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X-Frame

X-Frame History - help

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Nope, I love a good sincere debate but hate to argue. It gets no one anywhere.

If I point you to some patent information which "designers" aka "engineers" state these as X-Frames or X-Type frames, would that help?

The bottom line is that this is a book about ALL kinds of X frames. Saying that a 1955 Oldsmobile has a Ladder Frame is incorrect. Saying it is a Perimeter Frame with X-Brace would be closer to the truth. Omitting the fact, as some authors have in books, that a car's frame has a x brace has caused some confusion in itself since a Ladder Frame by itself has a different meaning.

I can agree with your analysis of more than an ample amount of fogginess even among designers. I certainly would agree a ladder frame becomes something else with the inclusion of "X" or "K" bracing components. Frankly, wouldn't even try to give them a name beyond recognizing both strengthened what was a weaker frame. However, I personally hang on the the notion the only true "X" frame existed on some '57 to sixty something GM cars all other variants include some aspects of other frame design.

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Not sure why Buick stuck with the X-frame thru 1970 for the Riviera. They share the same E Body structure with the Toronado & Eldorado.

As far as I know, the '70 Riviera such as the one I own is the last X-framed GM car.

Maybe the last X-framed American built car?

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Not sure why Buick stuck with the X-frame thru 1970 for the Riviera. They share the same E Body structure with the Toronado & Eldorado.

As far as I know, the '70 Riviera such as the one I own is the last X-framed GM car.

Maybe the last X-framed American built car?

Thanks Dale for posting that validation :)

No, not the last American car to have a "X-TYPE" frame as I am trying to establish that now which was the intention of my original post.

There were cars that had some later such as the Checker Marathon until 1982 - the taxi cars but the company made more dressed up models for retail sale.

Your car was the last with this style GM frame though. The 1971-1973 Boattail Riviera's had the same peremiter ladder frame as the other full size Buicks.

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They don't have to be joined at the hip... that is why we call them "variations" and we will categorize the different styles.

Believe me, I have even had a few rounds with my co-author on the project when it comes to what to and not to include depending on interpretation. I have a certain criteria and he has another but we have come to compromise and will list those we don't agree on as mentions in the book even if we call some "embyronic" or "evolutional".

And it is these puzzles like the Riviera having the x frame through 1970 we need to approach and clarify. Just like "why" did Buick drop the x braced frame in 1959-1960 for a K style, then go back to a X style in 1961?

________________________________________________________________________ For your sake I don't want to wander off the thread, but if you look at all GM's products say from 58-1965 there are so many variations in suspension and steering combinations that it would be beneficial to look at them for clues as to why different frame types they were hung on.

Don

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Should mention that body requirements were also a reason. For example; the 58 Pontiac / Chevrolet body pans were lowered for the rear seat foot well, and in 61 when the perimeter frame came for Pontiac/Olds this enabled the front floor section to deepen unlike the Chevy of 61. Motor trend also noted this and said the seating comfort/position for the ft passenger/driver was much better than the old X frame and didn't know why Chevrolet didn't ( go to the perimeter frame)do the same.

D.

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The Triumph Spitfire used a X type chassis until the end in 1980. Other Triumph cars may have used an X in later years, worth a look.

I forgot about the Spitfire, You'd think being a Triumph guy....:o

Anyway The Spitfire, and the almost identical GT6 frame, are the closest Triumph came to making an "X frame". Interestingly those cars were based on the Triumph Herald, who's frame (shown below) was cut down into an x-shape.

HeraldGB41039LDL.jpg

The TR's started out on simple ladder frames, and progressed to this complex bell-shaped structure with the introduction of independent rear suspension in the TR4A. I believe that the Stag/2000 line is similarly designed.

q.jpg

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As for DeLorean... they were built 1981-1982 and the Checker was still being built in 1982 as well. Any later than this?

The Avanti used the same frame from 1963 through 1985, with a large X-member.

monobilt

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I had forgotten what my TR-6 chassis looked like.

Scan5.jpg

Is it just me, or is that RX7 sneering disdainfully?:D

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The Avanti used the same frame from 1963 through 1985, with a large X-member.

monobilt

I knew of these but forgot about them. These post 1963 Newman-Altman and Blake versions of the Avanti are aftermarket cars not built by Studebaker which is why I had forgotten.

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I have to say notwithstanding the "True X" debate I am enjoying the images posted of the different frames out there. To me a book/discussion about frame design in general is in order with a predominant chapter on the X Frames and their variants.

...just my $.02

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You know, I said I wasn't going to open up another can of worms here but now I want to as a tease and get some opinions.

First rule, these discussions are about ALL variants on the X designs incorporated into automobile chassis frames. Second rule, you need to be open minded and not narrow minded.

All I am going to do is list two cars here and you can go from there and no, neither of these designs are easy to see since they are mostly incorporated into the structure of the cars but if you know where and how to look, you will find them. One even calls their an X type.

Honda S2000

Corvette C5 or C6

Also, has anyone come up with a definite answer about the 2000-2005 Ford Thunderbird?

Thanks!

Eric

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I knew of these but forgot about them. These post 1963 Newman-Altman and Blake versions of the Avanti are aftermarket cars not built by Studebaker which is why I had forgotten.

Not really sure what you mean by 'aftermarket'. These were not 'replicas', but a continuation of the same car engineered/built by Studebaker except with a readily available engine. The frame, suspension, brakes, rear axle, etc all were the same components as on the '63/'64 cars. As the years went on, required safety updates were made which changed some components, and other parts were subsituted due to availability issues. But up through 1985, the Avanti was still very much as originally designed from a frame, suspension, and body standpoint. And it still used the x-member frame.

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Not really sure what you mean by 'aftermarket'. These were not 'replicas', but a continuation of the same car engineered/built by Studebaker except with a readily available engine. The frame, suspension, brakes, rear axle, etc all were the same components as on the '63/'64 cars. As the years went on, required safety updates were made which changed some components, and other parts were subsituted due to availability issues. But up through 1985, the Avanti was still very much as originally designed from a frame, suspension, and body standpoint. And it still used the x-member frame.

Wikipedia is calling them aftermarket but think what it is saying is that "Studebaker" did not build these years but an independent company did. I have seen two schools of thought about the frames though... one saying these cars were built on leftovers (how many did they build ahead of time?) and the other is that new ones were stamped from the original molds per se as needed. That only adds to the puzzle since the 1987 models were built on a different chassis so, did they conveniently use all of the old frames up prior to the new 3rd owner takeover or what happened to them?

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Here's an X-frame for you. Got about the worst case of tree-hugger disease I ever did see. Check out that steering wheel. From Daliant on HAMB

TerraPlaneCloseUpsm.jpg

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Another rare example of an X that I am sure would be disputed sat under the Totota Crown models of the early 1960s. It was massive and looks more like a H but it does bow towards the middle and Toyota calls it a X Frame.

Eric

Mention of the Toyota Crown prompts me to mention that the Crown must have been one of the very last passenger cars to retain separate frame construction. As far as I know the sedans went to uni body with the 150 Series in 1995 but there was no wagon version of that. Instead Toyota continued production of the 130 Series wagon which began in 1987 and continued until 1999.

I have owned a 1987 120 Series Crown wagon for more than 20 years and it is built like the proverbial brick outhouse - on a perimeter frame with wishbone front suspension and leaf springs at the rear.

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Mention of the Toyota Crown prompts me to mention that the Crown must have been one of the very last passenger cars to retain separate frame construction. As far as I know the sedans went to uni body with the 150 Series in 1995 but there was no wagon version of that. Instead Toyota continued production of the 130 Series wagon which began in 1987 and continued until 1999.

The Lincoln Town Car remained body-on-frame throughout it's life, which ended in 2011. There was also small run of body-on-frame Ford Crown Victorias made in August and Sept. 2011 that were designated 2012 models, to be sold exclusively overseas. Also the current 2012 (C6) Corvette remains a body-on-frame car, although there are rumors of a unibody for the C7 due out soon.

Also, with electric vehicles coming into fashion the separate chassis may come back with them. The 2013 BMW Megacity electric car will use body-on-frame construction.

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Will you incorporate any history of A.O.Smith company and their role in producing frames? They now make those blue porcelain silos and manure pits you see in farm country.

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Will you incorporate any history of A.O.Smith company and their role in producing frames? They now make those blue porcelain silos and manure pits you see in farm country.

Definitely since they were one of the biggest designer and suppliers of frames to auto and truck manufacturers. Budd was another. In fact Smith were the ones who made the GM tubular center section X frames of 1957 on... Most people don't realize that car manufacturers for the most pat did not "make" the frames and sometimes bodies (Fisher Body) etc...

Once unibody cars were being made replacing frames, their sales slumped and went to making truck frames. Then recessions hurt them so now they make automotive structural components, electric motors, residential and commercial water heaters, fiberglass piping systems, livestock feed storage systems, and storage tanks.

They had been making car frames since the turn of the 20th century and is under nearly every Ford ever made - car or truck.

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Here's an X-frame for you. Got about the worst case of tree-hugger disease I ever did see. Check out that steering wheel. From Daliant on HAMB

TerraPlaneCloseUpsm.jpg

Great picture, thanks for sharing! It is a wonder someone hadn't torched the frame to get it removed by now. I recognize the frame and will see and post my finds on it here. Might be a Hudson.

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Would be interesting to count the rings on that tree and see how long that frame has sat there.

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those late EN114 Crown Vics did not alll go overseas - many were the police car variant sold in North America some municipalities , having set up their equipment to fit the long running Fords, moved up orders when the end was near

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X-Frame, you may like this...

In mid-May, 1955, "The Great One" visited the B-O-P Plant in Linden, NJ,

for a tour and to pick up his new '55 Roadmaster Convertible. It was part

of the publicity for his new multi-million dollar deal with CBS surrounding

his new show, "The Honeymooners," as Buick had previously sponsored

Uncle Miltie's, "The Buick Berle Show" on NBC.

jg_prodsched_300x.jpg

Larger, Plant Manager Marshall Boden points to Linden's production of Buicks for

Friday, the 13th of May.

jg_car_trailmasterx.jpg

All smiles with Mr. Boden, Jackie's loaded ragtop included

wires and a Trailmaster spotlight.

These pics came from the estate of Marshall Boden,

given to me by a kindly ebay vendor (they do exist)

for a favor rendered.

TG

Edited by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

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Great picture, thanks for sharing! It is a wonder someone hadn't torched the frame to get it removed by now. I recognize the frame and will see and post my finds on it here. Might be a Hudson.

As suspected it is a Hudson frame... runs between 1937-1939. The 1937 had a different gas tank bracing but can't see the rear in this photo.

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