1956 Buick Brakes Question

[Beemon]

My grandfather recently gifted me his 1956 Buick Century 2-door Hardtop, which hasn't run since 1979, to restore. He bought it in 1956 in Detroit and my grandmother drove it off the assembly line when it was finished.

Now that I'm getting into the whole restoration bit, I thought I'd start with the brakes. It may not run, but it can still move and I want it to stop. It has stock drums with the Delco Moraine power brake system.

I want to get the best bang for my buck and have considered a full disc conversion and replacing the power booster MC system. The disc system isn't so much a problem as I've seen Scarebird's products, it's moreso the MC/booster system. I've been doing a lot of research and can't seem to find a good conversion for a new booster with a dual reservoir MC. This is most important because it determines what I'll do with the car.

I want the dual reservoir MC because I've heard the single reservoir MC is a bad thing to stick with in case the brake line fails. I also want to do this with as little modification the the firewall and placement of booster as possible.

If I can't find a dual reservoir MC, though, will a single reservoir MC be reliable? Other than the brake lines failing, are there other accident prone issues I should know about? Will the Delco Moraine power brake booster work with a disc conversion?

I just pulled the brake booster today to inspect it and it had a rebuild sticker on it from the early 60s where my grandfather apparently rebuilt the brake system. However, the wheel cylinders had pits in them. Should I expect this with the brake booster/MC unit? Before I pulled the unit, I pushed down on the brake pedal and it pumped fluid through the lines (yes, fluid from before 1979 I was unaware of), and the pedal came back up easily.

Thanks in advance, guys! I come here a lot to skim and I finally got around to making an account because I have questions to ask.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Beemon, nice gift!!

But in my openion, unless you are going to be raceing the Century, save your self some time ,money and headaches and stay with the original brake system. At least you have power brakes. I stayed with original on my '50, and have driven several thousand miles with no problems. And parts for the '56 are available. Probably from the local parts store. Try honing the cyls. Can't hurt and you might get lucky. Kits are available.

Good luck

Ben

[Beemon]

But in my openion, unless you are going to be raceing the Century, save your self some time ,money and headaches and stay with the original brake system. At least you have power brakes. I stayed with original on my '50, and have driven several thousand miles with no problems. And parts for the '56 are available. Probably from the local parts store. Try honing the cyls. Can't hurt and you might get lucky. Kits are available.

Good luck

Hehe, that's the problem. Drums are shot and the pits in the wheel cylinders are pitted past honing. Plus, ball bearings cost an arm and a leg compared to better efficient roller bearings. Parts for disc brakes are far cheaper too.

I guess what's keeping me from wanting to go drums is the bearings, though. Could I put roller bearings in the drum or does it have to be ball?

[Roadmaster75]

I second that motion, Beemon.

Rebuild the stock system. Once done correctly, it will be very reliable

and you will not adversely affect the value of your new gift!

Congrats on being gifted a very nice Buick!

Since you have power brakes, engine vacuum will be an important in

a total rebuild of the existing system.

If you are in need of some braking power before trying to awaken the car

from its long sleep go ahead and replace or rebuild ALL the wheel cylinders,

brake hardware, and lines. Either secure a rebuild kit for the MC and booster

or send it out to a shop that specializes in this. Then you'll at least have some stopping power while you are rolling the car around the garage.

Then it's on to the wake up of the engine and get vacuum to the new booster!

mike

[Guest brh]

Congrats on the new gift, I got one too. My 65 was given to me by my grandparents in 1974. Even as a teen I felt it was important to preserve this car. As it sits today, all systems have been rebuilt, or freshen up. Has original paint, some more war wounds but still a good looking car. Until you figure out what you really want to with the car in the long term, I feel you may look back one day and not be happy with major alterations, just my opinion on that. My Buick has the original single cyl master, my lines have failed 2 times, once due to age, right in the drive way. Second time an exhaust pipe broke and rubbed clear through a new steel line. Guess what, after 30 years the emergency brakes still worked!!! Funny now, but wasn't then. I am not sorry I have kept the car with its original systems, the brakes still stop that car on a dime at 60 MPH, plus they are manual, not power. Its your car, do whats comfortable for you, above all enjoy it. My vote would be to redo the brakes as stock and not mess with it. I did look into the disc system for my car as well, but felt it was too much of an alteration.

[Guest NikeAjax]

Well sir, I went with disc on my '56, and I gotta say it rocks! OEM booster and master cylinder nothing to worry 'bout, they work very well, I just HATED the way the drums stopped the car as I was going down steep hills. To quote the kid from A Christmas Story, "Ohhhh fudge!" You know the queen-mother of all words... I'm surprised I didn't leave hand prints in the steering wheel, and using two feet on the brake is disconcerting to say he least. But hey, that's just my experience, "Actual results may vary, some assembly required, batteries not included..." (Yeah I know, I'm weird!)

Jaybird

[Guest NikeAjax]

I did replace ALL the lines on my car too. This summer I will tow this:

with this:

Jaybird

[JohnD1956]

Welcome Beemon, and what a great grandfather you have. That's an interesting gift he gave you and I can see you want to do the right thing concerning it. You have asked some good questions, and I'd like to share my humble opinions:

...I want to get the best bang for my buck and have considered a full disc conversion and replacing the power booster MC system. "

Only you can determine the best bang for the buck, but consider this: once the wheels are locked up, you are at the mercy of the road conditions, regardless if you have drums or discs. The 56 power brake system can lock em up easily.

...I want the dual reservoir MC because I've heard the single reservoir MC is a bad thing to stick with in case the brake line fails. I also want to do this with as little modification the the firewall and placement of booster as possible.

Unless I am missing something, you will never find any other master cylinder that will fit this application in the original spot. The major consideration is the downward tilt of the unit, which would pretty much cause any other M/C to suck air on a hard brake application.

...

Other than the brake lines failing, are there other accident prone issues I should know about? Will the Delco Moraine power brake booster work with a disc conversion?

Sounds like Jaybird kept the original M/C, although I don't know that for certain. Other conditions to be concerned with are the general driving characteristics of the car. The suspension is soft, and not easily tightened. If you blast into corners counting on the disc brakes to save your life, you may be dissapointed. If you put new shoes on it, you need to look up some of Willies ( Old Tanks) posts. The new shoe materials are not the best alternative but other lining alternatives do exist and are not prohibitively expensive Otherwise replacing the lines and flex lines plus the wheel cylinders will give you the reliability you seek.

...I just pulled the brake booster today to inspect it and it had a rebuild sticker on it from the early 60s where my grandfather apparently rebuilt the brake system. However, the wheel cylinders had pits in them. Should I expect this with the brake booster/MC unit? Before I pulled the unit, I pushed down on the brake pedal and it pumped fluid through the lines

Without a doubt, the M/C is expensive to rebuild. There are vendors who do this, but it's expensive when you have a one year, one car application like this. The rest of the parts are still available and relatively cheap. I've been able to find just about everything from my NAPA store. I am not surprised to hear the M/C pumped fluid, but if you've been following the thread on the 50 Brakes in the "General" forum" you know that the M/C has to be able to hold under pressure. Since you are just starting this, I would recommend filling the reservoir and pumping it all out, then replacing the lines and wheel cylinders and bleed the system. Save the M/C rebuild till you are ready to drive it. No point having a the rebuild sit around in case this takes longer than you expect.

[Guest NikeAjax]

I have heard from multiple sources that the biggest problem with the mid-1950's brakes is that the linings are too small: once they heat up no matter how hard you press the brakes peddle they don't grab any longer.

Yes I kept the original master cylinder.

I don't drive my car too crazy, I just want to stop when I plan on it. The small shoe can be quite hazardous in the wrong conditions, as was an experience of many of the California Highway Patrol officers in the mid-1950's.

Jaybird

[Beemon]

Thanks for the great advice everyone, especially JohnD! I'd like to ask a few follow-ups, if you don't mind.

Only you can determine the best bang for the buck, but consider this: once the wheels are locked up, you are at the mercy of the road conditions, regardless if you have drums or discs. The 56 power brake system can lock em up easily.

So what you're saying is that whether it's drum or disk, with power brakes it won't make a difference? I just want the car to stop, and if the stock power brake system works wonders, then I don't think I'd want to do the conversion. My grandpa said it never failed him before. He also rebuilt the system in the early 60s, but the wheel cylinders had deep pits I couldn't get rid of.

Unless I am missing something, you will never find any other master cylinder that will fit this application in the original spot. The major consideration is the downward tilt of the unit, which would pretty much cause any other M/C to suck air on a hard brake application.

That's a shame. I'm just worried about the single piston MC failing, but if I have a nice new brake system, those chances will be severely minimized, right?

Sounds like Jaybird kept the original M/C, although I don't know that for certain. Other conditions to be concerned with are the general driving characteristics of the car. The suspension is soft, and not easily tightened. If you blast into corners counting on the disc brakes to save your life, you may be dissapointed. If you put new shoes on it, you need to look up some of Willies ( Old Tanks) posts. The new shoe materials are not the best alternative but other lining alternatives do exist and are not prohibitively expensive Otherwise replacing the lines and flex lines plus the wheel cylinders will give you the reliability you seek.

I'm a bit curious here as to why lining of the shoes won't work the same. I will look into the posts you mentioned, but I'd like personal feedback. Also, do you have a stance on drilled drums?

Without a doubt, the M/C is expensive to rebuild. There are vendors who do this, but it's expensive when you have a one year, one car application like this. The rest of the parts are still available and relatively cheap. I've been able to find just about everything from my NAPA store. I am not surprised to hear the M/C pumped fluid, but if you've been following the thread on the 50 Brakes in the "General" forum" you know that the M/C has to be able to hold under pressure. Since you are just starting this, I would recommend filling the reservoir and pumping it all out, then replacing the lines and wheel cylinders and bleed the system. Save the M/C rebuild till you are ready to drive it. No point having a the rebuild sit around in case this takes longer than you expect.

I've already tore apart the brake booster and MC to take a look. It looks pretty good, just the seals and o-rings are a bit worn. Should I just put it back together as is and put it back in the car or rebuild it now while it's apart? I know this bit contradicts what you told me, but I had already dismantled it before you replied.

Thanks in advance, this is much appreciated.

[buick5563]

Raybestos shoes are made of a harder material that last longer, but use more leg to stop.

Don't waste your time with rebuilding wheel cylinders, they should be available from RockAuto Auto Parts .

[JohnD1956]

Thanks for the great advice everyone... I'd like to ask a few follow-ups, if you don't mind.

Most everyone here is glad to offer their opinions, and feel free to ask awayThere are many among us who have much greater experience than I but I thank you for your compliment.

So what you're saying is that whether it's drum or disk, with power brakes it won't make a difference? I just want the car to stop, and if the stock power brake system works wonders, then I don't think I'd want to do the conversion. My grandpa said it never failed him before. He also rebuilt the system in the early 60s, but the wheel cylinders had deep pits I couldn't get rid of.

See what Mike wrote. Willie said you can get your old shoes relined at a clutch rebuilder. I put new shoes on my 56 back in 88 and haven't worn them anywhere near the replacement point. At that point I just bought the parts from my local parts store and I have not had a problem stopping my car. But Jaybird does have a point about overheating the drum brakes and experiencing fade out. The possibility exists for fade if you drive through standing water too, which would not happen with Disc brakes. This may go back to how you'll use the car. I've driven mine to Flint from NYC area twice for national meets and one of those times was in virtually paint stripping rain, I did not have either problem. My 69 GS has non power manual brakes and they can also lock em up as needed. I've driven that car 20K since 2003 and have not experienced braking problems. .I guess my point is , unless you can install an anti-lock disc brake system, I find the cost for disc brakes unnecessary.

I'm just worried about the single piston MC failing, but if I have a nice new brake system, those chances will be severely minimized, right?

I also had mine rebuilt in 1988 for around $300.00 from someone in California. Can't recall who. It has served me well. Every years I siphon out the last years fluid from the reservior, and put in fresh fluid. I should then bleed the lines to flush em but I haven't done that in several years. Maybe this summer I'll do that.

I'm a bit curious here as to why lining of the shoes won't work the same. I will look into the posts you mentioned, but I'd like personal feedback. Also, do you have a stance on drilled drums?

I don't know what you mean by "drilled drums". If you're thinking of drilling holes in em to let em breathe and cool down quicker, I'd not be in favor of that.

I've already tore apart the brake booster and MC to take a look. It looks pretty good, just the seals and o-rings are a bit worn. Should I just put it back together as is and put it back in the car or rebuild it now while it's apart?

If you plan to get it running and drivable within a year or so, you may as well have it rebuilt now. It will save time later.

Thanks in advance, this is much appreciated.

Good Luck.

Edited June 16, 2011 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)

[buick5563]

JD,

Your usual bold print reply didn't work this time. It's a bit confusing....

I'm easily confused, though.

[JohnD1956]

I didn't know my replies come out in bold print. I apologize for that. I'll have to re work my reply above. even I'm confused, except I still don't believe Disc brakes are worth the price of conversion.

[NTX5467]

The main "claim to fame" for disc brakes is their fade resistance, not that they really stop "better" per se. We drove drum brake cars for ages and if the linings were at least OEM quality, especially with power brakes, it was more of a battle between the tires and the road surface. Those "famous skid marks"! Then came "finesse" to keep the wheels turning right at the ragged edge of lock-up, for best results -- "analog" anti-skid brakes.

It was the exception to the rule, prior to about 1967, for cars to have only a single master cylinder (other than some Cadillacs and very few other vehicles) to work from. Even if you have a dual system, if one side goes away, it'll still take longer to stop than if everything was working, so . . . still some anxious moments, just fewer feet of them.

Note the later comments from 5563 on brake linings and such. If you can buy new things, that would certainly be something to consider.

Rebuilding the existing system with OEM-spec parts would be the best way to do things, typically. Then you know what's what, where to get it, and so on. Try to get the rubber items from "new stock" rather than "New old stock", too.

If your car doesn't have seat belts, you might want to get some installed as if you're not used to driving one of those older (even early 1970s!) cars with power drum brakes, you'll need to use a "lighter touch" (think "big toe only") on the brake pedal or you'll end up needing some dental work on your two front teeth. Usually, it's that "first stop" that counts, not the third one.

In order to take some of the "bite" out of the brake application, it might be possible to find a brake rebuilder that might use some semi-metallic lining material rather than "normal" stuff. On cold stops, it might take enough added pedal pressure that it might give you time to remember what you're driving before the linings get hot enough to really grab (like that panic stop from 70mph or that drag strip with the "quick" return road). There used to be a local brake booster rebuilder in Garland, TX that also sold some brake shoes with such linings. Seems like it was Praise Dyno brakes? They were, at one time, one of the few businesses that would rebuild power brake boosters in this area. Just a thought.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[buick man]

FWIW: Here is my take on disc brake conversions:

In a nutshell there are a lot of people out there that never really for the most part grew up on anything other than a day to day mantra of pop-tarts, fast food jack-in-the-box, small light cars and long bank lines and the patience of a line junkie.

Put them in a real car that weighs 2 tons and they try to drive it just like that ricer they had before or worse. These are the people that have to for some reason or other "draft" you some 4 to 5 feet off of your rear bumper. The express lane is never "express" enough for them as they are downing their second "Opto Size" 48 oz coffee with 2 cups of sugar in it, just so they can get into that certain nerve groove to meet their day while at the same time and expense, make your day and driving pleasure into an all to certain plight.

Now with that said, those big Buick power drum brakes were the best then with no real stopping problems and are just as good today. The Caveat here however is you can't expect to drive these cars like the type of driver above even with if it had formula-1 brakes. That means no fast lane chasing, tail gating, and always trying to cap the speed limit in the fast lane.

So as mentioned above by some of our more astute members comments, drive these cars with reverence and a properly rebuilt and maintained stock brake system and you will have plenty of might to stop with and time to stop in.

[Guest rsd9699]

Do not drill the drums! Water inside of a drum brake system is not good - If you drive through water - you need to apply the brakes to "dry" them out.

When I was young - I drove my Olds like a crazy man - they have even smaller brakes than a Buick. I lived to tell the tale. Keep the brakes stock. The best drum brakes I ever experienced were on a 64 Impala and they were smaller than Olds and yes the weights of these cars are different.

The only way I can recommend disk brake conversion is if I drove to the top of Pikes peak and down non stop 8 hours a day but then you learn why there is a low gear on automatics.

Ron

[buick5563]

I didn't know my replies come out in bold print. I apologize for that. I'll have to re work my reply above. even I'm confused, except I still don't believe Disc brakes are worth the price of conversion.

They aren't always bold, John.

I just remember in the past when you have done the point by point "Q & A" there was more separation or bold or something. It's beyond my computer expertise to do the multi quote.

Back to the question...

[poci1957]

I am glad to see you guys suggesting to Beemon that the disc brake upgrade is not necessary for most owners. I am visiting from the 1950s Pontiac world and everyone there is always wanting a disc brake conversion, many incorrectly thinking that doing such a swap on a Pontiac is as easy as doing a 1955-57 Chevy (it isn't). There are no off the shelf kits that cover everything and even the incomplete kits still cost $1000 or more and use the original master cylinder.

To Beemon, I agree with JohnD1956 that it is probably not worth it. Your questions about brake theory are generally correct--discs are better than drums, roller bearings are better than ball, dual master is better than single. But how are you going to drive the car? Like an old car, that is how, 2000 miles a year or less on sunny weekends. New ball bearings will last the rest of your life. You can replace the brake lines with stainless and buy new wheel cylinders all for a few hundred bucks and your worries about hydraulics are over. You can rebuild the master yourself with parts from Kanter or somewhere (but do not put it back together with the old parts). Adjust and lube the emergency brake and get new brake shoes with the softest lining possible. Make sure your drums are thick, with good resurfacing and no runout, and do not drill holes. This will all make the system like new, and as these guys said the power brakes will stop that car with the touch of a toe. Just an opinion, good luck, Todd C

[Beemon]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the feedback!

My mother is the type of person that says everything is unsafe and that the Buick is a rolling tank and needs this and that. Heh, the irony, the Dynaflow was used in tanks during WWII!

I found out yesterday that the brake lines are stainless steel, so I don't think I'll need to replace those. The parking brake line is shot, though, so I'll have to replace that for sure. My grandpa did a lot of work in the early 60s on the car with the brakes and front end, but I'm sure most of that will need to be replaced anyways.

Also, why shouldn't I rebuild the master cylinder with the original metal parts? Can't I just glass bead blast them so they're nice and clean and re-use them with new seals?

And say I wanted to make this a driving car for my grandpa before he passes away, as in drive it alot and not just on the weekends so he can enjoy it in his final days, would that be bad for an old car like this?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Beemon, that car can be driven daily. Should be no problem.

The metal parts may be ok when cleaned, but most will come with thw rebuild kit.

Good luck.

Ben

[NTX5467]

Stainless steel brake lines??? I don't recall them being readily available in pre-bent lines until about the later 1980 for muscle cars and such, generally. Sometimes, cold-rolled steel, when polished with ScotchBrite or similar, can be pretty shiney.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest rsd9699]

The WW2 tanks used twin flathead Cadillacs and hydromatics to out manuver the German tanks. Streight 8 Buick's with Dynaslows came out in 1948 long after the war ended.

A rebuilt pb unit would set you back about $300 and the rest of the hoses and new cylinders less than $200 - you can be on the road safely for around $500 - takes a couple of days to slowly do it all but the pb unit - you ship it off or buy a rebuitl - another day. You and Grandfather can out crusing, picking up chicks and sucking face in a week's time.

Ron

[Guest rsd9699]

A good mother is ALWAYS worried about things that can happen to her child. Just living is an accident waiting to happen.

Fix the brakes right one time and enjoy them for years to come. Take her for a ride after the brakes are done - warn her in advance that you are going to demonstrate the brakes and show her it is safe - for you and your passengers.

Ron

[Beemon]

Stainless steel brake lines??? I don't recall them being readily available in pre-bent lines until about the later 1980 for muscle cars and such, generally. Sometimes, cold-rolled steel, when polished with ScotchBrite or similar, can be pretty shiney.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

There's no rust on the exterior, even under all the thirty years of road grime. Plus, my grandfather recalled putting in stainless steel lines. I'm assuming they are, but I will double check.

The WW2 tanks used twin flathead Cadillacs and hydromatics to out manuver the German tanks. Streight 8 Buick's with Dynaslows came out in 1948 long after the war ended.

Hmm, according to an article I read, the Dynaflow was used in the M18 Hellcat tank destroyers.

[NTX5467]

The HydraMatics would have made better sense with their "deeper" low gear, which was "geared" and normally useable rather than a DynaFlow with only "torque converter" reduction as "Low" is not nearly as low-geared as the HydraMatic and (as I understand), not really rated for regular or extended use.

Just a thought . . .

NTX5467

[Guest rsd9699]

There are still a lot of tanks just off the coast of France that sank during the invasion. Saw that on a pbs special. Wonder if anyone is reclaiming them?

Ron

[buick man]

Well as I understand it a lot of those guys are still in the tanks and various entire areas are sanctioned as final resting places. So even with today's seemingly overall lack of civil decorum in many facets, I believe they are still honoring this.

[Guest rsd9699]

Per the PBS show, they made a conserted effor to recover the soldiers and to disarm the tanks but they did not say why the tanks were not recoverered shortly after they sank. I need to see the show a couple of more times to gleam information that I missed the first viewing. Water depth was only 200 or 300 feet as I recall maybe too deep for the forties but maybe not seventy years later?

Ron