Sequence to a Frame Off Restoration

[Guest 53Mark]

I'm looking for advice on the proper sequence to perform a frame off restoration. I realize that may vary significantly depending on the needs of the vehicle but am hoping to get some general guidelines. Primarily, should the body work be done on the frame before the frame is restored or after? Or, does the body work even need to be performed on the frame (i.e. - could it be done on a body cart or rotisserie)? Also, I've debated whether to have the body media blasted so I can know for sure of any potential issues. Any tips or suggestions are much appreciated for a beginner like me.

Mark

[BUICK RACER]

What car are you going to be doing?

[Guest 53Mark]

What car are you going to be doing?

It is a 53 Roadmaster 76R.

[Bhigdog]

If you are cutting out major sections of the body, floor or structural members it's best to leave it on the frame and brace as needed. If you are talking normal rust repair, patch panels, etc it's a lot easier on the rotisserie. BTW, rocker panels are structural...........Bob

[1957buickjim]

53 Mark, you might want to look at it again. I did a frame on, and it turned out great check out this thread http://forums.aaca.org/f163/how-do-frame-restoration-294509.html. Depending on the car, you may not get what you want out of it for the expense of the total frame off experience. You really have to think about what you need to do and keep at the task, so you don't end up with a disassembled project for someone else to try to figure out.

My rule of thumb is that unless it is a highly sought after car (50's convertible; 53/54 Skylark; rare muscle car) you will never get out of it the cost of what you put into it in time and money. At least with a frame on, you can do it in chunks and still have something to drive around in and still have a great looking vehicle, without the hassle.

Just my thoughts on it. I thought long and hard with a lot of input from the people on the forum who have started and taken longer than they want and cost more than they ever anticipated (in parts and tools for sure!) that they realized it would.

If that hasn't changed your mind, and maybe this is one of those specialty vehicles, since you didn't say what the vehicle was, it is a great undertaking. I wish you well on your endeavor and feel free to keep posting on the forum. Most likely start a thread under the "Me and My Buick" Forum. Good Luck

Edited February 11, 2012 by 1957buickjim
clarification (see edit history)

[Caballero2]

re; 1957 Caballero, 1957 Roadmaster, 1957 Super

I have done two frame off restorations. And, I am beginning a frame on restoration. I have been following 57buickjim with interest, because his input is valuable. As for Frame off, resources and facilities are important. Tenacity and enthusiasm are key. On this forum, smartin is half way through a body off (1958 Buick Limited) in his driveway and garage. I do not think that he had the advantage of a body rotisserie as I did on my second project. My first was garage and driveway also. Both body off projects were onging and took five years for the first and twenty for the second. But, both were done as a hobby and time was dictated by the enjoyment taken from the project. I can sequence the project for you if I knew just what facilities you have available.

I have the front clip off my frame on project. The engine and transmission is out. The numbers matching engine is archived with its accessories. Another 364 ci engine is just about ready. I have just finished the adaptation of a modern master power brake cylinder for a future disk brake setup. Clean-up and paint as 57buicjim finished are next on my agenda.

Dan

[JZRIV]

There isn't a specific sequence that works for every car and owner due to many variables. The above post listing concerns regarding the desire to undertake a body-off is legitimate.

I'd suggest putting the body on either a fixed cart with suitable wheels for mobility, or a rotisserie. I used a fixed cart but modified it to get the body to the perfect height for repairs. For a car that size you'll probably need to custom fab a cart anyway.

You could start by gutting the interior, glass, and striping the paint with the body on the frame so you know for certain what areas need attention before the body comes off as well as allowing you to re-access the best route from that point on based on what you find. You may find some areas are easier to repair while still on the frame and some off so you would proceed accordingly.

In my opinion its easier to do body work with the body off the frame. Regardless of how you do it, you will want to do all metal repairs on the body before having it media blasted primarily because you'll want to epoxy prime it right after blasting.

I chose to restore the chassis and drivetrain first because thats what I'm most comfortable doing. This gave me more time to access out how I was going to attack the body as well as see where I stood with the budget before starting the body phase. In other words figure out how much of the body project I'd have to do myself to stay in budget.

I prefer to have the body completely painted before setting it on the chassis then very carefully install the doors, fenders, hood etc. Some prefer to assemble the body back on the chassis and align gaps before painting to avoid the risk of damage assembling after paint. Thats a personal choice and either way works. I don't like to do that because no amount of masking can prevent body shop dust from getting all over the newly restored engine and chassis, etc.

Edited February 12, 2012 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[Guest 53Mark]

Thanks to each of you for your input so far. It is very helpful and you each have brought up some good points for me to think about.

Jim - I appreciate your comments on whether to do a frame off. The thread you started is very useful. I've debated this question for a long time. I felt that the frame off was necessary to really identify and repair the issues once and for all. My time is not as much of a concern to me as is the cost. However, I've yet to truly understand why it will cost so much more to do the frame off. Other than a cart/rotisserie, what extra costs am I missing? I'm assuming that a frame on restoration would be restoring most, if not all, the same components as a frame off, at least that is the impression I got from the frame on thread.

I'm doing this project in my 2 car garage. It probably takes me 3X as long as it takes a "normal" person to do anything to the car just because most of it is new to me. But, I have enjoyed every minute of it and am continually learning something new. I've removed most of the trim, the interior seats and most of the front clip but that is about the extent of it. So, I'm just getting started.

[1957buickjim]

Mark, Trust me, I am not trying to deter you from doing a frame-off. If you look at Adam Martin's thread http://forums.aaca.org/f163/1958-limited-four-door-riviera-248848.html on what he is doing to his vehicle. If you have the time, which it looks like is not a factor, and the space (2 car garage)- you will need 1 space for the frame / chassis, and one space for the body (rotisserie / cart) you should be fine doing a frame off.

As for the added expense, I don't have a good handle on that, since I have only done a frame on. That information came from some pretty good sources on the forum such as Adam and Mike (Buick5563) who have had experience in doing it both ways. You are correct about removing and restoring all the components in my frame on restoration as being a wash for the comparison. I venture to guess that it more than likely involves more extensive sub-body work (floors, etc) that you have easier access to with the body off the frame, than what I did with the body on the frame.

Either way you go, you have a great car to do it with and as you can see with the number of people that have posted to your thread thus far, lots of experience in doing what you want to do with your 53 Roadie. Just remember to take advantage of that experience, it is priceless.

Also, join the BCA (Buick Club of America) if you haven't already. You can find all sorts of information and great articles in the Bugle (monthly magazine) and get to know a great group of people who live the Buick life..you can use me as your referral, if you wish. You can do it on-line at Buick Club of America - BCA - Welcome. Just select the Secure Mmebership link.

Glad you are asking these questions as you are just getting going. Keep asking away and post some photos of your Buick Beauty. Good Luck

[1953mack]

Read my lips.....

If I had to do it over again, and the 1953 76R was my only Buick, I would seriously take into consideration the following sequence:

#1. Get the Buick running and driveable and enjoy it as soon as possible. Join and be active in a Buick club and you will learn quickly from others. You will have second thoughts on how far of a restoration you want to tackle. Many times you will have thoughts of giving up on the project. Decide if you want to go any further on the rebuild or to sell the running and driveable Buick.

#2. Start the body work and primer the car with the body ON THE FRAME while it's still running and driveable. That includes patching floors and/or rocker panels. Complete all the accessible body work BEFORE the body is taken off the frame.

#3. Decide if you want to proceed with taking the body off the frame. This will be your BIGGEST decision. Factors to consider: (a) are you sure you want to spend the time (year(s)?) and money (mucho) involved; ( do you want to do a high-point restoration or just a quickie cleanup of the frame, suspension, and underside of the body by wire brushing everything and brush painting everything with a coat of POR 15; or, © how far do you want to disassemble and redo the chassis suspension, underside parts, nuts and bolts.

#4. If you decide not to go the body-off-the-frame route, paint the car, clean up the interior, replace bad parts with good used parts that are out there (chrome items?), enjoy the ride, and spend the money you saved on something else.

There are a lot of stories out there about projects that have stalled out due to a lot of reasons. Why own a project (unless you have another running and driveable collector car) that will take years to finish?

You have a desireable body style. I personally sold a 1953 76R a couple of years ago, black exterior with red interior, that the latest I heard is on the East Coast. What part of the country are you from?

One last item to mention.....even if you completed a 1953/1954 Skylark body-off-the-frame, high point restoration, YOU WILL NOT get the money back that you spent on it nowadays, doing it yourself or having somebody else do it. It's that plain and simple.

Just my $.02 worth.

It would be interesting to keep us posted on your decisions. Good luck!

Al Mack

"500 Miles West of Flint"

02.12.12

Edited February 12, 2012 by 1953mack (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

Thanks to each of you for your input so far. It is very helpful and you each have brought up some good points for me to think about.

However, I've yet to truly understand why it will cost so much more to do the frame off. Other than a cart/rotisserie, what extra costs am I missing? I'm assuming that a frame on restoration would be restoring most, if not all, the same components as a frame off, at least that is the impression I got from the frame on thread.

Some of the extra cost depends how much you can do yourself. You are correct, the cost factor between the two options isn't always a big difference but it can be if you rely more on others to do some of the work. Typically when a body-off is done it makes no sense to cut corners on any part of the project when going to that extent. There are countless decisions along the way that affect cost and typically those that do a body-off pay a higher cost in the end for perfection because thats typically the goal up front. If its not there is no point in doing it. The cost increases are hard to quantify in a simple sentence or two. As long as you expect the whole project to cost 30-40% more than expected and you have the capital to cover it cost is a non-issue.

Unless you can do the body and paint yourself, the body shop bill can be 1000s more for a body off for the simple fact that there is a lot more handling and labor when pieces are done individually and then must be reassembled vs a normal paint job with most panels fixed in place. Again I emphasize if you are doing 100% of the disassembly and reassembly of panels on a body-off, that helps minimize the cost difference.

While end cost difference is somewhat of a concern, the time the car is apart is what concerns me the most but I tend to worry about value more than others in part because I don't have disposable income. When its in 100s of pieces the value plummets lower than an ants belly. The longer its apart the more risk that higher priorities of life can get in the way of completion. I have a ton of money invested in my project but market value is barely a fraction of investment because its in pieces.

One example of time differences is when you strip a body during a body-off and prepare it for media blasting, every single part, wire, hose, bracket, nut and screw should be removed in an effort to revert to when the body panels were first welded together at the factory. That is not necessary with a body-on and significantly reduces the project time.

It sounds like you have the right thought process going into this by asking questions now so you'll be fine.

[Guest 53Mark]

...Either way you go, you have a great car to do it with and as you can see with the number of people that have posted to your thread thus far, lots of experience in doing what you want to do with your 53 Roadie. Just remember to take advantage of that experience, it is priceless.

Also, join the BCA (Buick Club of America) if you haven't already....

Jim - I wholeheartedly agree that there is a lot of experience on this forum. I don't know what I would do without it. Hopefully, instead of asking questions all the time, at some point I'll be able to answer a few based on my new experiences. I did join the BCA over a year ago and have certainly not regretted that decision. Your project is an inspiration to me. Congrats on doing such a great job. Regardless of how I perform my restoration I hope I can accomplish as much.

Read my lips.....

If I had to do it over again, and the 1953 76R was my only Buick, I would seriously take into consideration the following sequence:...

You have a desireable body style. I personally sold a 1953 76R a couple of years ago, black exterior with red interior, that the latest I heard is on the East Coast. What part of the country are you from?

One last item to mention.....even if you completed a 1953/1954 Skylark body-off-the-frame, high point restoration, YOU WILL NOT get the money back that you spent on it nowadays, doing it yourself or having somebody else do it. It's that plain and simple.

Just my $.02 worth.

It would be interesting to keep us posted on your decisions. Good luck!

Al Mack

"500 Miles West of Flint"

02.12.12

Thanks for the tips. I live about 20 miles north of Nashville, TN. The car is matador red with a white top, red/black interior and came from Illinois after sitting in various storage for about 30 years. It was built in Atlanta and from what I understand sold from a dealership in Decatur, Illinois. I'm trying to track down the details of ownership for it's first 30 years.

Some of the extra cost depends how much you can do yourself. You are correct, the cost factor between the two options isn't always a big difference but it can be if you rely more on others to do some of the work. Typically when a body-off is done it makes no sense to cut corners on any part of the project when going to that extent. There are countless decisions along the way that affect cost and typically those that do a body-off pay a higher cost in the end for perfection because thats typically the goal up front. If its not there is no point in doing it. The cost increases are hard to quantify in a simple sentence or two. As long as you expect the whole project to cost 30-40% more than expected and you have the capital to cover it cost is a non-issue.

Unless you can do the body and paint yourself, the body shop bill can be 1000s more for a body off for the simple fact that there is a lot more handling and labor when pieces are done individually and then must be reassembled vs a normal paint job with most panels fixed in place. Again I emphasize if you are doing 100% of the disassembly and reassembly of panels on a body-off, that helps minimize the cost difference.

While end cost difference is somewhat of a concern, the time the car is apart is what concerns me the most but I tend to worry about value more than others in part because I don't have disposable income. When its in 100s of pieces the value plummets lower than an ants belly. The longer its apart the more risk that higher priorities of life can get in the way of completion. I have a ton of money invested in my project but market value is barely a fraction of investment because its in pieces.

One example of time differences is when you strip a body during a body-off and prepare it for media blasting, every single part, wire, hose, bracket, nut and screw should be removed in an effort to revert to when the body panels were first welded together at the factory. That is not necessary with a body-on and significantly reduces the project time.

It sounds like you have the right thought process going into this by asking questions now so you'll be fine.

Your comments make sense. After all is said and done, what I want is to have a drivable car that I may have judged on occasion. The pursuit of perfection is not within my skills nor my budget. I plan to do everything I possibly can myself. I'm as interested in the process and learning new skills as I am about having a completed, restored vehicle. Considering this and the comments you and others have made, maybe a frame off is not the best decision for me. However, thankfully, there is a lot of work to do before that decision must be made.

Mark

[buick5563]

In addition to the complete and spectacular advice given thus far, I will add what I learned from Old-Tank earlier today.

Buy two or more of the same cars so you have full-sized templates. Restore one, drive the other.

He said I had learned well.

[lrlforfun]

OK Mike: Forget everything about what's said here and ditch Dan's comment of "Tenacity" to the front of the line. With it you are going to the moon. Without it you are watching re-runs on TV. Mitch

[1957buickjim]

Mitch, you hit the nail on the head! What I haven't been posting is the amount of time that I spent doing what I did with my frame on. I did most of it over a 9 week period starting in Mid-June ending the 3rd Friday in August, the night before the Detroit Woodward Dream Cruise. Most days, I would come home from work at 5 or so and work until 2:30 am on the car. Weekends were from 7:30ish til 2 am or so. It is good to have a goal, but if you don't have the drive, you won't have the ride

[Smartin]

Jim, did you actually sleep during the job? If I did that, I would be a zombie by Friday.

[1957buickjim]

No, I did not sleep at work, though a few days, I felt a little groggy! I was the prime example of the 5 Hour Energy Commercials, though.

The nice thing is that I had a driver for the Dream Cruise every year since I have the car. That was always my spring / summer motivation. This year, it is Nationals, so I have to step it up a little earlier. Hopefully the weather will cooperate with me again!