R.White Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 GOOD THINKING AGAIN, JACK! I remember a similar thing when a workmate of mine came to me with his car. He said he had done a "service" on it but it was running worse than before with a tapping sound. Turns out the guy had fitted sparking plugs with too long a reach. Fortunately on that occasion no damage was done and I realised it was the plugs before pulling the head. I greatly value your suggestions. There is no substitute for experience. thanks, Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 I may have got this bit wrong so please correct me if I have. The slightly loose valve spring may be down to a bent retaining pin (as a previous post stated) so I assume the easiest thing to do would be to replace the pin. However, I am now sure that the knock I am hearing is not coming from the No.1 exhaust valve spring. Using a large screwdriver, I increased tension on the valve spring with the engine running by prying it from the top but it made no difference to the noise at all. Using a feeler gauge in the tappets (engine still running) I detected no change in the knock. Using the stethoscope type method, the noise could not be detected from the valve gear however, it could be heard more clearly from the head. I have also been listening to the tapping noise while using a strobe lamp connected to No.1 lead. I now have a white mark on the pulley which I believe on this engine (looking at the manual) runs at crankshaft speed. The knock and the light perfectly coincides with the line at each rotation... it follows that there is just one tap per crankshaft revolution. The tap coincides with No.1 cylinder at the point of combustion. Am I right to presume from this there could be a problem with No 1 piston.? I suppose this test can eliminate the No.1 exhaust valve theory as it (and the inlet valve) would be closed for combustion in this cylinder? Ray.This is where In have got to. Any more suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 If you take the plug lead off number 1 while running and the noise goes away, there is reason to look closely at the piston and rod in number 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 11, 2015 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 If you take the plug lead off number 1 while running and the noise goes away, there is reason to look closely at the piston and rod in number 1. The sound is reduced significantly doing this test. No.1 piston and rod will now be investigated. I thought I had tried this before but maybe I didn't. Thanks Spinneyhill and everyone else for your guidance. I will report back with progress. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 So you DIDN'T do that earlier....... http://forums.aaca.org/topic/257783-four-cylinder-engine-noise/?p=1377548....... It seems you'll be dropping the pan.......NOT fun.Tell us when you get there....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I didn't think dropping the pan was all that arduous. Remove the oil pump, the splash shields and unbolt the pan. No suspension pieces or cross member to worry about... The oil float is a little fiddly when re-assembling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Hello again! I have been prevented from contacting the forum. The AACA website was "blocked by the network administrator" hence the radio silence; I was, however, able to receive email notification of ongoing threads. Progress on the engine so far has been slow with work getting in the way. I have removed the pan and examined the big end bearings. I have taken up the play so all clearances are between at 0.0015" and 0.002"according to 'Plastigauge'. A little scraping of the high spots was required but nothing much. As expected, No.1 was worst but from what I can see, the problem might have been caused by oil starvation. There seems to be rather less oil dripping from the front of the engine so I plan on cleaning out the oil gallery. If someone has blown this tube through with compressed air can they give me any advice about how they did it. I think it would be necessary to disconnect the gauge or it might be damaged. I am tempted to be sure it is clean by getting to the end of it but that will require removal of the rad then the timing gear cover. I am unsure if this oil gallery is open at the end to lubricate the timing gears; in which case will the camshaft gear will need to be removed to gain access or is there a hole in the gear wheel?? There seems to be no certainty in confirming whether the oil flow from the small holes in the tube to the bearings has been resumed by blowing compressed air through it . Edited June 19, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't be sure this is the original but here's a photo showing my timing gear. No holes, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogillio Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Way over my head brother. Nice thread though. I always learn something here! I plan a 26 engine rebuild.....maybe this winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Mike that photo is the first I have seen of a Dodge timing gear arrangement. Obviously, mine doesn't have the chain wheel in the way. One thing that surprised me was to discover that the bearings are of the shell type. Rogillio, thanks for the compliment. I am sure you will find answers here when you take on your rebuild. The starting point is that my engine appears to be in pretty good condition apart from this knocking sound. The crank pins are excellent; I obtained a good micrometer reading with no ovality. The camshaft looks new as do the pistons and there is no scoring of the bores. I just hope I can fix the problem...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machinist_Bill Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Here is a photo that might be your engine Ray. Count your main bearings. It also shows your oiling system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 Thanks Bill. Sorry to have wasted your time but I should have said "that photo is the first I have seen of a 5 main bearing Dodge timing gear arrangement from the front" . I have that picture from the Faxon book but it shows the view looking forward. Thanks for posting anyway. I am having second thoughts about tearing down the front of the engine if the camshaft gear has to come off to gain access to the oil pipe - my luck is that it will be on there tight.! Going back to clearing out any obstruction with compressed air - the air line nozzle fits quite snugly into the underside of the pressure relief valve fitting but I am not sure if that would be any good? Presumably, the valve will divert the air from where I want it to go if the pressure is too high?? I may need to think again. Also, I need to blank off the pipe which goes to the gauge or it could damage it. My immediate problem is that all my pipe fittings/ old gauges etc. are BSP thread!! No one said life would be easy! Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Be very careful with compressed air. You will blow the muck out of all the holes in the gallery into whatever they exit into - for example, bearings. You will probably need something to soften the muck to get it out, so a suitable fluid along with the compressed air would be best, along with a wire (brush). Either way, you will have to remove everything the oil way lubricates to make sure the muck is out. If a hole is blocked, the air will come out everywhere else and not necessarily move that blockage. If oil ways are blocked as you suspect, the engine will need a damn good clean. Clean it all as best you can and then you might consider a couple of changes of good detergent oil when you get it back together, to clean it out further. The trouble with all this is that you will move all the muck around in the engine. If you loosen some and don't remove it, where will it go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 I am listening, Spinneyhill. Obviously, I cannot know if you have experience of this particular engine but your advice is clearly universal. The difficulty I have is that (with the pan removed) although I can see the gallery and I can apply compressed air to it from one end, I have no way of seeing whether the operation has been successful or not. I have considered sending a spray of WD40 onto the holes while applying the air - to see if anything is coming out of all the holes. I don't see how I can send oil or detergent through the gallery as it will need to be applied from the bottom of the check valve. Perhaps the valve assembly should be removed. Even then, there is a 90 degree turn to get into the gallery and the possible blockage problem on this engine is at the opposite end. I can see now why the engine was overfilled with oil ! Despite my suspicions, I cannot be sure that the gallery is actually blocked at the end; it just looked less oily at that end and with the bearing clearances now set correctly and the tapping sound still present on No. 1 cylinder when the engine was run, I thought perhaps it was a case of oil starvation making the bearing knock. The crank pin is not worn oval - with a micrometer it measures 1.567 ( if I remember correctly) in all positions. The other option I have is to remove the radiator (not a problem) and the timing cover to expose the camshaft gear. This gear wheel is held on by several bolts (wired) and needs to be removed to gain access to the open end of the gallery. I suspect the gear will be tight and may need a puller of some kind. Behind the gear there seems to be a reduction nozzle at that point which I assume can be unscrewed but here I am in unchartered territory - unless someone can confirm from their own experience. At the moment, I am undecided what to do. Feeling unwell doesn't help Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I THINK your engine is laid out the same as mine.On the left side very near the rear of the block is a screw as shown in the scan.It's a long screw and It MAY have the spark advance bell crank bracket nutted to that screw.If you remove the screw you can safely blast the inner oil feed with compressed air as recommended in the Dodge Bible.When you replace the screw be sure it bottoms out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hi Craig. The difference is that my engine (5 mains) has an external oil feed to the back of the engine where it connects to the bottom of a T piece; with what I assume to be 1) a check valve before the start of the internal gallery and and 2) the gauge line. My suspicion is that the gallery may be blocked at the end where it feeds the timing gears and No 1 bearings. Thanks for sending the picture anyway. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 O.K. I have tried compressed air. I have 100 p.s.i. available. The supply pipe to the gauge is now blanked off. Applied to the supply end of the gallery, air is only exiting from the first few holes; suggesting a blockage further along the gallery. As Spinneyhill opined, unless the clear holes are sealed, there is no pressure to clear the blockage. That is supposing there is a blockage and the air is not simply dissipating through the first holes! I am thinking of ways to temporarily seal the clear holes but getting to them is not that easy. There seems no way of adding anything like a detergent to the compressed air unless I get specialist equipment. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) I have confirmed to the best of my ability that the oil gallery is not clear. I have take a simple oil can and squirted engine oil into the holes in the gallery and it appears to flow freely from the suspect hole but not from the far end which feeds the timing gears and presumably front main. The confusing thing is that the hole which would seem to supply No.1 seems clear but I think further investigation is needed. I have tried the compressed air thing again but I fail to see how that can possibly work! Ray. Edited June 21, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Can you poke a piece of wire in there? Black steel tie wire is pretty flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 All I can say is good you dug into things now instead of a costly later....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 I tried using an old speedo cable inner from the inlet point but it wouldn't go round the two 90 degree bends. i shall probably have to remove the check valve but I am always nervous of breaking something which hasn't been touched in 90 years. My luck is it will be rusted in the block. I am now resolved to attacking the problem from the other end where the pipe seems to be blocked. The chances are that I will find no blockage at all but unless I look I shall never know for sure and what I want to do is eliminate the suspected problem once and for all. I can't use the car like it is and so I have nothing to loose. If the suspected oil starvation is imaginary, the cylinder head will be coming off and No.1 piston removed. It's hopefully something I can resolve. The problem with knocks is that they can sometimes be very difficult to diagnose. This is one of those occasions when I miss my old Dad. He had truly vast experience of engines of all types and would know instantly what to do. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machinist_Bill Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Take your time Ray and think this out. Sometimes it helps to walk away from it for awhile. It's late where your at so sleep on it. It will all come together........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 With the greatest respect, Bill, I have had precious little else on my mind for days now. However, I know what you mean about walking away from it for a while - and that is good advise indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 This is the type of thing that keeps me up at night. I feel your pain, Ray. The only solace will be that great feeling when you finally figure the problem out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Hi Taylormade. I have been following your restoration. A proper job! You have come up against all sorts of different problems that have been overcome one way or another. I take inspiration from such craftsmanship. Now here's a thing. I have checked the No.1 main bearing with Plastigauge (in two places; 90 degrees apart) and it comes out at 0.004. That is big for a main bearing; even a non pressurised one. It should be between 0.001 and 0.002. Even 2 thou. is a bit sloppy for a main. Otherwise, there are no signs of degradation and It again points to the bearing being if not starved, then a bit short of oil. I am finding it difficult to imagine how this could be knocking - unless the other mains are worn - because it is a 5 bearing crank - but stranger things have happened! Ray. Edited June 22, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) I am now at the stage where the timing gears are exposed. The first potential problem is that someone in their wisdom has fitted a fibre camshaft timing gear. I know these things can break up and getting it off without damaging it might be difficult. An interesting thing is that there are marks on the fibre gear wheel but no corresponding marks on the crankshaft gear as one would expect. I will need to put my own marks on before removing the gear or I will be in all sorts of trouble My friend's 1929 Alvis has a fibre timing gear and while it has the advantage of quiet running, they get chewed up on a regular basis. Unfortunately for him, no other gears are apparently available. A Synthetic timing gear for the Dodge is listed in Myers' catalogue. Interestingly, I found that while the general area was oily and pretty dirty, there was no sign of clean fresh oil. The end of the offending gallery is just visible but totally inaccessible with the fibre gear in the way. The gear's six bolts are all wired together. If the gear is removed in tact, would it be advisable to replace it with a new one anyway? It is normal to replace them in a modern car if changing the camshaft but I would have thought our old engines would not stress the gear as much.? Ray. Edited June 22, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) My thought on the fiber timing gear is if it's in good shape now it will remain in good shape probably longer than you will....... My '59 Chevy with a 235 straight 6 had 127,000 miles on it when I got it and the pistons were SHOT but the cylinders were still barely in spec to not require work.I installed .001" over rod bearings and a set of new standard pistons.While I was in there I checked out the cam and fiber camshaft gear.......still like new so....... I presume there are still shims left in the bearing caps? Edited June 22, 2015 by cahartley (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 My immediate question would be how do you remove a fibre gear without damaging it? I would imagine there is a real risk of damage using a 3 leg puller? The answer to your question, yes the shims are all still present and I have been able to remove sufficient material to restore the bearing clearances. The use of shells was a surprise! Fortunately, the crankshaft is perfect as is the camshaft. The pistons look like new and the bores are unmarked. All told this is a good engine but it does have a lubrication problem probably caused through lack of use for year prior to my ownership. Ray. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) You might find that a couple of the retaining bolt holes will be threaded.I cant imagine there isn't a way to pull that gear. Although with that many retaining bolts it may not be a pressed fit.I also suspect that you will find the timing marks with a good clean up. Just some of my thoughts. Edited June 23, 2015 by JACK M (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hello Jack. Fortunately, I have resolved the problem and managed to remove the fibre gear by gently levering it off in tact with the aid of a couple of long screwdrivers. There are no threaded holes in it and no marks at all on the crankshaft gear so I have highlighted the tooth that meshes between the two 0 0 marks on the fibre gear. The good news is that I have removed the nozzle on the end of the tube and found and cleaned out the blockage. The obstruction was strange. What seemed to be a small collection of brush bristles. I would have had the engine zipped up again by now but I wanted to clean out the oil gallery with compressed air and light oil but the compressor has burned out. Never buy anything with the name Sealey on it - absolute rubbish. I tried to build one good compressor out of two broken ones but they don't build stuff like they used to. Thanks to everyone who have helped with this. I just hope I have done enough to remedy the knock. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Clean up the fibre timing gear and look at it very carefully. My Studebaker has one and it knocked for a while before it failed. A Studebaker expert heard and said it was on the way; I got about another 100 miles out of it before it broke a couple of teeth off. I replaced it with a used gear. When I overhauled the engine later, the used gear was better than the new one I had bought so it went back on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 We also have seen inconsistency with fibre timing gears, especially in moderns. Volvo, for example; some go on for a hundred thousand miles and more while others fail much sooner. It also seems to make no difference how the car is driven. There has always been the tendency for manufacturers to go for the cheap option if they think they can get away with it. While these gears have been around for many years, there is more rubbish being used in engines and transmissions than there use to be; plastic timing chain tensioners on AUDI and VW for example. Then there is the whole subject of sintered or powdered metal gears. It's all built in obsolescence. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Ray, are you going to pull the number 1 piston/rod out (while pan is off) and see how the little end looks? You will have to remove the head to do it but you can get away with re-use of the head gasket for testing it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 No Mike. If the knock persists when the the bearings are getting plenty of oil then the piston is about the last thing left. I would rather whip the pan off again and remove the head later, rather than go to the expense of a head gasket - remember, double the cost to me with shipping, duties etc. - if it doesn't need it. Probably flawed logic. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) On listening to your advice, Mike, I am considering Plan B. Ray. Edited June 24, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I tried to build one good compressor out of two broken ones but they don't build stuff like they used to. AGREED !! I bought a cheepo for my race trailer as I only use it once a week in the summer. Lasted most of one season. It broke a reed valve which is not available, I made one out of brass shim stock, it worked the rest of the season is all. Get a brand name and at least you can search out parts. Glad you found your blockage. Edited June 24, 2015 by JACK M (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) With the cylinder head removed I found what I thought was evidence of a gudgeon pin fault. I noticed some slight damage to No.1 cylinder wall. I realised it was either the cause of the knock or the alternative explanation; an historic event. When I removed the piston and rod it became immediately apparent that it was the latter. The piston was in good condition; a modern replacement, I believe, with a gudgeon pin secured by cir clips. At least I KNOW that the piston and rod is fine. The question is: will a better supply of oil quieten the knock? I am at a stopping point right now while I wait for parts. I plan to replace the valve springs and keeper pins but ideally, I should replace the valve guides as well. It is possible to move the valves from side to side when open; but how much wear is too much? I have replaced valve guides before but reading about it, the job on a Dodge Four would seem to be potentially tricky with the risk of cracking the casting ! Ray. Edited June 28, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Hi Ray, the guides are press fit? I didn't look at the MIM yet... I wonder if it would be possible to locally heat and expand the holes in the block to minimize the forces involved?Interesting about the piston. Any clues as to who made it? Maybe it would be worth replacing the other 3 with same while you're in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 Hi Mike. Yes, as far as I know the valve guides are a tight interference fit. What I have done before is the same as I have done for cylinder liners. I leave the guides in the freezer over night. It makes them much easier to fit. It's a good idea to pass a reamer through the holes in the block to be sure they are straight and clear but nothing more. A little heat of the general area would also help. They are ideally pressed, rather than knocked in. I would replace all the guides, springs and valves if the car was likely to be used a lot but given that it hardly does any mileage in a year I don't think it's worth the trouble. As it happens, the valves are seating well but If the keeper pins are bent then that will have the same effect as spring weakness so replacing them restores the tension anyway. One trick that the old timers might have done is to add a shim to increase the spring tension but it's a cheap skate practice and besides, greater spring tension causes faster wear. So long as there is no valve 'bounce' - and I haven't noticed it - I will be happy just to get the engine back together - hopefully, without the knock! As to the pistons. All four are fairly new looking with modern gudgeon pins held in with proper cir clips. What was totally unexpected is that there is no wear to the bores and the pistons are standard. The bores measure 3.9" (or 99mm) which again is standard spec... At first I thought the block must have been re - sleeved but it definitely has not. The conclusion is that this engine block has done very few miles indeed! I have always thought that the odometer reading of just over 98,000 was probably correct, due mainly to the wear in the transmission, steering, etc. Perhaps it is and the engine is a replacement. The head is painted in a different colour so I doubt it is original to this engine. Whatever the situation - and I have no history apart from it's Australian origins - it seems that I have a pretty good engine. I just want to resolve the knock. One thing that happened (which admittedly I wasn't expecting) was that when I prised the fibre gear off the camshaft, the boss (behind it) on which it was mounted, moved round. The camshaft position had moved; thus I lost the valve timing. Fortunately, in the unexpected absence of any timing marks on the crankshaft gear, I had previously made a mark where the 00 marks on the camshaft gear meshed with the crankshaft gear. As it turned out, as the head was coming off anyway, restoring the setting was quite easy. With No.1 piston 8 degrees after TDC on the induction stroke and the exhaust valve closed, the fibre timing gear could be meshed with the crankshaft gear. The original timing was confirmed by lining up the '1' mark on the flywheel where it appears in the window in the bell housing and the marks that I made previously lined up perfectly. I have refitted the piston and rod. Just waiting on the new head gasket. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 With the cylinder head removed I found what I thought was evidence of a gudgeon pin fault. I noticed some slight damage to No.1 cylinder wall. I realised it was either the cause of the knock or the alternative explanation; an historic event. When I removed the piston and rod it became immediately apparent that it was the latter. The piston was in good condition; a modern replacement, I believe, with a gudgeon pin secured by cir clips. At least I KNOW that the piston and rod is fine. The question is: will a better supply of oil quieten the knock? Ray. As oil is admitted to the inside oil delivery tube from the front I think if anything was to go wrong from insufficient oil it would happen from back to front.From another post the valves are remarkably forgiving but now that you're that far anyway might as well git 'er dun....... Doing things twice (OR more) gets old REAL fast....... Thus far the bottom line seems to be you still can't positively identify the source of the knock....... The rod bearings would have to be quite loose in order to knock on those large journals........how much did you have to take up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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