help from the forum. 

[Guest Roj]

Just to refresh, this cars runs and drives fine and still has the FI unit on it? The figure 1 of 107 mean 1 of 107 Bonnevilles built with FI? I know Pontiac made more than 107 units, and in 58 it was a option on any Pontiac. 

Does your friend plan on selling the car?

 

FYI

All 1957 Bonneville's were convertibles  and all were fuel injected . There were 630  Bonneville's made. No FI for the other series.

My sources say for 1958 approximately 400 units were produced for Bonneville. My sources do not give a number for the rest of the Pontiac series which FI was also a option. 

Didn't know this information, I am by no means an expert on Bonneville's and certainly not 58 Bonneville's.  So it may be 1 of 400 Bonneville's with the FI option.   

[padgett]

Might mention we still have not seen an engine bay picture of the car in the first post...

ps got very deep into Rochester FIs in the early '70s and still have most of the original service manuals. Someday I'll have to host an archaological dig in my den.

pps to find a real expert, do not ask him/her, ask their detractors.

[46 woodie]

Biggest mistake I ever made was to let someone talk me into replacing the FI unit on my 1960 Corvette with dual carbs. Man I wish I could go back! I don't remember how much I sold the unit for but it was nowhere what it is worth now. Oh well, that's the price you pay for being stupid!

[Ed Luddy]

I love that car! 1958 Pontiac 2dr hardtop is my bucket list car. A Fuelie Bonnie is at the top of that list, or rather beside a Canadian version Parisienne with a 348 TrPower. Even if I was able to sell my 4 current old cars, and the difference between the Canadian & USA Dollars I'd still be short

[padgett]

Like many expensive things today, back in the '70s I was considered odd for paying $50-$100 and often tossing in a carb and manifold for a Rochester FI. Nobody wanted them & I found most on garage shelves. Had a stamped 57 on my mantel for a while, was kind of strange looking.

They had some issues, mainly leaking coasting signal valves and clogged injectors (were very easy to unscrew and clean out - had to do a set between races one weekend. Very few people understood the fuel metering system. Not hard, just different but easy to screw up.

Had a '64 in a '67 Camaro for a while that had great MPG, very low emissions, & was a killer autocross car but no-one really cared when they could have a 427 or 454 much cheaper. Really $$$ killed them after 1965, big block was cheaper. I just never have cared for big blocks.

So, like a lot of things they were great when new but a total lack of anyone who could maintain them destroyed the market and from about 1970 were unwanted.

[Ed Luddy]

Like many expensive things today, back in the '70s I was considered odd for paying $50-$100 and often tossing in a carb and manifold for a Rochester FI. Nobody wanted them & I found most on garage shelves. Had a stamped 57 on my mantel for a while, was kind of strange looking.

They had some issues, mainly leaking coasting signal valves and clogged injectors (were very easy to unscrew and clean out - had to do a set between races one weekend. Very few people understood the fuel metering system. Not hard, just different but easy to screw up.

Had a '64 in a '67 Camaro for a while that had great MPG, very low emissions, & was a killer autocross car but no-one really cared when they could have a 427 or 454 much cheaper. Really $$$ killed them after 1965, big block was cheaper. I just never have cared for big blocks.

So, like a lot of things they were great when new but a total lack of anyone who could maintain them destroyed the market and from about 1970 were unwanted.

 Yes they were a forlorn piece of technology by the 70's. Kinda the same thing happened again on the 81-82 Imperials with the Bendix FI units being recalled and replaced with carbs.

 I agree with you regarding big blocks. At least in a Corvette, but much better suited to a SS Impala than a small block. I also passed up a Rochester Corvette FI system a few times. Due to my lack of skill and money to fix, but I always liked them. Thought it would be neat to put one on my 65 convertible 327 Corvette or years later when I finally got a 63 coupe.

[Curti]

Chrysler Corp with Bendix Corp.

I believe it 58 DeSoto only and they were all recalled. 

[alsancle]

That car is cool, but condition is probably 3-4 from the pictures.  Maybe it would clean up to a solid 2.   Also, rare as hen's teeth and would bring some good money I'm sure.

 

We need to start a rule where you are not allowed to quote price guides.   They are 100% toilet paper.

[padgett]

Price guides are handy when trading two $50,000 dogs for a $100,000 cat.

Was the Bendix Electrojector which was something of an unmentioned ancestor of the Bosch L-Jetronic and the forerunner of the PWM electronic Fuel Injection today (on four of the cars in my .sig). Bendix made the FI on the '76 Cad Seville and a very few Eldos that year so wound up on GM cars a decade after the Rochester's demise. - For a long time I wanted a first gen Seville, don't now. Technology was later lost in the GM diesel disaster that killed diesel in this country for three decades. And now that there are a few good ones again, diesel is obsolete for much the same reason the Rochester died off.

Meanwhile today carbs exist only in the Judge, my portable generators, and the scooter.

[John348]

Cosworth Vega's also used the Bendix System in 75 and 76

[Ttotired]

This might stir the pot a little on the 58 mopar fuel injection

 

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/pts/5328031662.html?lang=es&cc=mx

 

And here is a thread about it

 

http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=59899&start=1

 

Ultra rare, I think there is only one surviving car

 

The Electrojector system had big problems with electro magnetic interference causing the engine to cut out, thats why they were recalled and replaced with 2x4 carburettors

 

Mick

[Guest]

I believe it 58 DeSoto only and they were all recalled. 

Little bit of history;

Electronic injection

The first commercial electronic fuel injection (EFI) system was Electrojector, developed by the Bendix Corporation and was offered by American Motors Corporation (AMC) in 1957.^[13][14] The Rambler Rebel, showcased AMC's new 327 cu in (5.4 L) engine. The Electrojector was an option and rated at 288 bhp (214.8 kW).^[15] The EFI produced peak torque 500 rpm lower than the equivalent carburetored engine^[11] The Rebel Owners Manual described the design and operation of the new system.^[16] (due to cooler, therefore denser, intake air^{[citation needed]}). The cost of the EFI option was US$395 and it was available on 15 June 1957.^[17] Electrojector's teething problems meant only pre-production cars were so equipped: thus, very few cars so equipped were ever sold^[18] and none were made available to the public.^[19] The EFI system in the Rambler ran fine in warm weather, but suffered hard starting in cooler temperatures.^[17]

Chrysler offered Electrojector on the 1958 Chrysler 300D, DeSoto Adventurer, Dodge D-500, and Plymouth Fury, arguably the first series-production cars equipped with an EFI system. It was jointly engineered by Chrysler and Bendix. The early electronic components were not equal to the rigors of underhood service, however, and were too slow to keep up with the demands of "on the fly" engine control. Most of the 35 vehicles originally so equipped were field-retrofitted with 4-barrel carburetors. The Electrojector patents were subsequently sold to Bosch.

[padgett]

And with a little padding/scripting would make a very interesting 1/2 hour TV show.

What I was just trying to find were the original SAE papers on the Rochester and the Bendix systems c.a. 1956. Both were in the GMI library and something is niggling about the stamped steel plenium as used by the '57 Pontiac being the original design and the cast aluminum was introed for the '57 Chev making the Pontiac the earlier unit.

Does anyone have those two papers ?

[Guest]

And with a little padding/scripting would make a very interesting 1/2 hour TV show.

What I was just trying to find were the original SAE papers on the Rochester and the Bendix systems c.a. 1956. Both were in the GMI library and something is niggling about the stamped steel plenium as used by the '57 Pontiac being the original design and the cast aluminum was introed for the '57 Chev making the Pontiac the earlier unit.

Does anyone have those two papers ?

You mean stuff like this?

ROCHESTER "RAMJET"

FUEL INJECTION

Chevrolet Corvette (1957-60)

Chevrolet Pass. Cars (1958-59)

Pontiac Bonneville (1957)

Pontiac (1958)

•CHANGES, CAUTIONS, CORRECTIONS

• J958 PONTIAC FUEL INJECTION FUEL INLFT HOSE

NOTE: On fuel injection cars before Engine No. 47830,

a fuel inlet hose having an oversize I.D. was used. In

order to prevent possibility of a fuel leak, replace the

oversize hose with Part No. 530831. Cars having the

correct size hose will be marked with a daub of white

paint on hose (outside of fuel injection housing).

-1958 PONTIAC IMPROPER OPERATIONOF FAST IDLE

CORRFCTION: This condition may be caused by an improperly

scribed cold enrichment cover assembly. To

correct these assemblies and to check indexing of any

unit, proceed as follows: Normalize car temperature to

75°F (by letting car set in 75°F temperature overnight),

then remove shroud assembly and disconnect cold enrichment

lead at ignition resistor. Loosen cold enrichment

cover and connect a vacuum gauge in cold enrich-

. ment line. Start engine, then rotate cold enrichment

cover in lean direction until a vacuum reading is noted

in cold enrichment line. Rotate cover in rich direction

until vacuum cuts off. Rotate cover an additional 4%

notches rich from point of vacuum cut off. This is the

center index point. Scribe cover and housing for future

.._ reference. Set enrichment cover o.ne notch rich from

index point and tighten securely. Reconnect cold enrichment

at ignition resistor.

• 7958 PONTIAC FUEL DISTRIBUTOR LINE "0" RING

INSTALLATION CAUTION (To prevent a serious fuel

leakage into lower shroud): Fuel distributor line-tofuel

meter is sealed with a small "O" ring (1957 units

used a self-sealing installation) which must be correctly

installed as follows: Position "O" ring on end

of fuel distributor line and fully against shoulder on

line, then coat ring with a light coating of petrolatum

to prevent cutting on installation. Position end of line

in fuel meter and tighten retaining nut fully

• 7958 PONTIAC IDLE MIXTURE NOT LEANING OUT

SUFFICIENTLY WITH THE MIXTURE SCREW CORRECTION

& DIAGNOSIS: See "Trouble Shooting"

-HIGH PRESSURE FUEL PUMP DRIVE SHAFT SEAL

LEAKAGE CORRECTION & SHAFT SEAL INSTALLATION

NOTE: Fuel leakage noted at rear of fuel ininjection

fuel meter may be caused by a worn drive

shaft seal on high pressure fuel pump and may be corrected

by installing a new shaft and seal (furnished

in Kit No. 7017174). NOTE - To remove and install

s al and shaft, make a seal remover and a seal installer

as indicated in illustrations. To install shaft

and seal, remove pump from fuel meter. NOTE - Mark

pump body, gear housing, and front cover for installation

in same position. Remove front cover and mark

relationship of idler gear to drive gear with a wax

9/l6-18 NF TAP

WITH ALL LEAD

THREADS REMOVED

CHAMFER '

AS SHOWN

SEAL REMOVER TOOL

n/i6 DIA.

"T

1 %"

1%2

1" DIA.

NOTE: 1 % 2 "

DIMENSION MUST

BE MAINTAINED TO

PREVENT BOTTOMING

OF SEAL & BLOCKING

DRAIN HOLE

MATERIAL: STEEL

-I

SEAL INSTALLER TOOL

pencil, then remove gear housing and idler gear. Remove

drive gear by extending shaft beyond gear so

drive pin can be removed. Screw seal remover tool (see

illustration) so it is seated in seal not more than two

or three turns (CAUTION - Screwing tool in further will

cause damage to rear bushing), then drive seal and tap

out of pump housing using old drive shaft inserted from

bearing end. Slide drive shaft through pump body and

remove through seal end to avoid damage to bushing.

Place a new seal in position in pump body with open

end of seal downward and press it into place with seal

installer (see illustration). Lubricate new drive shaft

and install in housing from seal end. Install drive

gear, idler gear, and gear housing in their original

positions (remove wax pencil markings). Assemble front

cover and install screws finger tight. At the same time,

rotate drive shaft counterclockwise (looking into drive

cable end). If shaft turns freely, gear housing is properly

centered. Tighten two of the Allen screws diagonally

across front cover. If shaft turns freely, tighten remaining

two screws and recheck shaft for free rotation.

If shaft is not binding, tighten screws to 40 inch

pounds. If pump tends to turn hard, loosen screws and

reposition gear housing.

DESCRIPTION: This fuel injection system is the "continuous

flow" type in which fuel is sprayed through

calibrated nozzles adjacent to each intake port. At

this point it is combined with air (in proper ratio) from

intake manifolds An "air meter" containing a throttle

valve and a venturi controls the amount of air admitted

to the intake manifold and p r o v i d e s the necessary

vacuum for fuel control under various operating conditions.

A "fuel meter" containing a fuel reservoir, high

pressure pump, and fuel controls, governs the amount

of fuel required according to load and speed. Auxiliary

controls for fuel cut-off during deceleration and for engine

starting are also contained in the fuel meter.

7958 <S LATER FUEL INJECTION NOTE: 7958 and

later model fuel iniection units are similar to 7957

models except as indicated below.

Chevrolet Pass. Cars & Corv tt - A spark port is used

to accommodate distributor vacuum advance and the

fuel enrichment assembly has been improved for a more

stable idle speed, improved hot starting, better par

throttle performance and improved fuel economy. On

1959 and later models, the intake manifold adaptor has

been redesigned to provide easier distributor removal.

Distributor pad on intake manifold is lower and a spacer

and gaskets are used to maintain proper distributor

level. NOTE • On 1959 and later models, remove spacer

with distributor after removing cap and rotor. On 1959

and later models, individual manifold-to-adaptor gaskets

are used for better alignment, and the air cleaner adaptor

and cleaner element are mounted on radiator support.

Chevrolet Corvette - In addition to changes noted above,

the Starting Cut-Off Switch, Starting Solenoid, Starting

Bypass Fuel Tube, Idle Vacuum Signal Tube, and

Signal Boost Tube have been eliminated. Elimination of

separate idle vacuum signal tube and signal boost

tube, vacuum signals for fuel control are now transmitted

to main control diaphragm by a single line for

all operations except starting. Auxiliary vacuum signals

formerly supplied by separate boost tube and idle vacuum

signal tube are added to main control diaphragm

vacuum signal by means of internal air meter passage

connections to main signal tube pickup point. Elimination

of starting solenoid, switch, and bypass fuel

lines was made possible by application of manifold

vacuum during cranking to provide fuel delivery. A

normally open diaphragm valve is tapped into injector

manifold which transmits manifold vacuum created

during cranking through a restriction to main control

diaphragm. This substitute vacuum source is eliminated

once the manifold vacuum exceeds 1.4" (of mercury),

as manifold vacuum completely overcomes diaphragm

spring tension at that point. Comparatively, manifold

vacuum applied to main control diaphragm on Corvette

positions spill plunger to provide fuel meter fuel

delivery to nozzles during cranking whereas on Pass.

Cars and earlier fuel injection units, fuel delivery is

is accomplished through a solenoid activated by the

engine cranking circuit which causes spill plunger to

be fully depressed to allow engine fuel pump pressure

to be delivered directly to nozzles through a starting

bypass fuel line. Once the engine starts, operation of

Pass. Car and Corvette units is the same.

Pontiac • A simplified cold enrichment system with

many passages enclosed in air meter casting has been

added. Other new features include a simplified signal

system which entails only one vacuum line between air

meter and fuel meter for control signal. The idle signal

system is built into the air meter. For starting, a manifold

vacuum valve is used to introduce cranking vacuum

to the signal system to boost control signal for starting.

This replaces the solenoid formerly used. *The spill

plunger and sleeve can be removed as an assembly and

replaced without disturbing other parts of fuel

Edited December 11, 2015 by helfen (see edit history)

[padgett]

No, not standards but papers presented to the SAE and published in the journal by GM and Chrysler

I believe this is the GM one (John Dolza was the lead):

THE GENERAL MOTORS FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM BASIC DEVELOPMENT PRODUCTION DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT

Paper #:570059

Published:1957-01-01

Dolza, J., Kehoe, E., Stoltman, D., and Arkus-Duntov, Z., "THE GENERAL MOTORS FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM BASIC DEVELOPMENT PRODUCTION DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT," SAE Technical Paper 570059, 1957, doi:10.4271/570059.

I saw this last in about 1972 but remember illustrations that showed a stamped steel plenium which made me wonder if the Pontiac unit predated the Chevrolet.

[Guest Madmooks]

My dad has been looking for one of these for a while. We'd be very interested if it was for sale. Great cars!

Mike

[=diego=]

On 12/9/2015 at 11:56 AM, Roj said:

Yes the car runs and drives fine, the figure of 1 of 107 was information I LOOKED UP that 107 Bonneville's were built with the FI unit. 

 

I am curious what is this resource you speak of?

 

I have seen docs at the GM Heritage Center and there were a lot more built than that.

 

Even other models.

[John348]

On 12/8/2015 at 2:53 PM, padgett said:

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by John348 (see edit history)

[John348]

WHY IS SOMEONE (SAME PERSON) BRINGING UP THREADS FROM YEARS AGO. I JUST DELETED A COMMENT I MADE TO A COMMENT THAT WAS 2 YEARS OLD, SORRY THIS IS RATHER WEIRD. i HAVE NOTICED IT OVER THE LAST 48 HR'S

[padgett]

Just in case anyone is still interested, the 57 Bonne unit was stamped steel and the entire unit was enclosed in a airtight steel enclosure (the turkey roaster). The air cleaner fed the turkey roaster. Meanwhile the 57 Chev was a single aluminum cast unit with attatched air cleaner. Pontiac changed to a unit similar to the Chev in 58 so the steel one was one year only.

 

I imagine either POCI or Jim Mattison (PHS) would have the actual production numbers.

 

From memory but the distributer was a two piece affair: the FI pump unit dropped in the block first, then the distributor.

 

Personally have always preferred FI cars.

 

ps AFAIR the Rochester FI was only around 500 cfm and carbs were considered better for racing.

[bubba]

on the topic of "They are still out there",  last fall a friend of mine told me that there is a house down the block from him that has an old car in the driveway with a for sale sign in the window.  The house was not out in the open but could be seen from the major road nearby if you really looked for it.  I made him go over and look and yes it was a 58 Pontiac with a four barrel carb put on it BUT he had the original fuel injection parts in the garage.  He bought it new.  By the time he got back to me it was already sold.  Turns out he had it out there for days with no sale but my luck he sells it for not much money as soon as I found out about it.  My dad bought a 58 Chieftain new and it was the worst car he ever owned.  When he went to trade it in for an Olds 88 it would conk out at every red light so he couldn't stop or it wouldn't start again. I wonder if some how he was stopping me from making a big mistake!  The next Pontiac he let into the family was a 1972 Lemans for my sister bought new.  I took care of that car and it taught me how to be a mechanic.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by bubba (see edit history)

[padgett]

Back in the day Rochester FIs had problems both with leaking cranking signal valves (used to fix with a TCS switch) that made the mixture way to rich and clogging injectors (they could screw apart so you could clean the screens). Gas was often poor quality and with added dirt back then.

 

Add to a lack of people who understood them & by the early 70's the complete price for a Rochester FI was under $100 for everything or $40 plus a carb and manifold. Had a 57 steel plenium on my mantle for years until somebody at POCI talked me out of it.

 

Being a GMI student at the time I had access to many internal things, had a friend at Detroit Diesel who could buy nozzles rejected for too high a flow by the pound and the Swartz Creek parts house had lots of FI parts with an employee discount. For a late (63-65) large plenium I could hog out the  passage to somewhere closing on 900 cfm (castings were so porous I usually had to smooth the voids with epoxy afterwards) & still keep "enough" venturi signal. Since there were no specs, the FI was never protested. Add in a Delcotonic ignition 1111023 or 1111064 AFAIR and a built 327 with double hump heads could wind to the moon.

 

Interesting thing back then was that for a broke kid going to GMI on the GI-Bill, a Corvette was the least expensive thing a squirrel could race SCCA because parts were everywhere: last years Goodyear Blue Streaks were cheap and 15x8 'vette wheels were $15 in Detroit. It did require a lot of sweat equity if cubic money was not available.

[=diego=]

11 hours ago, John348 said:

WHY IS SOMEONE (SAME PERSON) BRINGING UP THREADS FROM YEARS AGO. I JUST DELETED A COMMENT I MADE TO A COMMENT THAT WAS 2 YEARS OLD, SORRY THIS IS RATHER WEIRD. i HAVE NOTICED IT OVER THE LAST 48 HR'S

 

I'm guessing you're an elder and are a bit confused, but rest easy – anyone can respond to a post no matter how old it is.

 

For Padgett:

 

Quote

I imagine either POCI or Jim Mattison (PHS) would have the actual production numbers.

 

POCI is just a club. PHS is an invoice service with some records, but most records at the GMHC.

[John348]

1 hour ago, =diego= said:

I'm guessing you're an elder and are a bit confused, but rest easy – anyone can respond to a post no matter how old it is.

 

No it is not that I am older, as a matter of fact I am one of the few under 60 years old on this site, so I think you misunderstood my comment, I guess I should have been clearer..............

A member is just making post to threads that ended  anywhere from 2 to 7 years ago and that was throwing me off. This thread  was over a few years ago that's all. I just find it odd that someone is searching up old topics and starting them up like it was the topic started 2 hours ago Thats all.

Never safe to presume one's age and can be interpreted as insulting when you are assuming I have dementia and I am older then what I am 

Edited July 18, 2017 by John348 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Heck that was only a year and a half ago. Yesterday to some & thought there was new interest.

[=diego=]

4 hours ago, John348 said:

 

Never safe to presume one's age and can be interpreted as insulting when you are assuming I have dementia and I am older then what I am 

 

Never suggested senility or anything insulting. In a hobby involving several generations of men and women, some will embrace the Internet better than others.

[padgett]

Well some of us were on the DARPA/ARPAnet.

Edited July 19, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)