Are we losing this war, and how bad?

[Dave@Moon]

How's that for a loaded topic heading?<P>I think it's time to get back to dicussing matters more germain to the reason we signed on to this site. I recently had a chance to get a free copy of <I>Hemmings' Rod & Performance</I> magazine. If you haven't seen it, it is very much in the form of <I>Cars & Parts</I>, with numerous features and a large section of classifieds. <P>Of course, this magazine is for the modified crowd.<P>I've heard untold defences of street-rodding antique cars repeated here and elsewhere, as I'm sure you have as well. Eventually it gets down to an argument based on possession and rights. <P>And invariably you get to the rationalization: the car wasn't worth restoring and/or wasn't being restored. If you're lucky you gat get a street-rodder to cough this one up: "It's not like we're cutting up 400 point cars."<P>Well listen to these. Every one of these cars was advertised expressly for fodder to the street rod market:<P><I> 1949 Hudson Super Six Coupe, stick shift, nice older paint and interior upgrade, good running, solid CA car, <B>would make great custom</B>, $12K obo....</I>(the photo of this car looks suspiciously like the hill up to the Hershey mansion, and the car looks good enough to belong there and then some)<P><I>NASH-HEALEY: 1953 roadster, yellow/black, 3-spd overdrive, LeMans specs, 6-cyl motor, superb rust-free TX car, older restoration.....<P>1952 Willys Aerolark 2-dr. 46K miles, original: flathead six, paint, interior, straight, rust-free, rare car, restore <B>or build a cool street rod</B>, $5500....</I>(Photo shows car in need of paint and probably interior, but little else)<P><I>MERCURY: 1949 coupe, solid and original, <B>never cut</B> 20 year dry storage, time warp, $9500.....<P>1937 Ford woody, <B>reportedly the remaining one of 2 prototypes produced in Australia</B>, clear CA title, It is not rusted away but needs restoration,....$15K.....<P>1969 Dodge Coronet 500, new paint, rebuilt 318, auto, air, power steering, second owner, clean and nice, FL car, $6900...</I>(I put this one in because I used to have one 10 years ago. There are hundreds of cars like this in the magazine, many of them muscle cars. When you see one you have a history with going away it really makes you mad! )<P><I>Buick Super 1953 convertible, 99% rust free, excellant restoration <B>or custom project</B>, $5K; 1957 Century convertible, 100% rust free, perfect floors, complete with new windshield, needs restoration, $8500....<P>1932 Chrysler Imperial Model CH 5-passenger sedan, 135" wheelbase, rust free car, sidemounts, complete interior, no engine or trans, <B>one of a kind street rod</B>, $9900.....</I><P>Again, remember, these are cars being advertised in a street rod/performance car magazine. They are specifically being offered for sale to be reworked as customs/rods. Notice how many of them are already restored as antiques! <P>Think they're in here by mistake? Lets look at the partially completed future street rods being sold. Every one of these is either under way or (judging by the equipment listed) has been completed in last few years:<P><I>1950 Chevy rare 2-dr all steel wagon special ordered by the U.S. Forest service, 1938 Hupmobile 4-dr project car (has already been radically chopped), 1931 Hudson 4-dr project car (also already chopped), 1936 Dodge 4-dr sedan, 1937 Dodge business coupe, 1931 Chevy 2-door....,</I> and it goes on.<P>If you're interested in the wagon it's painted Prowler Purple and ready to go. There still some assembly required on the others.<P>I could spend hours typing up the more common vehicles being offered up like this, but I hope you're getting the point right about now. We need to do something to shore up the public's appreciation of authentically restored cars. <P>If you read a large number of the ads in the mag, it seems to leave the impression that stock antiques are undrivable today. Time and again you come accross the word "driver", good driver, daily driver, reliable driver, excellant driver, etc. Many times the implication (as I see it) seems to be that these cars somehow "needed" improvement in order to be useful. <P>Today it was 75 degrees and sunny here. I had to go out shopping with my wife. I drove about 75 miles total in suburban America. I saw a tour of about 300 motorcycles, and a number of people out cruising in hot rods. <P>I didn't see a single antique car. <p>[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

Bear something in mind while lamenting this pandering to the populace.<P>These "customs" although in many cases a valid and creative expression of stylistic and mechanical creativity will never enjoy financial parity with restored or well preserved examples of collectible cars as the factors of safety,reliability and parts availability {something to bear in mind when even the sheet metal may have been "altered"} not to mention the custom engines and drive trains which in many cases are tailored to the individual owner's desires with no thought given to extended use or the problems encountered thereby.<BR>Indeed some may command prices far and above what we may think justified but most can be obtained on very favorable terms and there will always exist genuine unmolested examples to please the most demanding restorer intent upon maintaining the vehicles in a historically accurate and acceptable manner.<P>A great question which polarizes practically all enthusiasts on both sides of the fence but I like to think there is enough room for all of us, remember life is so damn short and there will always be plenty of original examples to pass on to the future generations but since my crystal ball is cracked it would be folly to predict what the attitudes and mores will be 30 or 40 years from now.

[1937hd45]

Dave,As I understand your post you just found out how to find "antique" cars in a street rod oriented magazine. The street rodders have been buying cars out of Hemmings, as well as Antique Automobile, and every AACA flea market for years. Wellcome to the free market! Once you place a For Sale sign on any vehicle it be comes a commodity, once the buyer pays you it is his to do with as he/she pleases. Most street rods have twice the dollar investment of their restored versions. If you want to stem the tide of rodded cars start buying every one you can before it is modified. It's a big world with plenty of room for all types of car ownership and enjoyment.

[Dave@Moon]

I don't expect my son's going to have too many original 1938 Huppmobiles to pick from, to say nothing of 1937 prototype woodys. <P>And in case you're interested, they made exactly 162 1953 Nash-Healeys. The number of coupes vs. roadsters isn't in my literature.<P>But then there's nothing like perspective to ruin a perfectly good hedonistic attitude towards some things. <p>[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[1937hd45]

Try this test, go to your favorite news store or bookshop, check out the automotive magazine section. Tell us how many glossy covered "antique vehicle" magazines are there. This should give you an idea where most of the interest is.

[Dave@Moon]

And my point was.....

[Guest]

First off most car "people" that I know of like restored as well as rodded and can appreciate both for what they are. No one I know of has purchased a $15 000-400 point car to cut apart to make a street rod out of, even die hard rodders would call that crazy. Most rods are built out of farm field junk with good bodies because everyone likes real metal instead of glass. The cost of restoring the farm field junk is easily twice what you could buy a good running "minty" example for, that's why they become rods.<P>Why are these cars listed in a rodding magazine? because people are looking to sell their investment to the highest bidder and don't care whether a rodder or a restorer buys it. I would imagine you could find those same cars advertised in just about every car magazine you could find.<P>The other side of the coin is that the baby boomer generation now wants what he/she drove or drooled over in high school but wants modern safety equipment and is typically not technically proficient enough to maintain an antique "original" properly. Rightly or wrongly, the idea of a turn key fuel injected 350 Chevy under the hood is appealing to just about everyone. Particularly when you consider if you want to be able to fix it in Timbuktou. For the average driver it is all about practicality, durability and availability of repair parts. Kit cars are popular for this reason.<P>If it wasn't for the rod crowd how many reproduction panels do you think you would find for a Model A?, the restoration business is a very small part of the automotive sport. Lets not forget that some here consider running radial tires on an antique wrong! Why? the safety aspects and handling traits far outweigh the originality in most peoples minds and I for one don't want 50 year old tire designs to trust my families lifes on, put three point safety belts in there too. This is the year 2002, things change usually for the better. I can't think of a better example of progress for the better than automotive engineering.<P>Fanatical restoration is fine but expensive, impractical and unrealistic in the minds of the vast majority. Museum quality restorations would not get driven by the average driver in case it gets a ding. The automotive hobby is large enough that there is room for everyone, don't admonish a rodder for dropping a 350 Chevy under the hood of his chopped, dropped and channeled Model A, be thankful he saved a rusty hulk from the scrap dealer and spent the time to create something from nothing.<p>[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: 4 Jaw Chuck ]

[Guest Stllrng.]

You know Chuck, I pretty much completely agree with you on all of these points. However, in my opinion, and not necesarily the opinion of anyone else, I think it's time you considered getting past this "restorers all HATE rodders" mindset that you have. I have been around the old car hobby for my whole life, mostly around antiques, and I have never seen this hate element that you constantly refer to. I don't know why but you use the words "hate" and "hatred" in an awful lot of your postings. As I said, I agree with what you are saying, but I think you go overboard with the "restorers hate the rodders" remember this is not 1965. I personally do not know any people that have a restored car that don't either own a rod, or didn't build a rod or muscle car at one time. Mind you, I am on the west coast, and we are pretty laid-back.

[Guest]

Sorry, no offense meant. I will edit. It was meant more as a colloquialism like "don't hate me because I'm beautiful". Not that I am.<p>[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: 4 Jaw Chuck ]

[Guest]

Better?

[1937hd45]

One BIG thing to remember is numbers when legislation comes up that hits all hobbists. SEMA and other groups that depend on the modified market look out for and help defeat anti hobby bills.

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

I have to agree with Chuck in that if I wanted to build a rod, I would be looking for a barnyard oldie for a few hundred bucks instead of a semi-restored unit for several thousand. Since these hulks are usually nothing more than a body and frame, restoration would probably be finacially foolish. Therefore, let the rodders have at them instead of letting them be crushed.<P>On the other hand, I came on the internet about the same time that I bought our '37 Chrysler. I went to a search engine and typed in"'37 Chrysler". One of the websites that popped up was some guy who had inherited his dad's '37 Chrysler Royal C-16 sedan... my car, except his was black and mine was brown. He said to keep track of his site as he would post progress on this project car. Since the car was presentable, I expected to check back and find progress like rechromed trim, new upholstery, etc. When I did check back, several months later, I found photos of the new flame paint job applied to the front of the car and statements proudly proclaiming how he got rid of that old flathead 6 and replaced it with a 340 V-8 with auto trans. I was sick!

[Guest Skyking]

Guys, there is an old saying...."To each his own"........

[Dave@Moon]

Boy has this site changed. <P>I remember when there were more people here interested in the mission and purpose of the AACA then there were those who were not. That's when <I>I</I> was a heretic for suggesting there was something wrong with using inferior bias ply tires instead of radials on a driver restoration.<P>And as far as I know not one thread of this forum has ever been sullied by someone posting a reccommendation <I>against</I> the installation of safety equipment.<P>I cannot believe that in nearly 24 hours, literally noone has caught on to the selection of cars I picked out of this magazine (the May issue, if anyone else is looking). All of them, except for 2 of the Dodges and the '31 Chevy, are <I>extremely</I> rare pieces of automotive history. Each has a production run (I believe) of less than 2000, some running into the single digits. Four of them were literally hand made. One of them (plus one other, a 1934 Lincoln I left off because it probably was given it's big block more than 10 years ago) are Full Classics. <P>I do not hate street rods or street rodders. I have to admit that they have the great advantage of being able to use almost any piece of crap as a starting point, and with some skill they (I should say "we" because I'm helping on the build of one right now) produce vehicles that immeasurably improve the car hobby.<P>I hate ignorance. <P>-----------------------<P>It's time to call a spade a spade here.<P>The antique car hobby is a self-aggrandizing, self-absorbed, semi-elitist hobby for little boys who never grew up. (I'm guilty, take some time and think about it yourself. Nobody's restoring their Plymouth to help Mother Theresa.) It has the important side benefit of restoring and preserving important pieces of our cultural history, producing tangible and financially valuable links to our past as a people which (by their nature) do not depreciate or ever again become obsolete.<P>The street rod hobby is a self-aggrandizing, self absorbed, semi-elitist hobby for little boys who never grew up.<P>(sound of crickets chirping)<p>[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

Thank you Dave Moon, <BR> I love this spiel about "preserving vehicles for future generations". Funny but I've rarely seen that altruism translated into affordable prices for this generation, it's all a one way street.

[Tom Deering]

Our old comic strip hero named Pogo had it all figured when he said: "We has met the enemy and they is us". We "Purists" can't agree on a reasonable standard for what constitutes an authentic car. Actual fact: Grand National first place winner is shown 10 weeks later in a marque concuours and has to be shown in "Modified Class" or else be crucified with authenticity deductions. We always use the cop-out: "produce documentation". What is meant by that is truly: "show us documentation we agree with from a source we recognize".<P> These are arguments I have heard and/or personally observed. No sour grapes though; it didn't affect me. My indifference is a big part of the problem. Just because I wasn't harmed by this; why should I do anything to correct it? <P> The simple fact remains that there are thousands of former purists out there who felt they were "wronged" by their hobby. Where did these old timers go? You will find them in Hot Rods, Street Rods, or at best, in the Modified Class where they built cars to suit themselves rather than attempt to satisfy the whims and caprices of some arbitrary officials. <P> Tom

[Guest]

Am I jaded? here's something I witnessed in my own time,on a couple of occasions.<BR>An elderly collector with the best of intentions leaves the cream of his collection to a museum to be displayed in perpetuity.<BR>Museum gets the cars, they are "deaccessioned" and sold off or otherwise dispersed.<P>The conclusion being nothing matters when you're dead so enjoy them now.

[1937hd45]

One thing the street rod hobby has is a defined age range 1948 and earlier. You won't see any 1949 or newer vehicle on the show field. The overabundance of new cars has kept many older members with prewar cars at home, or in the ranks of the street rodders.

[Guest]

Sadly,people will continue to do whatever they want with old cars, wether that means to modify them, or sell them to someone that will modify them. At the turn of the century, any city had many examples of the arcitecture of the day. Ornate houses and stone buildings were everywhere. By the late fifties and early sixties, most of these buildings were gone. Most of the remaining ones were heavily modified and Modernized. City halls had their ornate wood work removed, and stone court houses were stuccoed over to make them appear smooth, square, and modern. Better than they were before. Today, very few original buildings remain as they were.<BR>Unfortunately, I think old cars will have much the same fate.

[Guest Stllrng.]

By the way, I am registered.

[Guest]

Ha Ha, my wife would certainly agree with that.

[Guest leadfoot]

I guess that I'm one of the antique car "purists" who is distressed when rodders/customizers tear up our old cars.<P>But from years of experience in the Antique Studebaker and Dodge Brothers clubs, I've found that only about 20% of the cars listed on the registeries are restored, projects or runnable. So what will happen to the rest of these cars? A few will become future projects, some will be parted out, and most will transfer owners and probably just become rustier.<P>In the past, when I decided to sell my good restored cars I have tried to be careful about the motives of the buyer. I am not as fussy with run-of-the-mill hulks or parts cars.

[Dave@Moon]

L I: The whole point is that authentically restored cars are (almost) <I>always</I> worth more than street rods. Your point about the "altruism" is completely illogical. Do you really want <I>your</I> car to a financial zero when you pass on?<P>If so, I'd suggest street rodding a valuable, rare antique. What the he##, nobody seems to care here!

[Dave@Moon]

So far the only point on this thread that I agree with is Deering's. I have seen quite a number of people withdraw from the judging scene because it <I>is</I> artificially competative. It often will wind up becoming a urination contest with someone(s) who had the foresight/luck/privledge to hold the high ground beyond your reach. <P><B>But that does not give license to the complete abandonment of the principles behind restoring historic vehicles!</B><P>There <I>is</I> more to this hobby than grille badges , trophies and getting your picture in the club newsletter, you know! <P>Doesn't anybody restore a car just because they like it anymore?

[Guest]

Although I personally prefer restoration over rodding, the economics are not always in favor of the authentic restoration. Consider the resale value of the following:<P>51 Chevy Sedan - stock vs. radical custom<P>Now how about the '32 Imperial mentioned before?<P>I think the point here is that customs' value is primarily based on the modifications, not the starting point. The opposite is true for restorations. The person on a modest budget with a taste for restoration is the one squeezed here.

[Dave@Moon]

It is obvious to me that there is no longer the appreciation on this forum for unique, rare automotive historical artifacts that there once was.<P>Three years ago there was a series of about 8 threads, all of which had "Young Poeple" in the heading. All of them cenetered around attracting people of my generation (40's) and younger to the hobby in a capacity beyond picking your favorite shaped antique hulk, monochroming it, and stuffing it on top of the largest portion they could retain of the Nova they <I>really</I> wanted to drive in the first place.<P>(If you think street rodding more than that, you're just trying to better the Nova.)<P>On one of those threads, I mentioned seeing a '37 Terraplane coupe being chopped in the background of a scene on one of those TNN car shows. This was in a piece about one of those accreditted college "car restoration" programs. (I think it was Wyoming Tech, but I'm not sure.) The AACA members immediately began filling the thread with remarks of derision for someone thoughtless enough to permenantly destroy such a rare and honored piece of automotive history. <P>Today that car is probably the darling of some supermarket's Friday night cruise. In 2032 it'll be part of a Hyundai. <P>That Terraplane is vastly more common that most of the cars I started this thread with. I wasn't talking about rusted Studebaker hulks or easily obtained Buick sedans. This isn't remodeling an antiquated City Hall, this is applying pink aluminum siding to Monticello. (And yes, for some of thses cars that analogy is <I>directly</I> applicable!) That I even have to explain that here speaks <I>volumes</I> about the changing nature of this forum, and the relevancy of the question I used for this thread's heading.<P>They're at the gates of Moscow and Stalingrad now boys! What are you going to do about it?

[Dave@Moon]

5555:<P>The modified '51 Chevy <I>may</I> be worth more than stock (depending on how well it was done), <I> <B>when the car is just finished!</I> </B> Wait 5 years, then wait 10 years, then 30. Keep both cars in equivalent condition. Now what do you see?<P>How much is that dingle-balled, mural-bedecked, 6.6 T/A engined, ET mag wearing, sparkle vinyled interiored, chrome chain steering wheeled, shag carpeted wonder of a street rod from 1979 worth today? <P>It's a parts car. And not a very good one.<P>Next year, when street rodder jr. inherits it, most of it will be made into a Hyundai.<P>Pity. <P>-----------------<P>Oh, and uhh, by the way, the '32 Chrysler Imperial CH is a Full Classic, worth tens of thousands of dollars at least (and possibly much more depending on content, style and history). But then a little knowledge can go a long way to ruining a perfectly good hedonistic attitude.

[1937hd45]

Don't cry too hard over the engineless 1932 Chrysler Imperial. There are no known spare engines out there, the last BLOCK sold for $20,000 last year. I'd like to know when this "war" started. If you do just a wee bit of reading the modified cars predate restorations by several decades. The "Historical Hot Rod" has passed the $100,000.00 milestone a long time ago. It is still a free country, if you paid for it you can burn it up, rod it or restore it. Now let's get onto something constructive.<P>[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: 1937hd45 ]<p>[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: 1937hd45 ]

[Dave@Moon]

....If your name is Boyd or Barris. Doug the painting contractor from Ft. Wayne ain't <I>never</I> gonna see $100K for his '32 unless there's $90K in the trunk!<P>But then a little knowledge.....Oh screw it!

[Guest]

You know Stllrng, I think the word I changed earlier was the correct one after all. Lets move on before this ends up in the rants and raves section again.<P>Hey guess what, I saw an antique car on the road today. We have had unprecedented warm weather here for the last couple of days and all the nice cars are coming out again, anyone else seen any?<P>(crickets chirping)

[Dave@Moon]

And my secondary point in the first posting was.....<P> <P>(sound of depressed cricket sighing)

[Guest]

I side with Stllrng.<BR> <BR>The implication of this thread is we are in some sort of "war" with hot-rodders. That this is some sort of line drawn between rodders and restorers, and the line is never crossed by either camp. <P>Nothing could is further from the truth. I've not been to a swap meet in YEARS that didn't have both camps out in abundance. (and that INCLUDED Hershey) I?ve not witnessed any animosity between them - hell, I see a lot of camaraderie. <P>In addition I?ve seen many a rod being built by a "restorer". <P>So the big question is: Is it wrong to hot rod a perfectly restorable car? HECK NO! It?s a free county ? they can do what they please? ALL THE POWER TO THEM!<P>Is it a shame that a perfectly good car gets hot rodded? Maybe, but if restorer doesn?t step up to ?rescue? that car, then its not the fault of the hot rodder.<P>As to seeing antique restored cars on the road, I know my 47 Chrysler is on the road at least 2-3 days a week. And here in Tucson is very common to see 50s and 60s cars out in abundance ? driven by collections and just as good `ol daily drivers. The question is? are you driving your old car or do you hide behind excuses like ?to expensive to insure?, ?don?t want to ruin the restoration?, ?don?t want to clean it? or ?to many crazy drivers out there??. All excuses I?ve heard, and all pretty lame in my opinion. <P>Our loyalties to the AACA and it's interests should not prevent us from appreciating and respecting other clubs and their unique interests.<P>Just my two cents worth. <P>Peter<p>[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[1937hd45]

Thank you Peter. That is just the way I view it here in Connecticut.Most rodders drive their cars as soon as they are safe, old upholstery, and primered bodies. You can't say the same for a restoration. Remember we are talking about 1948 and earlier vehicles.

[Guest]

1937hd45,<P>Glad you concur. <P>However, I disagree with two of your points. <P>1. There are more "in progress" restorations at our local cruise night that finished cars. (that includes my 47) <P>2. We are not talking about pre-48 only. We are talking about antique cars... which could be just about anything. (notice Dave@moon mentioned a 69 Charger?)<P>Peter

[Guest]

Dave@moon,<P>I disagree with a lot of points you made above but a few stick out - <P>"It is obvious to me that there is no longer the appreciation on this forum for unique, rare automotive historical artifacts that there once was".<P>"I remember when there were more people here interested in the mission and purpose of the AACA"<P>These are HUGE GENERALIZATIONS! Personally I don't find these blanket statements accurate, or helpful. It's great to point out problems, but it has to be done contructively.<P>Peter<p>[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[1937hd45]

Peterg, When I compare rods to restored cars I ALWAYS draw the line at 1948. That way we are all compareing apples to apples. My personal interest in post 1949 vehicles is nonexistant, with the exception of race cars and sports cars.

[Guest]

1937Hd45,<P>You may draw the line there but rodders (and restorers) have long ago moved that line well into the 60s. Have you been to an AACA show lately? There are way more post-war cars than pre-war. Would you tell an 58 Impala owner that his car isn't a Rod? Hell, Rod and Custom magazine June 2002 "Dream Car of the Month" is a 59 Buick 4 door for Chriminy Sake!<P>Peter<P>P.S. Yes, I subscribe to R&C magazine, and I'm a loyal AACA member. Getting one and being a member of the other is NOT mutually exclusive.<p>[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: peterg ]

[Guest]

I'll add a few comments, since I'm sort of in the middle of this constant debate. I much prefer restored cars, but my parents (of all people) are into the 'rod scene', though honestly they can't really afford it, so they hang on the fringes with 60s muscle cars.<P>1) There are those of us (younger) that appreciate the truly rare and remarkable classics. Don't assume because we aren't on the board we don't exist!<P>2) Most of the 'rodders' are actually guys in their 50s and up, who can now afford to play in this arena.<P>3) The quality of the vast majority of rod projects I see is abysmal. Restorers by far excel in attention to detail and making the entire package right. 80% of the rodders out there are simply happy if they get the thing running down the road. A nice hot rod is something to behold. The average hot rod is a cobbled together piece of crap.<P>4) I wouldn't care so much if hot rodding was just adapting modern drivetrains into old bodies. That I can understand. What I don't get is this major alteration of the body into something it never was intended to be. If you want a '40 Ford, that's what you should have. If you want something that looks like a kit car, that's what you should buy. Maybe it's just me...? <P>Dwight V.<BR>Elizabethtown, PA

[The Old Guy]

I usually stay out of things like this,but i have to present my feelings on the subject. I started in hot rods back in the 50s and played with drag cars umtil my boys were old enough to drive. I then switched to antique cars so we could still enjoy the automobile hobby without one of them getting hurt in my Hot Rod ( it was quite fast,and hard to handle) I have since had restored cars that have been to some prestigious meets ,and still (now that the kids are grown) I like the street Rods . I have built a 37 Buick coupe that has all the toys and have a 57 Buick on a late chassis that I drive as an every day car . In my area ,there are many talented street Rodders that have become avid restorers and the work they do in a two car garage will astound you. There is room in the hobby for both ,and it is becoming easier to combine the groups. <P>Joe Taubitz<p>[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: The Old Guy ]

[Guest]

The best way to perserve cars is to make your antique auto club interesting and inviting to new and younger blood. I have seen far to many time a new prospective member show up and the club members ignore him. And God help him if he brings children! Look at the old magazines from the 1950's and see how active the AACA was. Look at the cars that turned out. Where are they now? When you run all the new people off, they go elsewhere. I have several origional and restored cars, but in May I am cutting up my 1954 Ford, putting a Torino front end and 351 with auto, 9" rear, cutting the top, nosing and decking, lowering because in El Paso, TX, the people that are having fun with their cars are the rodders. Understand, I am a life member of AACA. But here, in El Paso, the antique car people are 80 year ol jerks. The antique car clubs made the rod clubs successful. If you don't like what they are doing, you have only yourself to blame.