Dave@Moon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 1976 Lotus Europa (very similar to the Esprit): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 When I think of Lotus I think of this Elan 1500 chassis... which is an X but a bit disproportionate. Just another "variation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palosfv3 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So do all the racing applications fit in ? "X"s are used through out most racing chassis and are used extensively to provide additional torsional rigidity. Maserati Birdcage chassis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 1976 Lotus Europa (very similar to the Esprit):These I would definitely NOT call an X in any variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 So do all the racing applications fit in ? "X"s are used through out most racing chassis and are used extensively to provide additional torsional rigidity.[ATTACH]114983[/ATTACH]Maserati Birdcage chassisNice try, jumbled mess though on this one for sure. Racing applications will be mentioned but not in detail since they are not "factory built" cars. Older Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa Romeo etc... which could be purchased off a showroom floor that have factory built tubular or similar frames in X configurations will be.As for DeLorean... they were built 1981-1982 and the Checker was still being built in 1982 as well. Any later than this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest South_paw Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The Triumph Spitfire used a X type chassis until the end in 1980. Other Triumph cars may have used an X in later years, worth a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I will probably pass on the book and wait for the movie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Can we get back on track and see if we can come up with some, if not "the" last car to use a X frame type configuration?________________________________________________________________________ CERTAINLY! 1964 full size Chevy was the last to use a TRUE X frame.D._________________________________________________________________________ I concede the Buick:eek:---I never would have thought GM would have done that knowing the safety issues:confused:, and the DeLorean and the Lotus. The Toyota and the Triumph are not joined at the hip.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) There is one car I haven't verified yet and maybe someone can tell me for sure or have a picture of this? That is of the last built 2-seater Ford Thunderbirds from 2002-2005. I have seen a CAD picture of the underside body of one and it shows a X brace but wonder if it went into production that way? This was to be a retro car in many ways but the uses of an X like in the original 1955-1957 T-Birds is one I need to verify still. Thanks!There is also another variation from the 2000's that we will mention but I don't dare say here because they are ones that is stretching it a bit but still a variation just the same. Edited January 20, 2012 by X-Frame (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) _________________________________________________________________________I concede the Buick:eek:---I never would have thought GM would have done that knowing the safety issues:confused:, and the DeLorean and the Lotus. The Toyota and the Triumph are not joined at the hip.D.They don't have to be joined at the hip... that is why we call them "variations" and we will categorize the different styles. Believe me, I have even had a few rounds with my co-author on the project when it comes to what to and not to include depending on interpretation. I have a certain criteria and he has another but we have come to compromise and will list those we don't agree on as mentions in the book even if we call some "embyronic" or "evolutional".And it is these puzzles like the Riviera having the x frame through 1970 we need to approach and clarify. Just like "why" did Buick drop the x braced frame in 1959-1960 for a K style, then go back to a X style in 1961? Edited January 21, 2012 by X-Frame (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Nope, I love a good sincere debate but hate to argue. It gets no one anywhere.If I point you to some patent information which "designers" aka "engineers" state these as X-Frames or X-Type frames, would that help?The bottom line is that this is a book about ALL kinds of X frames. Saying that a 1955 Oldsmobile has a Ladder Frame is incorrect. Saying it is a Perimeter Frame with X-Brace would be closer to the truth. Omitting the fact, as some authors have in books, that a car's frame has a x brace has caused some confusion in itself since a Ladder Frame by itself has a different meaning.I can agree with your analysis of more than an ample amount of fogginess even among designers. I certainly would agree a ladder frame becomes something else with the inclusion of "X" or "K" bracing components. Frankly, wouldn't even try to give them a name beyond recognizing both strengthened what was a weaker frame. However, I personally hang on the the notion the only true "X" frame existed on some '57 to sixty something GM cars all other variants include some aspects of other frame design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweepspear Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Not sure why Buick stuck with the X-frame thru 1970 for the Riviera. They share the same E Body structure with the Toronado & Eldorado.As far as I know, the '70 Riviera such as the one I own is the last X-framed GM car.Maybe the last X-framed American built car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Not sure why Buick stuck with the X-frame thru 1970 for the Riviera. They share the same E Body structure with the Toronado & Eldorado.As far as I know, the '70 Riviera such as the one I own is the last X-framed GM car.Maybe the last X-framed American built car?Thanks Dale for posting that validation No, not the last American car to have a "X-TYPE" frame as I am trying to establish that now which was the intention of my original post. There were cars that had some later such as the Checker Marathon until 1982 - the taxi cars but the company made more dressed up models for retail sale. Your car was the last with this style GM frame though. The 1971-1973 Boattail Riviera's had the same peremiter ladder frame as the other full size Buicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 They don't have to be joined at the hip... that is why we call them "variations" and we will categorize the different styles. Believe me, I have even had a few rounds with my co-author on the project when it comes to what to and not to include depending on interpretation. I have a certain criteria and he has another but we have come to compromise and will list those we don't agree on as mentions in the book even if we call some "embyronic" or "evolutional".And it is these puzzles like the Riviera having the x frame through 1970 we need to approach and clarify. Just like "why" did Buick drop the x braced frame in 1959-1960 for a K style, then go back to a X style in 1961?________________________________________________________________________ For your sake I don't want to wander off the thread, but if you look at all GM's products say from 58-1965 there are so many variations in suspension and steering combinations that it would be beneficial to look at them for clues as to why different frame types they were hung on.Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Should mention that body requirements were also a reason. For example; the 58 Pontiac / Chevrolet body pans were lowered for the rear seat foot well, and in 61 when the perimeter frame came for Pontiac/Olds this enabled the front floor section to deepen unlike the Chevy of 61. Motor trend also noted this and said the seating comfort/position for the ft passenger/driver was much better than the old X frame and didn't know why Chevrolet didn't ( go to the perimeter frame)do the same.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 The Triumph Spitfire used a X type chassis until the end in 1980. Other Triumph cars may have used an X in later years, worth a look. I forgot about the Spitfire, You'd think being a Triumph guy....Anyway The Spitfire, and the almost identical GT6 frame, are the closest Triumph came to making an "X frame". Interestingly those cars were based on the Triumph Herald, who's frame (shown below) was cut down into an x-shape.The TR's started out on simple ladder frames, and progressed to this complex bell-shaped structure with the introduction of independent rear suspension in the TR4A. I believe that the Stag/2000 line is similarly designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest monobilt Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 As for DeLorean... they were built 1981-1982 and the Checker was still being built in 1982 as well. Any later than this?The Avanti used the same frame from 1963 through 1985, with a large X-member.monobilt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Wolk Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I had forgotten what my TR-6 chassis looked like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I had forgotten what my TR-6 chassis looked like.Is it just me, or is that RX7 sneering disdainfully? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Wolk Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Japanese cars looked down on British cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 The Avanti used the same frame from 1963 through 1985, with a large X-member.monobiltI knew of these but forgot about them. These post 1963 Newman-Altman and Blake versions of the Avanti are aftermarket cars not built by Studebaker which is why I had forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthbob Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I have to say notwithstanding the "True X" debate I am enjoying the images posted of the different frames out there. To me a book/discussion about frame design in general is in order with a predominant chapter on the X Frames and their variants....just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 You know, I said I wasn't going to open up another can of worms here but now I want to as a tease and get some opinions. First rule, these discussions are about ALL variants on the X designs incorporated into automobile chassis frames. Second rule, you need to be open minded and not narrow minded.All I am going to do is list two cars here and you can go from there and no, neither of these designs are easy to see since they are mostly incorporated into the structure of the cars but if you know where and how to look, you will find them. One even calls their an X type.Honda S2000Corvette C5 or C6Also, has anyone come up with a definite answer about the 2000-2005 Ford Thunderbird?Thanks!Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest monobilt Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I knew of these but forgot about them. These post 1963 Newman-Altman and Blake versions of the Avanti are aftermarket cars not built by Studebaker which is why I had forgotten.Not really sure what you mean by 'aftermarket'. These were not 'replicas', but a continuation of the same car engineered/built by Studebaker except with a readily available engine. The frame, suspension, brakes, rear axle, etc all were the same components as on the '63/'64 cars. As the years went on, required safety updates were made which changed some components, and other parts were subsituted due to availability issues. But up through 1985, the Avanti was still very much as originally designed from a frame, suspension, and body standpoint. And it still used the x-member frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Not really sure what you mean by 'aftermarket'. These were not 'replicas', but a continuation of the same car engineered/built by Studebaker except with a readily available engine. The frame, suspension, brakes, rear axle, etc all were the same components as on the '63/'64 cars. As the years went on, required safety updates were made which changed some components, and other parts were subsituted due to availability issues. But up through 1985, the Avanti was still very much as originally designed from a frame, suspension, and body standpoint. And it still used the x-member frame.Wikipedia is calling them aftermarket but think what it is saying is that "Studebaker" did not build these years but an independent company did. I have seen two schools of thought about the frames though... one saying these cars were built on leftovers (how many did they build ahead of time?) and the other is that new ones were stamped from the original molds per se as needed. That only adds to the puzzle since the 1987 models were built on a different chassis so, did they conveniently use all of the old frames up prior to the new 3rd owner takeover or what happened to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Here's an X-frame for you. Got about the worst case of tree-hugger disease I ever did see. Check out that steering wheel. From Daliant on HAMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Another rare example of an X that I am sure would be disputed sat under the Totota Crown models of the early 1960s. It was massive and looks more like a H but it does bow towards the middle and Toyota calls it a X Frame.EricMention of the Toyota Crown prompts me to mention that the Crown must have been one of the very last passenger cars to retain separate frame construction. As far as I know the sedans went to uni body with the 150 Series in 1995 but there was no wagon version of that. Instead Toyota continued production of the 130 Series wagon which began in 1987 and continued until 1999.I have owned a 1987 120 Series Crown wagon for more than 20 years and it is built like the proverbial brick outhouse - on a perimeter frame with wishbone front suspension and leaf springs at the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Mention of the Toyota Crown prompts me to mention that the Crown must have been one of the very last passenger cars to retain separate frame construction. As far as I know the sedans went to uni body with the 150 Series in 1995 but there was no wagon version of that. Instead Toyota continued production of the 130 Series wagon which began in 1987 and continued until 1999.The Lincoln Town Car remained body-on-frame throughout it's life, which ended in 2011. There was also small run of body-on-frame Ford Crown Victorias made in August and Sept. 2011 that were designated 2012 models, to be sold exclusively overseas. Also the current 2012 (C6) Corvette remains a body-on-frame car, although there are rumors of a unibody for the C7 due out soon.Also, with electric vehicles coming into fashion the separate chassis may come back with them. The 2013 BMW Megacity electric car will use body-on-frame construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Will you incorporate any history of A.O.Smith company and their role in producing frames? They now make those blue porcelain silos and manure pits you see in farm country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Will you incorporate any history of A.O.Smith company and their role in producing frames? They now make those blue porcelain silos and manure pits you see in farm country.Definitely since they were one of the biggest designer and suppliers of frames to auto and truck manufacturers. Budd was another. In fact Smith were the ones who made the GM tubular center section X frames of 1957 on... Most people don't realize that car manufacturers for the most pat did not "make" the frames and sometimes bodies (Fisher Body) etc...Once unibody cars were being made replacing frames, their sales slumped and went to making truck frames. Then recessions hurt them so now they make automotive structural components, electric motors, residential and commercial water heaters, fiberglass piping systems, livestock feed storage systems, and storage tanks.They had been making car frames since the turn of the 20th century and is under nearly every Ford ever made - car or truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Here's an X-frame for you. Got about the worst case of tree-hugger disease I ever did see. Check out that steering wheel. From Daliant on HAMBGreat picture, thanks for sharing! It is a wonder someone hadn't torched the frame to get it removed by now. I recognize the frame and will see and post my finds on it here. Might be a Hudson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Would be interesting to count the rings on that tree and see how long that frame has sat there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bkazmer Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 those late EN114 Crown Vics did not alll go overseas - many were the police car variant sold in North America some municipalities , having set up their equipment to fit the long running Fords, moved up orders when the end was near Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) X-Frame, you may like this... In mid-May, 1955, "The Great One" visited the B-O-P Plant in Linden, NJ, for a tour and to pick up his new '55 Roadmaster Convertible. It was part of the publicity for his new multi-million dollar deal with CBS surrounding his new show, "The Honeymooners," as Buick had previously sponsored Uncle Miltie's, "The Buick Berle Show" on NBC.Larger, Plant Manager Marshall Boden points to Linden's production of Buicks for Friday, the 13th of May.All smiles with Mr. Boden, Jackie's loaded ragtop included wires and a Trailmaster spotlight.These pics came from the estate of Marshall Boden, given to me by a kindly ebay vendor (they do exist) for a favor rendered.TG Edited January 23, 2012 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Great picture, thanks for sharing! It is a wonder someone hadn't torched the frame to get it removed by now. I recognize the frame and will see and post my finds on it here. Might be a Hudson.As suspected it is a Hudson frame... runs between 1937-1939. The 1937 had a different gas tank bracing but can't see the rear in this photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 As suspected it is a Hudson frame... runs between 1937-1939. The 1937 had a different gas tank bracing but can't see the rear in this photo.It also answers the oft-asked question of when Hudson first introduced itsswing-away steering wheel.TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 X-Frame, you may like this... In mid-May, 1955, "The Great One" visited the B-O-P Plant in Linden, NJ, for a tour and to pick up his new '55 Roadmaster Convertible. It was part of the publicity for his new multi-million dollar deal with CBS surrounding his new show, "The Honeymooners," as Buick had previously sponsored Uncle Miltie's, "The Buick Berle Show" on NBC.These pics came from the estate of Marshall Boden, given to me by a kindly ebay vendor (they do exist) for a favor rendered.TGThey are really great pictures TG. Only problem is if I was to use one in the book I would need permission and of course credit given to the source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 As suspected it is a Hudson frame... runs between 1937-1939. The 1937 had a different gas tank bracing but can't see the rear in this photo.Column shift. It's no earlier than 1939 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Column shift. It's no earlier than 1939The style of frame in the picture was only made between 1937-1939. The 1940 had a different front design and the 1936 a different X brace design among other things.Granted, I am not a transmission guy as my focus is on frames but did look at a 1939 Hudson Owner's Manual and it shows a manual shifter on the column. They also have had automatic transmissions since 1934 but the shifter doesn't look like the manual. So, if 1939 was the first year for "on the tree" shifters for Hudson and the frame in this configuration used between 1937-1939 then it must be a 1939 frame in the picture Edited January 23, 2012 by X-Frame (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mellor NJ Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I knew you would like this pic for your files, X. This gives new meaning to "Three on the Tree". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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