Are we losing this war, and how bad?

[Guest]

For OLDS CAR NUT<P>I do not think I was unfair to your friend RON. HE is the one who claimed the factory air in his '61 Cad didnt work well, and said his solution was to put in a "tack on" system from Vintage Air.<P>His remark shows he simply didnt understand what his car is all about...what to do about a malfunctioning component. What you SHOULD do....is LEARN as much as you can about it..and FIX it ( or take it to someone who knows automotive air conditioning of that era ....<P>It is one thing to "hot rod" an ordinary "averge man's car" from the 1930's...I can understand that..damn things were cheaply made...at a time when the average guy did NOT go on long cross country trips at our speeds, so when they were designing them.... no reason to add the costs to the cheap cars, of giving them that capability.<P>If you like the styling of the 1930's cars...but want to drive regularly in air conditioned comfort, at speeds that will not make you a traffic hazzard, I can see "hot rodding". In fact, I have particpated in some pretty crazy hot rod building myself...( how about the time we "butchered" an MG TC so we could "cobble" a flat-head Ford V-8 into it...gawd...what a mess we made...but the son-of-a-[censored] sure could GO like hell (couldnt stop or turn worth a damn tho....!).<P>But...C'mon...guys...an "factory" air conditioner in a '61 General Motors car not being adequate...get real....<P>If it isn't fixed right..of COURSE it wont be adequate. <P>So, I am not withdrawing my "crack" that if RON had worked a little harder in finding out what that car was all about, he would have found out HOW the thing SHOULD work and either fixed it properly himself, or got hold of a guy who knows automotive air conditioning of that era, and fixed it right.<P>Please understand ...guys...what I am trying to do here..is get you guys to THINK. THINK thru what you are talking about...and try and get involved enough to do some research. The more you learn about the history of technology, the more fun you can have with it...and the less likely you are to have a frustrating disappointing time with your "pride and joy"...!<P>Education...LEARNING about automotive technology...and how it evolved...that is what we should focus on...hopefully..."rattling a few cages" will start you guys thinking.<P>PFH

[Guest]

Dear PFH, I sure can't wait until Father Ron gets back from the Founders Tour to respond to you!<P>I find an interesting factor running through this discussion. It was mentioned earlier and fluffed off like nothing. If you're so concerned with the destruction of these "classic cars", why don't you buy them? Stop wasting time on the computer and put your money where your mouth is. Let me know when you find the engine and transmission for that '32 Imperial, will you? As far as the Dodge with the 318, what's so special about that? It seems to me that wasn't a rare and unusual item. Maybe we should take up a collection, buy the Nash and donate it to the AACA Museum. <P>I better get off here now and rebuild my Harley engine before I get silly and want to make a Boss Hogg out of it.

[Guest]

Hi Alan:<P>Sorry..I think you have me confused with another "chatter"...the theme of my "posts" is : <P>that while I share the disappointment of people who see automotive history destroyed (when an "original" car is turned into a hot-rod), I also see the other side of the story....just about every hot rod I have ever examined closely was a superb example of yankee ingenuity and quality workmanship, and got a guy the car he wanted...<P>Bottom line...best thing...is to try and educate people...so they can make appropriate decisions on what to do with their own private property...that best meets THEIR needs.<P>As far as Ron goes...bring him on...a rousing exchange about the technical aspects of GMC refrigeration units circa 1961..would be fun and educational.<P>I strongly recommend that we use this forum (and any other forum we have access to)..as a mechanism for exhange of info...all of us can learn much from other people's car troubles...!<P>I know that Peter is unhappy with me chewing on Ron...but ..let's be fair...we should ALL be subject to critique....! In Ron's case..he made a statement which I shouldnt have been the only ne to "jump" on. The fact is...modern factory air does what it is supposed to..IF properly serviced. He made a lot of extra work for himself by failing to look into what his factory air was all about, and instead substituting VINTAGE AIR. By the way, I am familiar with VINTAGE AIR products...they are TOP NOTCH...and if I was going to "start from scratch" I would most certainly put them on the top of my list of chosen suppliers.<P>But here...a properly maintained factory air system in ANY American car...will do what it is supposed to. Typically, poor a/c performance is due to leaks, resulting in low freon levels, and/or suction valve-expansion valve troubles, easily repaired. While the modern VINTAGE AIR supplied components are certainly top-notch, those GMC systems will, when maintained properly, actually ICE UP on very humid days. Too ad nobody jumped on Ron BEFORE he went to all that work...!<P>Again, the benefit of this form of communication, is that it should expose us to new and conflicting ideas, and hel us THINK....The best way to benefit, is to LISTEN..and be subject to CRITIQUE. We cant benefit from info, if the info. isn't subject to the harsh light of hard clear analysis.

[Guest]

Someone just sent me a "PRIVATE MESSAGE"...from this "site". Sorry...I am not very bright with computers..(some say I am dumber than a cabbage..and they may be right...!) May I suggest if you have a technical issue...you put it out here in the open so we can all benefit from it..? And may I also suggest...that if we use our REAL names, that might help us keep the focus on the legit. technical issues...and lessen the temptation to get personal and silly..?<P>Pete Hartmann

[56clipper]

peterg is right, the original thought is being lost here for obvious reasons. In an attempt to refocus...<P>I think Dave@moon made the most salient point that's gone more or less unresponded to here. Rodders, whether they be street, customs, whatever, are much more visible then those of us with originals and restorations. I agree 100% with his point that on a nice day, you see many more rods than originals. <P>We all know the originals are out there. We do, as he said, need to get visible. I know I don't drive my car enough, mostly because it needs some tranny work and I don't 100% trust it at this point. Yet every time I see a rod out on the road, I think 3 things: [1] I admire the work and effort put into them. [2] I think that it's too bad its not original and [3] Damn, I wish I was driving my Packard so I could show them what a real car looks like! <P>I don't think this should be a war. People are allowed to do what they want to with their cars. If we, as the protectors of this history are not out there showing people what these cars properly look like, then why the heck shouldn't they rod them? That's all they see anyway. It's up to us to become visible. You know the saying -- out of sight, out of mind. If a bunch of people showed up with their original cars at the local cruise night as suggested, I think you certainly would get more attention than a lot of the rods. I think of rods kind of the same as I do with 55-57 Chevy's (not to knock them, but...) if you've seen one, you've seen them all. I was at a show that had 35 '55 Chevys, 20 '56 Chevys and 40 '57 Chevys. There was one 39 Buick, one 57 Lincoln, one 41 Cadillac and some others. Many of us there were not looking at the Chevys for the obvious reason. We wanted something different. There's room for both camps, but we are not making it a point to bring ourselves to them.<P>We sow the seeds of our own future or our own destruction. Hide the car in the garage, and the rodder wins and doesn't learn to appreciate. Drive it around, and you give people something else to see, think about, and appreciate.<P>Now that was a lot longer than I anticipated. I must go drive to Lancaster now. (2 hours!)

[1913Moline]

I concur with the previous message. I registered and drove two of my "stock" vehicles to the Minnesota Street Rod Show. I had registration number 10,485. I drove them right through the center of the activity and there were tons of people that were interested. Most didnt even know what a Pierce-Arrow was, and I dont think that anyone recognized the name Kissel.<P>Demonstrating that our cars can be reliably driven is the BEST way to build interest in preserving rather than totally modifying early vehicles. Preaching about what is right and wrong about what someone else does with their property doesnt gain many ears.<P>There is plenty of room for all of us in the hobby. Just because I am not a street rodder, doesnt mean I cant appreciate going to a car show with over 10,000 cars!!!

[56clipper]

I'll echo that "amen" and add a Hallelujah for good measure.

[Guest]

1937 HD 45 asks: ' why would a Packard V8 be anymore expensive to overhaul than any other mid 50's engine'.<P>Probably not. BUT, one heck of ALOT more expensive than rebuilding or just buying a modern SBC.<BR>AGAIN. let me repeat that obtaining machine work and parts is bocomming more and more difficult! Here is an example of some parts price example for the PackardV8:<BR>valves: $15-18 each.<BR>oil pump $125-$400 depending on far u want to go with it and the $400 WON'T finish it.<BR>head gaskets: $50-100 pair<BR>other misc gaskets at least $20each/pair<BR>i could go on and on.<P>SO, is there someone out there thats going to try to tell me that a modern SBC is just as expensive???????? OR, any less of an engine??

[Guest]

I agree !

[Guest]

Dear PFH, I am very familiar with GM a/c and the problems trying to get original components to keep it working. Many times you can only get after market pieces and need to adapt them to keep it running. Seems to make sense to me to update the failure prone items with modern parts and keep the old components stuffed in the corner somewhere. Now, unless you have a stash of R-12 laying around, you'll have to convert to R-134A anyhow. If you saw the installation done by Vintage Air on Big Red('61 Caddy convertible) you would see they incorporated many on the original components, but I'll let Father Ron defend himself, I don't need to do that.<P>As I stated before, buy the vehicles up so they don't get cut up into rods and customs.<P>Another thread all throughout is that you don't see "antique cars" out on the roads. Now let's see, there are close to 10 AACA national and divisional "TOURS" a year. They range from 75 to 350+ cars per tour. Tour length is 3 days to a week. Do any of you go on the tours???? They stop at schools(for kids to see the cars), town squares, fire departments, old folks homes and various other points of interest, not only to take in the attractions in the area, but for the locals to see the cars as well. There's a tour going on right now that has probably 150+ antique cars on it driving all over the place.<P>Go on the tours, you may make some new friends. <P>If you think you're losing the war, it's only because you want to think that way.<P>As for the rods and customs and the car cruises, remember, they accept everything from an antique to something just driven off the showroom floor. Point being made, there's a much larger pool to draw from for their events.<P>Finally, it's a good thing the auto manufacturers don't feel the same way as some of you do. You'ld never be able to buy a new vehicle because someone would put on a glass-pack or hang fuzzy dice from the mirror. Hell, you may even change the stock wheels for aluminum ones and put in different floor mats. You may even want to install curb feelers or hang a cup holder on the door. Did you put on factory plug wires the last time you changed them or did you just get a set at the auto parts? How about that oil filter??? <P>Or are you selective in keeping you car the way it was??

[Dave@Moon]

Alan,<P>10 AACA tours/year averaging (let's say) 200 cars each. That's 2000 cars. Let's say they average 5 days in length. That's 10,000 car/days of street exposure for the entire AACA touring schedule.<P>The comings and goings to Kisselman's WI hot rod show alone had more exposure to that aspect of the hobby than the that. And all of us probably know of at least one annual hot rod show in our state that is comparably sized, to say nothing of <I>their</I> tours.<P>That's not to criticize the AACA's touring activities in any way. But it does speak volumes as to the work that must be done to get our cars in circulation more often. Depending on just one club's activities to keep active just won't do it.<P>I'm much more interested in exposure on the local level, individual owners using their cars in visible ways. Even if you just park the car out in front of the house once and a while it helps other's to know what's available beyond <I>Car Craft</I>.

[R W Burgess]

Dave@moon, You seem to be ignoring all the little tours that regions across this nation have every month. My region, Northern Neck, Va. had four tours and /or get-togethers, and two cruise-ins just in the month of June. Strong regional clubs are essential in getting exposure for the AACA.As a matter of fact that's where all Officers, and Directors originate from. Without local regional support, where would the AACA be today?

[Guest]

For ALAN:<P>If you are so determined to defend Ron's action in changing out his factory air on his '61 Cad ( see previous post ) to "after-market" (rather than just fix the thing so it works the way it should...) and so convinced you are that well informed on GM factory air of that era, perhaps you can educate us what parts of these systems you feel are "failure prone" (to my knowledge, about the only parts you CANT get for early '60's GM factory air set ups, is the amplfier and transducer panels for the "Climate Control", which first appeared in the 1964 model year )......<P>Pete Hartmann

[rodlars]

Just an interesting question that relates to this post. Has anyone ever seen an original or retored 40 Willys coupe? I've been going to car shows for over 30 years, I have thousands of photos that I have taken in the past dozen years but I honestly can't recall seeing one. Were they all made into Gassers and Gasser wannabes? I suppose that is one part of our automotive heritage that may be on the road to extiction.<P>On a more positive note, I attended an event at the CCCA Gilmore Museum in Hickory Corners, MI today and took another stroll through the barns. (I never get tired of looking at these cars each time I visit) Beleive me when I tell you, there really are some fine examples of our automotive heritage preserved out there. Sure we can't save them all, but the ones that we do manage to restore/preserve sure look stunning. As a side note, the Mopar show that was being put on had very few 100% pure stock show vehicles. I would think maybe 10% featured zero modifications whatsoever. There were quite a few well restored cars that had headers in the place of the stock manifolds or some other minor modification. Owners are finishing cars to their own personal tastes and since they are the ones paying the bills, that would seem entirely reasonable. Heck, I'm guilty of having a few performance "enhancements" on my present vehicle and no, it's not because I am too mechanically inept to make do with the factory configuration. I just wanted a level of performance that was not practical for Chrysler Corp to offer on a fully warrantied new car back in 1971.<P>I still contend, to each his/her own. It's not as if the world is running out of cars or anything like that.

[1937hd45]

Rodlars, What a timely question! Tonite at the cruse nite at Marcus Dairy I saw my first STOCK 1940 Willys, a four door sedan. Original interior with a light green repaint. Willys prices going they way they are this one may not stay stock for long.

[Guest]

Wanna know why it is so hard to find a "stock" pre war Willys, ( or other similar "cheapo" economy car....and just about impossible to find one of the big-engined super luxury cars with an "engine swap".....DRIVE THEM and SEE ! It makes SENSE !<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest]

RODLARS:<P>I agree completely...it make sense for us to try and EDUCATE our fellow hobbyists as to what the technology of the different eras is all about....but is a little presumptious for us to try and tell someone ELSE what to do with their PRIVATE PROPERTY...!<P>PFH

[Dave@Moon]

It might be presumptious to <I>tell</I> someone what to do with their private property. However, what reasonable group of like minded individuals could or should be expected to sit silently as they see their focus of interest erode?<P>I wouldn't expect the members of my local musicians' guild to sit silently as I proceded to wire my Stradivarius with gold electric amplifier pickups!<P>But hey, it's my violin ain't it? I'm just improving it's performance!<P>If you go down the list of cars at the beginning of this thread, or peruse this month's issue of similar publications, you'll see other examples of automotive material being consumed in the hot rod field that is as least as rare as the creations of Stradivari. Where do <I>you</I> think speaking up is appropriate?

[1937hd45]

Will Charlie Daniles get to play this hopped up fiddle?

[Guest]

Using Stradivari violins or those of any other 17th or 18th century maker of repute if flawed logic anyway as Stradivari would have difficulty recognizing his workmanship as practically all such violins were so drastically altered in the 19th century, with new, sharply angled necks and massive internal reinforcements designed to increase their volume and make them capable of tuning to modern orchestral pitch, if you tried that in their original state they would collapse immediately.<P>The only reason they were so highly valued at the time is that Stradivari fiddles lent themselves best to such drastic alteration while those of many minor makers simply were not robust enough.<P>So much for the romance of Cremona.

[1937hd45]

Thank you Carlton! So Stradivari is the '32 Ford roadster of fiddles, is anyone making one in fiberglass these days? There is a local gal that can faux finish just about any wood grain. This might bring down the cost of the originals.

[Guest]

I've seen damn few '32 fords in original {unaltered?} form mostly because a whole generation considered them the most readily adaptable to what used to be called "souping up" which was limited by the twin evils, imagination and wallet.<P>I have seen some delightful and imaginative original hotrods using the technology and equipment available then, conversely I've been assaulted with some totally outrageous ego trips done to what were perfectly complete and viable candidates for restoration.<P>The best {or worst} case I was personally involved in happened to a '28 Willys- Knight that a local car hustler {who has since fortunately moved south} was offering to a nearby street rod group since he maintained that no collector would pay 2 cents for a sleeve valve sedan, "these cheap Long Island F--ks" he called us, I considered it myself but did'nt have much spare cash then, besides, his prices were generally insane.<P>The car was indeed sold to a street rodder but the engine was sold to my friend Les Cutting to replace the one in his Falcon-Knight that had thrown some valve lugs {irreplaceable} and Les asked me to do the engine swap and make certain everything was running OK.<P>I asked Les what he thought of the Willys becoming a street rod and his reply nonplussed me,"well, I got the motor now, don't I?"<P>To each his own,<P>The car needed paint, interior and chassis work but ran well.

[Guest]

Dave@moon,<P>Give or take - there have been 200million cars built from the late 1800's until 25 years ago. Therefore your anology with the Stradivarius is complete off target. your comparing antique cars to something that had less than a few hundred produced. <P>The reality is the more rare the car, the more apt is to be either preserved or restored to original form.

[Dave@Moon]

Peter,<P>Re-read the original list of cars that I started this thread with, then read your last post. Pay special attention to the Nash-Healy, Chrysler, woody prototype and special order Chevy wagon. If you don't see the incongruity, then I just can't help you.

[Guest]

The EXTREMELY rare acception aside... my statement still stands "...the more rare the car, the more apt is to be either preserved or restored to original form."

[rodlars]

Dave<P>The solution is quite simple. Every time you see a rare car for sale that is at risk of being butchered, buy it before the evil street rodders get to it. What other practical solution is there. Set up an information picket in front of the seller's house espousing the advantages/rightiousness of restoring vs. modifying.<P>Peter G, your point is a valid one. As an example, 1968 Hemi Barracuda and Dart factory race cars are being bought and restored back to "as delivered" condition. They have simply become too valuable to be raced. Apparently many of the SS/A & SS/AA cars that run the national events are copies of originals. Kind of ironic when you think about it. A poor little slant 6 or 318 equipped car being cut on and modified so the genuine article can enjoy retirement in a museum or someone's private collection.

[Guest]

We are not in a war..who's fighting ? Just think of all those old cars that have sat around in junk yards.and behind garages that have been saved and put back on the road by some streetrodder that had VISION and bucks to do it. and I give em credit for it..I am a 63 year old senior who has been hobbying since I was 16 .. (went to my Senior prom in 1958 in a '29 Crysler) and I still think about the 455 Buick siting in the corner..will it fit my 49 plymouth wagon ?

live and let oldwagonman@yahoo.com

[ted sweet]

you just noticed this? Its been going on for 75 years or more

[Restorer32]

Just a few comments based on my experience dealing with antiques, Classics, and the occasional street rod/ modification. We have no problem finding people or shops to do engine machine work, even including babbit bearing work, cast iron welding, etc. Takes some looking but the craftsman are definitely out there. I also suspect that it isn't that much more expensive to rebuild the typical old engine than it is to bebuild a modern version. Just finished a '31 Packard Super 8 and had no insurmountable problems finding parts or services. Not many engines any simpler or easier to bebuild that a flathead Caddy or Packard 8. One note to Pete Hartman...did you notice the 1937 Packard 120 Coupe on E-Bay currently bid to over 30 thou ? The way I see it..you pays your money and you takes your chances..but I've seen many streetrods, even some put out by reputable shops that were, in my opinion, unsafe at any speed as Ralph used to say...