No restart after warm up

[heygibb]

From reading other threads, I guess I'm not the only one experiencing engine problems. I recently installed a salvaged ICM/coil pack in an attempt to correct an intermittent problem I had w/ starting my engine. I really was just guessing, since I've never run codes or any diagnostics. My ICM was leaking ooze so I replaced my Magnavox version w/ a Delco setup.

Well, I ran my car down the road about 60 miles yesterday, w/ no problem starting, accelerating or cruising. After a short lunch, my car hesitated to start. Once I got it going, it skipped, coughed, sputtered leaving the parking lot so I stayed off the road and drove around the shopping center to see if it would clear up. It didn't so I parked the car to look under the hood. It stalled. I tried to restart and it would not catch.

Since I had a backup coil pack in the trunk, I immediately thought the first replacement unit had failed. I exchanged them and it still would not start. I put the first replacement back on and tried to start the car one more time, and it did. I drove home w/ no problem, even stopping at a parts store to pick up a new fuel filter. If after replacing that filter, I still have an issue w/ starting, idling and driving, is the crank position sensor the next thing to check? The plugs and wires are only a few years old.

Thanks for any advice.

[wws944]

Two suggestions: check the fuel pressure. Should be 40ish PSI. Pull the little vacuum hose that leads into the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). If there is *any* fuel in it, the FPR is bad.

[harry yarnell]

Crank sensor would be the next thing I'd suspect after fuel pressure check.

[padgett]

Does sound odd that this would start after changing the coilset, usually I look at the last thing done. I did have some issues with the pins in the ICM being kinda short and getting that single screw to pull down the connector properly.

Any more I usually remove the sponge at the bottom of the connector which lets it engage a bit more. Suspect it was softer when new.

Did any codes set ? Generally secondary ignition won't set a code but other things may.

[heygibb]

Two suggestions: check the fuel pressure. Should be 40ish PSI. Pull the little vacuum hose that leads into the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). If there is *any* fuel in it, the FPR is bad.

I'll try to find my gauge. I think I let someone borrow the thing and never got it back. If the psi is off, what do I do then...change the fuel pump?

Thanks

[heygibb]

Does sound odd that this would start after changing the coilset, usually I look at the last thing done. I did have some issues with the pins in the ICM being kinda short and getting that single screw to pull down the connector properly.

Any more I usually remove the sponge at the bottom of the connector which lets it engage a bit more. Suspect it was softer when new.

Did any codes set ? Generally secondary ignition won't set a code but other things may.

I may have been a little confusing in my post. Like you, when the engine acts up in some way, I reflexively attribute the problem to the latest tweak. Since I had just last week installed the Delco coilset and ICM, I automatically thought that was the culprit. I had a second backup coilset in the trunk, so I pulled the first Delco setup and put in the second Delco coilset. The car would not start so I dismissed the coil as the problem. It was then that I put the first Delco coilset back in the car. After that, it started, for whatever reason.

If I had not done any work on the car in the recent past, I would have thought my fuel filter was clogged up maybe. I honestly have been blessed w/ this vehicle, mechanically. I have never been stranded by a breakdown of any kind. When it started spittin' and sputterin', I thought I'd be calling a friend to bail me out. Fortunately, it turned over and started. I drove it like I normally would and had no issues getting home. I'll put the new fuel filter in and keep my fingers crossed.

re codes. I have no device to reveal any codes. I've never had it done. Maybe that is what I should do.

Thanks for the input.

[padgett]

The code reader is built into the Reatta, just press warm and off on the HVAC at the same time as wiggling your ears. See Reatta Data Page

[Ronnie]

You can check for codes following the instructions on my website:

How To Access Trouble Codes - '90 & '91 Models*-*ReattaOwner.com

When the car refuses to start the first thing you should do is to check to see if you are getting fire to the spark plugs. If you have no spark correct that problem before proceeding to checking for fuel problems.

If you have a bad crankshaft position sensor, (I suspect you do), there will be no fire at the spark plugs. A bad CPS will also keep the injectors from opening. The CPS doesn't always go bad all at once. It can give sporadic problems like you describe before it finally stops working completely.

Hope this helps.

[wws944]

Fortunately, the Reatta has a built-in code reader. Turn the key on. (Engine need not be started.) Then press and hold the 'OFF' and '^' buttons on the HVAC panel for a few seconds. All the lights will flash on the IPC, then it will start displaying codes in the area where the odometer readout usually resides. Write them down as they go by and report back.

[heygibb]

Dang, I missed the memo on the code reader.

I just tried the process, w/ the engine off and on. I got the same results. All the lights on the dash light up and go off immediately, on their own. There are no codes showing at all. None. What am I doing wrong? I followed the instructions several times. I"ll keep trying while I wait for more input. Thanks for that info, but w/ no codes, I guess I'm at a standstill.

re getting a spark at the plugs, at idle, I can remove the coil wires one at a time and the engine falters. Doesn't that mean it's getting spark at that particular cylinder?

[heygibb]

Two suggestions: check the fuel pressure. Should be 40ish PSI. Pull the little vacuum hose that leads into the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). If there is *any* fuel in it, the FPR is bad.

Haven't checked pressure but there was no fuel in the vac line to the fpr.

Thanks for that tip though.

[wws944]

Dang, I missed the memo on the code reader.

The built-in diagnostics are one of the more entertaining Reatta features.

I just tried the process, w/ the engine off and on. I got the same results. All the lights on the dash light up and go off immediately, on their own. There are no codes showing at all. None. What am I doing wrong?

Dunno. Once all the warning lights on the IPC light up, you can release your fingers. After a couple of seconds, the panel goes blank. A couple of seconds later comes back on. Then in the odometer area you should see codes start to be displayed. First the 'E' (ECM) codes, then the 'b' (BCM) codes, then the 'r' (SIR - airbag) codes. Then a prompt will come up - 'Ec?'.

Maybe you were too impatient when the IPC went blank?

Edited February 22, 2011 by wws944 (see edit history)

[heygibb]

I'll try again.

After holding the off/^ buttons down, I get the flash of all lights on dash. I let go of buttons and wait and wait and wait. The codes should read w/in 30 seconds or so, shouldn't they? I tried holding both buttons down longer and the four leds above the bilevel, economy, heater and defrost illuminate and stay on until I hit the off button. I still get no codes. I cleared my trip odometer prior to doing this. After no codes, I turn the key back to off then back to on (but no start), and my trip mileage is back. I'll try again tomorrow afternoon, with a clear head.

Thanks

Edited February 22, 2011 by heygibb (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

...

re getting a spark at the plugs, at idle, I can remove the coil wires one at a time and the engine falters. Doesn't that mean it's getting spark at that particular cylinder?

You have to check it for spark by spinning the engine with the starter when the engine will not start. Checking for spark when the engine is running will not help determine if the CPS is going bad.

[heygibb]

You have to check it for spark by spinning the engine with the starter when the engine will not start. Checking for spark when the engine is running will not help determine if the CPS is going bad.

OK

I'll check back when I can do that. Not so sure I can get to it today.

[padgett]

BTW the codes appear in the odometer readout, are you looking there ? (assuming this is the red 1990 in the sig).

[wws944]

I'll try again.

After holding the off/^ buttons down, I get the flash of all lights on dash. I let go of buttons and wait and wait and wait. The codes should read w/in 30 seconds or so, shouldn't they? I tried holding both buttons down longer and the four leds above the bilevel, economy, heater and defrost illuminate and stay on until I hit the off button. I still get no codes. I cleared my trip odometer prior to doing this. After no codes, I turn the key back to off then back to on (but no start), and my trip mileage is back. I'll try again tomorrow afternoon, with a clear head.

Thanks

Hmm. Here are the steps:

1.) Turn key ON. No need to start engine. You will hear the fuel pump and brake pump start whirring. IPC will light up as normal.

2.) Simultaneously press and hold the 'OFF' and 'TEMP^' (not 'vTEMP') buttons. In about 3-4 seconds, several more lights will light up on the IPC. Release your fingers.

3.) The IPC will turn off for about 2 seconds. (Reboot?)

4.) The IPC will turn on, and in the odometer area, any codes will start to display. First the 'E' (ECM) codes, then the 'b' (BCM) codes, then the 'r' (SIR/airbag) codes.

5.) If there are no codes, the display will show 'no E codes', then ' no b codes', and finally 'no r codes'.

6.) The display will then show the 'Ec?' prompt. (At this point one can scroll through various commands. But lets get here first.)

Edited February 23, 2011 by wws944 (see edit history)

[heygibb]

I've been following those instructions. Yesterday, all I got was a quick flash on the dash of all the lights and no following "reboot" w/ codes. Today, it worked the first time. I got six history codes and one current. According to the code list I had the following:

b336H loss of IPC data

b440H air mix door problem

b446H low A/C refrigerant

b447C very low A/C refrigerant

b552H BCM memory reset indicator

I do need a freon boost, but I was looking more for engine related codes. Where do I go from here.

btw, after the diagnostics w/ the engine off, I started the car and tried the diagnostics. I got the same thing I did last night...nothing. I then turned the car off, then turn the key over w/out starting to try the diagnostics again. It didn't work. I had the same flashing of lights very quickly and that was it.

[wws944]

I've been following those instructions. Yesterday, all I got was a quick flash on the dash of all the lights and no following "reboot" w/ codes. Today, it worked the first time. I got six history codes and one current. According to the code list I had the following:

b336H loss of IPC data

b440H air mix door problem

b446H low A/C refrigerant

b447C very low A/C refrigerant

b552H BCM memory reset indicator

I do need a freon boost, but I was looking more for engine related codes. Where do I go from here.

btw, after the diagnostics w/ the engine off, I started the car and tried the diagnostics. I got the same thing I did last night...nothing. I then turned the car off, then turn the key over w/out starting to try the diagnostics again. It didn't work. I had the same flashing of lights very quickly and that was it.

They are mostly all BCM 'history codes'. I'd just clear them. To do that, get into diagnostic mode again. (Note that since the TEMP switch is a rocker, you really need to press the '^' side.) When you get to the 'Ec?' prompt, do the following:

1.) Press FANv (FAN down) until you get to the 'bc?' prompt.

2.) Press FAN^ (FAN up) once to get into BCM mode.

3.) Press FANv three or four times until you get to the 'clr b codes' prompt.

4.) Press FAN^ once to clear the codes.

5.) Press BILEVEL to exit diagnostic mode.

6.) Enter diagnostic mode again. There should be no more history codes.

Of course this doesn't explain your 'no restart after warmup' problem...

Edited February 23, 2011 by wws944 (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

Keep in mind that codes are not set for most of the components that keep a car from starting. Crankshaft position sensor, Ignition Control Module, Low fuel pressure, etc. Most of the codes set by the ECM are for fuel management related to emissions and are set after the engine is running. Oxygen sensor, MAF, EGR, etc.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Most 90s owners report the only current code you have, B447 for very low refrigerant, can only be reset by disconnecting the battery for several seconds and then reconnecting, not via the clear command in the diagnostic mode.

Don't bother with this one though until you are ready to do the recharge as it will just return again and latch again. Just remember it will prevent the compressor from running and will need to be cleared in order to perform the recharge.

I've also got my money riding on the Crank Position Sensor. Fuel pressure problems would give more driveability issues that you're not reporting having. If you do get to check your pressure it will probably be fine. Ignition Modules usually don't heal themselves just via a short cool down in a parking lot, and your car wouldn't be running at all if it was bad.

Your problem with getting into diagnostic mode may be due to dirty contacts in the Climate Control keypad. There have been posts about removing it and cleaning the contacts and replacing.

Here's a link to the instructions on Ronnie's site:

How To Clean 1990 Climate Control Panel - ReattaOwner.com

[heygibb]

Most 90s owners report the only current code you have, B447 for very low refrigerant, can only be reset by disconnecting the battery for several seconds and then reconnecting, not via the clear command in the diagnostic mode.

Don't bother with this one though until you are ready to do the recharge as it will just return again and latch again. Just remember it will prevent the compressor from running and will need to be cleared in order to perform the recharge.

I've also got my money riding on the Crank Position Sensor. Fuel pressure problems would give more driveability issues that you're not reporting having. If you do get to check your pressure it will probably be fine. Ignition Modules usually don't heal themselves just via a short cool down in a parking lot, and your car wouldn't be running at all if it was bad.

Your problem with getting into diagnostic mode may be due to dirty contacts in the Climate Control keypad. There have been posts about removing it and cleaning the contacts and replacing.

Here's a link to the instructions on Ronnie's site:

How To Clean 1990 Climate Control Panel*-*ReattaOwner.com

I appreciate all the input. I didn't realize I'd have to clear that low freon code in order to recharge, so you've saved me a future head scratchin'. i remember seeing that page on cleaning the touchpads a while back. Maybe that is the reason for the quirky diagnostic results.

I guess I'll look into the crank position sensor solution. Is "new" the way to go or salvage yard?

Thanks.

[Ronnie]

I recommend a new CPS. No way to accurately check for a bad one before installing.

[harry yarnell]

Ronnie's right; go with a new one. They're around $40-50.

Seeing how hard they are to pull, and not being able to test them, forget used.

[heygibb]

Ronnie's right; go with a new one. They're around $40-50.

Seeing how hard they are to pull, and not being able to test them, forget used.

Thanks for the info. I have a couple of questions though.

Since there seems to be some work involved in getting this thing swapped out, would it be wise to go w/ Delco vs. Autozone type replacement (duralast)? I'm not sure I can find a Delco on a Sat. (tomorrow), but I can get the aftermarket variety.

When I got temporarily stranded last weekend, is that a typical scenario w/ a CPS going bad? IOW, does it work sometimes and other times, not?...luck of the draw? Does long distance driving cause it to fail due to heat buildup, if it's headed in that direction anyway? Was having it cool off last weekend the reason it started working again? I guess what I am asking, is should I risk driving this car w/out doing the changeout ASAP? I wanted to take a two hour trip tomorrow but am not sure I should.

Thanks again folks.

[padgett]

I carry a spare complete tested coilpack in my car ($20 from my U-Pull-It). Since I only put nuts on two of the three studs, a swap is less than ten minutes even hot ('nother reason I run my engines 10% cooler than stock).

Right now I do not know if the module in my car(s) - all Reattae have Delcos - is a used Delco or a new Wells, does not seem to make a difference.

Usually you will get some warning that the module is going (e.g. won't start hot) so need to pay attention to what it is telling you, in general a secondary ignition problem will not set a code.

[heygibb]

I'm doing the two nut approach, also, on the mounting plate.

From what you are saying, a bad coil will run, if already doing so, but will maybe not start after the engine is killed. Is that correct?

I'm going to change the crank position sensor this afternoon. I am hoping to find some comfort in that. I certainly don't want to be stranded away from home due to a faulty sensor. I wansn't able to find a Delco but got one w/ a 6 yr/ 60k mile warranty from Carquest.

[padgett]

Bad coil will kill 2 cyl. Dying coil/wire/plug will usually stutter on acceleration or low rpm/moderate load. ICM will usually fail hot (e.g.when you try to restart after a hot soak) but may recover when it cools off.

Never say never but I have seen a failing ignition act any way but right, why triage is good.

[harry yarnell]

Are we talking a CPS or a CPS? Crankshaft Position Sensor or Central Power Supply.

I'm betting on the crankshaft position sensor. I've had a bad Echlin right out of the box.

Sorensen (?) is my latest. For all I know, they're all made in the same plant in Mexico.

[Ronnie]

Are we talking a CPS or a CPS? Crankshaft Position Sensor or Central Power Supply.

Crankshaft Position Sensor in my posts.

[heygibb]

Are we talking a CPS or a CPS? Crankshaft Position Sensor or Central Power Supply.

I'm betting on the crankshaft position sensor. I've had a bad Echlin right out of the box.

Sorensen (?) is my latest. For all I know, they're all made in the same plant in Mexico.

Crankshaft Position Sensor. I got one from Carquest. THere is a little more to replacing this sensor than removing a couple of screws, though. I've read numerous posts on other sites re removing the serpentine belt, the pulley while stabilizing the flywheel, the balancer cover, and setting the sensor up and making sure it's in it's proper position... When it gets complicated like this, I read all I can read before I even start on it. I'll report back on what I end up doing (hire the job out or do it myself).

[heygibb]

It took me awhile, but I finally got my ducks in a row and changed out the crank position sensor. The job itself takes a little while to do. Knowing what I know now, I think I could do it in an hour or less.

I read quite a bit about this procedure prior to attempting it. What confused me was the recommendation of using a balancer puller to get the pulley off the main shaft. That wasn't necessary. After breaking loose the 15/16" nut, I backed it off a bit but not completely off. It gave me enough clearance to slide the pulley outward and give me the clearance I needed to r&r the CPS. I was very careful about mounting the new sensor in the proper position as to not have any of the vanes hitting it as the engine rotates.

Unfortunately, my car is starting harder and hesitating for a split second upon hitting the accelerator during idle. I've never had either problem. Tomorrow I plan on disconnecting the battery in case the computer has to relearn this new sensor. If that doesn't straighten the starting out so that it's normal, I'm not sure what I will do. Any guesses on what I may have done wrong?

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Doubt the R&R of the CPS caused this problem, rather now that the car will start hot and go into closed loop, other problems have come to light.

How does the engine run otherwise? (idle, acceleration, under load, constant speed?)

Hard start can just be a bad fuel pump relay which then requires the oil pressure to have to build up before the pump will run when starting.

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? Would help to determine it you have a fuel problem or an electrical issue.

Any trouble codes set?

[Ronnie]

Unfortunately, my car is starting harder and hesitating for a split second upon hitting the accelerator during idle.

Doubt the R&R of the CPS caused this problem, rather now that the car will start hot and go into closed loop, other problems have come to light.

Mc, we must be reading his post differently. To me, he seems to be saying the starting problem got worse with the new CPS. I agree with your post and your request for more info but I feel it is premature to exclude the new CPS as being part of his problems.

I wish I had the answer to what is causing the problems. At this point I think the next logical step would be to check again for codes, then take a look at the possibility of a bad MAF or TPS since the car is hesitating. There is also the possibility that the replacement Ignition control module is faulty.

[heygibb]

Doubt the R&R of the CPS caused this problem, rather now that the car will start hot and go into closed loop, other problems have come to light.

How does the engine run otherwise? (idle, acceleration, under load, constant speed?)

Hard start can just be a bad fuel pump relay which then requires the oil pressure to have to build up before the pump will run when starting.

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? Would help to determine it you have a fuel problem or an electrical issue.

Any trouble codes set?

Thanks for your input.

I don't have a pressure gauge. I don't even want to go there yet.

I had no fluctuating idle prior to the repair. It goes up and down between 800 and 1000 now. The car idled, accelerated, and drove fine before. I only had the problem restarting after a short road trip (hour and a half running at highway speeds). I haven't run the codes since the R & R, and haven't disconnected the battery yet. I am hoping for a reset of some sort after doing that and actually driving the car. All I did last night after I finished was drop it off the jack stands and start it up. It didn't start immediately and spit a bit...neither symptom have I had before, when cold.

I found some info online that might pertain to my situation. I have not seen this procedure spoken about here before so I don't know if it applies to my engine, but it's a procedure called "crankshaft variation learn", referenced as DTC P1336, for techies. I read about it at a site called 3800pro.com.

Here is one of the threads that caught my eye.

Do I Need a CASE Learn? - 3800Pro.com Forum

The earliest 3800 engine they reference there is '97, so I don't know yet if my "C" era engine would require or benefit from this procedure.

I'll post back later w/ any results I get by disconnecting the battery, and/or driving the car.

Edited March 21, 2011 by heygibb (see edit history)

[2seater]

'96 and later is OBD II so it probably is not appropriate for our OBD I system. That said, if the battery is disconnected it does take the ECM a little while to relearn its normal operating characteristics. Checking fuel pressure should be done to eliminate it as a cause of your issues. Simple check that takes only a couple of minutes (if you have or borrow a gauge). It may be coincidence that the problem seems to be worse or one of the replaced parts is not up to snuff.

[heygibb]

'96 and later is OBD II so it probably is not appropriate for our OBD I system. That said, if the battery is disconnected it does take the ECM a little while to relearn its normal operating characteristics. Checking fuel pressure should be done to eliminate it as a cause of your issues. Simple check that takes only a couple of minutes (if you have or borrow a gauge). It may be coincidence that the problem seems to be worse or one of the replaced parts is not up to snuff.

fwiw, I do hear the fuel pump so the relay is good?

I just hooked it back up and had a time starting it. Strong starter but took 45 seconds or so to get it to catch. Then it stumbled a bit, spitting and coughing. I let it idle a few minutes, settled at about 700rpm. I turned it off. It would not restart, like it's not getting fire. If my salvaged coil pack/ICM is bad, I will wonder if all this "do it yourself" trips to the boneyard are worth it.

I'll look more into the case learn issue.

Thanks

I forgot to add that I can't get it to read codes either. I'm getting the "all lights flash", then nothing. I had this problem before when I tried to run the diagnostics. I'll keep trying every so often. Maybe it will work one of these times.

Edited March 21, 2011 by heygibb (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

What do you mean by flashing lights? Are you using the diagnostic system built into the Reatta's computer system? Click the link below.

How To Access Trouble Codes - '90 & '91 Models*-*ReattaOwner.com

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Ronnie was right that I didn't understand the context of what you were describing in your post of the first start after the R&R of the CPS.

I will reverse my stand on the issue. It probably is the ICM or the new CPS.

Fact you hear the fuel pump running I doubt that is an issue.

In a cold start (which that was), the spark is controlled by the ICM with the CPS supplying the signal to it to allow it to command the spark with the proper timing.

The fact it started leads me to lean towards the ICM as the problem. If the CPS didn't work, it would not have started at all.

Since you have replaced the ICM, swap the old one back in and see if that makes a difference in the way it starts and runs.

That should tell if it is the problem or not. Buying used ICMs and Coil Packs is always a gamble, so you could have easily gotten a bad one. Hopefully it had a warranty on it so you can take it back and exchange it for another if it proves to be bad.

[heygibb]

What do you mean by flashing lights? Are you using the diagnostic system built into the Reatta's computer system? Click the link below.

How To Access Trouble Codes - '90 & '91 Models*-*ReattaOwner.com

I had this issue a few weeks ago when I first tried this procedure. After holding the "off" and "temp ^" buttons down for 3 seconds or so, all the lights are illuminated for a split second and then they disappear, w/ no codes. I release the buttons once I see the flash. A few weeks ago, I had to try it numerous times before it activated the diagnostic program. I know it must sound like I am pushing the wrong buttons, but I'm not. I need to figure out how to video the process and you'll see what I'm doing, or not doing.

Before going to bed tonight, I'll try it again. I'll let you know what happens.