No restart after warm up

[heygibb]

Ronnie was right that I didn't understand the context of what you were describing in your post of the first start after the R&R of the CPS.

I will reverse my stand on the issue. It probably is the ICM or the new CPS.

Fact you hear the fuel pump running I doubt that is an issue.

In a cold start (which that was), the spark is controlled by the ICM with the CPS supplying the signal to it to allow it to command the spark with the proper timing.

The fact it started leads me to lean towards the ICM as the problem. If the CPS didn't work, it would not have started at all.

Since you have replaced the ICM, swap the old one back in and see if that makes a difference in the way it starts and runs.

That should tell if it is the problem or not. Buying used ICMs and Coil Packs is always a gamble, so you could have easily gotten a bad one. Hopefully it had a warranty on it so you can take it back and exchange it for another if it proves to be bad.

I can't put my original back in as it is trashed. I am a little perplexed at it being the ICM, as I had no problem whatsoever starting the car cold prior to the CPS installation.

A little while ago, I got it started again, after some effort. I then started pulling plug wires off the coils to see if there was any difference in engine performance. After the third wire, I got bit pretty good so I stopped. But each one I pulled had spark. I'm beginning to think it's the sensor I just put in. I guess that means I just blew $40. I don't think I can return it, can I?

As far as returning the ICM, I think it's been more than 30 days. Don't they either work or don't work? If it starts at all, doesn't that mean it's providing spark?

re the onboard diagnostic, if I get to read the codes, will it pinpoint any of these ignition issues?

[heygibb]

What do you mean by flashing lights? Are you using the diagnostic system built into the Reatta's computer system? Click the link below.

How To Access Trouble Codes - '90 & '91 Models*-*ReattaOwner.com

Here is what I'm getting w/ the off/temp^ combination push. What am I doing wrong?

[padgett]

Don't forget the ECM is also needed to "rattle the injectors". No injectors, no run. While it is rare for an ecm to give problems the odd diagnostics (no codes) raises a warning flag since the ECM codes should be the first to display.

It is best to follow the diagnostic procedure in section 6E3-A chart A-3 of the FSM (Cranks but does not run). It is lengthy but thorough.

[Ronnie]

I can't explain the strange way the diagnostics is acting. It wouldn't be a bad idea to check the to make sure the grounds are clean and tight at the ground junction box behind the battery. All the electronics, including the ECM and BCM must have a good ground there to work properly. Info about it can be found on my website.

You will not get any codes if the ICM or the CPS is the problem.

The next time it refuses to start at all, check for spark by pulling a spark plug wire while having an assistant trying to start it.

[heygibb]

Thanks for both replies.

I'll get into the manual later today.

I think I can check those plug wires, too.

[wws944]

Make sure that when pressing OFF and TEMP^ that you really do press both of them in at the same time, hold them in together, and then release them at the same time. (E.g., it is NOT like holding down the Shift key on your keyboard, then pressing some letter.) The last photo has a different temperature than the first few - which indicates that this didn't happen. So it stayed in 'setting the temperature' mode.

[heygibb]

Make sure that when pressing OFF and TEMP^ that you really do press both of them in at the same time, hold them in together, and then release them at the same time. (E.g., it is NOT like holding down the Shift key on your keyboard, then pressing some letter.) The last photo has a different temperature than the first few - which indicates that this didn't happen. So it stayed in 'setting the temperature' mode.

You are correct. The times in which I'm not 100% synchronized, the thermostat is activated, my temp setting appears, and the fan turns on.

[padgett]

If all the lights come on , it is into the diagnostic mode. Next the ECM codes (may be none) should display in the odometer. If that is not happening I would suspect the ECM is confused.

[heygibb]

If all the lights come on , it is into the diagnostic mode. Next the ECM codes (may be none) should display in the odometer. If that is not happening I would suspect the ECM is confused.

...as am I!

I'm changing out the part I put in and go from there.

[padgett]

OK look at it this way. When you try to start the car the CPS signals the ICM which you already changed so not going to spell out. The fuel pump is turned on and pressurizes the fuel rails. When the ICM receives the signal from the CPS it also sends a signal to the Engine Control Module which tells the injectors to open. No injectors, no fire.

I ofen just intoduce about a 1/2 oz of gasoline into the intake manifole through the octopus just to see if it will fire as part of diagnostic triage.

Next when you press the buttons on the heater the signal goes to the Body Control Module (BCM) which flashes the lights and then interrogates the ECM for trouble codes. If the ECM does not respond it will just sit there waiting.

Since you are having both starting issues and a lack of trouble code display, the common element is the ECM which rarely (but sometimes) fails and there are millions of -253s in recycling centers.

There is one point in the "Cranks but won't run" diagnostic when a check light is placed in the injector line and you watch for flashes while cranking. Did you get there ?

[heygibb]

OK look at it this way. When you try to start the car the CPS signals the ICM which you already changed so not going to spell out. The fuel pump is turned on and pressurizes the fuel rails. When the ICM receives the signal from the CPS it also sends a signal to the Engine Control Module which tells the injectors to open. No injectors, no fire.

I ofen just intoduce about a 1/2 oz of gasoline into the intake manifole through the octopus just to see if it will fire as part of diagnostic triage.

Next when you press the buttons on the heater the signal goes to the Body Control Module (BCM) which flashes the lights and then interrogates the ECM for trouble codes. If the ECM does not respond it will just sit there waiting.

Since you are having both starting issues and a lack of trouble code display, the common element is the ECM which rarely (but sometimes) fails and there are millions of -253s in recycling centers.

There is one point in the "Cranks but won't run" diagnostic when a check light is placed in the injector line and you watch for flashes while cranking. Did you get there ?

I have chosen to exchange the part I replaced, first, before I do anything else. I can't help but think that part is the weak link, since the car started fine before I put the new PCS in there.

I will say that today, once I got it started, it backfired a lot. The power just wasn't there...lots of hesitation.

I should be able to change it out tomorrow. Carquest is exchanging the part at no charge to me, so that's good. I'm hoping for good results.

Thanks for your explanation and tips.

[Ronnie]

Are you certain you didn't get any spark plug wires crossed when you changed the coil?

[heygibb]

Are you certain you didn't get any spark plug wires crossed when you changed the coil?

Yes. I've been driving several weeks since the coil change. I have numbered my wires w/ a silver sharpie at the coil end, so that's correct. I did reseat them to make sure of the connections.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

This time when you get the harmonic balancer free, pull it all the way off and check the two shutter rings on the backside for issues. Watch out for the key on the shaft. Should stay in place, but if not put it back before remounting the pully.

Also take the time to inspect the electrical connector that plugs into the sensor for condition of the pins and wires etc. A poor connection can do the same things as a bad sensor. Little contact cleaner wouldn't hurt.

[padgett]

OK you said you changed the CPS by loosening the bolt and just sliding the balancer out a bit, correct ? DId the backfiring start after that ? Wonder if the woodruff key might have slipped out.

[heygibb]

This time when you get the harmonic balancer free, pull it all the way off and check the two shutter rings on the backside for issues. Watch out for the key on the shaft. Should stay in place, but if not put it back before remounting the pully.

Also take the time to inspect the electrical connector that plugs into the sensor for condition of the pins and wires etc. A poor connection can do the same things as a bad sensor. Little contact cleaner wouldn't hurt.

Well, I did the job prior to reading this. I didn't take the pulley entirely off...just moved it enough to clear the sensor. The shutter rings are the concentric rings of vanes, I guess. When removing the original sensor, I tried to snake through the vanes where there was a common opening and bent one a hair. That's when I changed course and loosened the pulley to remove the sensor. (I had read several places that changing out the sensor was possible w/out pulley removal by lining up adjacent open areas of the vane rings.) I straightened the one vane back up during the first replacement procedure. It cleared properly, once tweaked a bit.

I did spray electrical cleaner into the plug end prior to snapping it back in place.

After the install this time, I turned the key on w/out starting it just to let the fuel pump do its thing. I then cranked it and it started right up. There was no hesitation or backfiring. However, when I drove it down the road, I didn't get the sense I was getting full power...like a plug fouling or bad wire or coil, etc. Tomorrow I will go over all the wires again, make sure they are routed properly and seated. I'm not sure I can remove all three coils as some of the hex screws are rounded and I can't get purchase on them to back them out. If I could, I would put my second set in to see if anything changed.

I'm a little flustered to go back and look, but if the ICM (not coils) was bad, the car would not start, right?

btw, I have periodically tried to get the diagnostics to work but no luck.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Sounds like the new CPS solved the big problem.

Did you run long enough to go into closed loop ignition? Probably 4 or 5 miles?

ICM has very little to do with how the engine runs once closed loop is entered, but quite a bit until then.

Bad one can cause anything from an intermittent misfire to a no-start and lots in between. Also can be temperature sensitive up until it totally fails.

Simplest way to figure out whether the ICM or a coil is bad is to pull one plug wire at a time as you tried before and see it there is one plug that doesn't cause the missing, or a coil pair that reacts the same. Each coil fires two plugs so if it is bad the two plugs associated with it will react the same way while the other don't. A single plug or multiple unpaired plugs not causing an increase in the missing could be the ICM.

Are your plug wires and plugs in good shape? Could be to blame too.

On getting into diagnostic mode, do the off button and the up temp button work well by themselves when pushed. I have heard of the membrane keypad switch cover getting dirt behind it causing them to be intermittent. That could keep the BCM from entering diag mode.

Other than an issue with the ICM, coils, wires or plugs, the diagnostic codes will be invaluable in tracking down problems.

[heygibb]

Thanks for hanging in there with me. lol

The wires are about 4 years old and "look" like they are in good shape. They are clean and pliable...doesn't mean a whole lot but that is how I would describe them. I haven't put an ohm meter on them, since they were working fine.

I guess I haven't gotten it into closed loop yet, as I only drove a mile and parked. After my girlfriend's shift was over, we drove it a mile home. It was tricky to start for the run home and it runs rough.

I'll try the wire pulling excersize but what has me confounded is the odds of the ICM failing at all, at this precise moment, when the car started fine before the sensor was put in. It idled fine. It ran fine. It just wouldn't re-start after a long trip.

re the touchpads working or not. I have never had one not respond to a touch. Even if their response was intermittent, the diagnostic would work those times it did work.

If I take my car to the shop, will he be able to diagnose exactly what is going on w/ his diagnostic tools? Or will he be guessing as we are? I've never had it in the shop for troubleshooting since the first year I had it, so I am not familiar w/ what they can ferret out w/ this OBD-1 system.

[Ronnie]

How to read the codes with the ALDL

when the on-board diagnostics will not work:

* Remove the cover from the ALDL connector under the dash.

* Jump terminals A and B (see diagram below) with a paper clip.

* Turn the ignition key to the on "ON" position but don't start the engine.

* The system will enter the diagnostic mode. In this mode, the computer will display a Code 12, three consecutive times, by flashing the "SERVICE ENGINE SOON" light. A Code 12 consists of one flash, a short pause, then two flashes in rapid succession.

* After Code 12 is displayed, any stored trouble codes will be displayed by flashing the "SERVICE ENGINE SOON" light. All codes are displayed 3 times each then a code 12 will repeat.

* Write down the codes and post here.

* Remove the paper clip and replace the ALDL cover.

[padgett]

The Reatta does have an ALDL connector for a shop's scan tool to connect.

[heygibb]

No codes, either current or history. I get the code 12 looping continuously.

re earlier post, I pulled individual wires off of coil pack, and each showed a negative effect on idling

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

All plugs seem to be firing then.

Kind of a long shot as we're leaning electrical, but have you tried unplugging the MAF sensor and seeing what effect that has on the idle? Can also tap with the butt of a screwdriver or something and see what that does to the idle.

[heygibb]

All plugs seem to be firing then.

Kind of a long shot as we're leaning electrical, but have you tried unplugging the MAF sensor and seeing what effect that has on the idle? Can also tap with the butt of a screwdriver or something and see what that does to the idle.

Here is what I did while engine running,

I unplugged MAF sensor >>>no effect

plugged it back in >>> killed the engine

After restart,

I unplugged IAC >>> no effect

plugged back in >>> no effect

I unplugged sensor below MAF (speed sensor, maybe?) >>> no effect

plugged back in >>> made engine race ( idle speed increased)

I then unpolugged MAF again >>> engine struggled to stay at idle

plugged back in >>> engine returned to normal idle

[padgett]

Secondary ignition (coils, plug wires, plugs) will generally not set a trouble code. BTW the pictures do not show diagnostic mode. Everything lights up e.g. speedo reads 188 mph, all warnings are on, and all gauges show max.

[heygibb]

BTW the pictures do not show diagnostic mode. Everything lights up e.g. speedo reads 188 mph, all warnings are on, and all gauges show max.

Correct I uploaded the videos to expose anything I might be doing wrong to get the diagnostics to work. From what has been said, I was hitting the right buttons.

Since the off/temp^ procedure failed, I tried the paper clip approach, and I got no codes (except for code 12). Like you said, it wouldn't reveal anything we're working w/ now anyway, from what I have been reading.

[Ronnie]

Were the instructions and photos I provided for checking with the paperclip helpful? If so I intend to add them to ReattaOwner.com to help someone else in the future.

[heygibb]

Were the instructions and photos I provided for checking with the paperclip helpful? If so I intend to add them to ReattaOwner.com to help someone else in the future.

Yes. Your instructions were very clear. I saved them in my Reatta folder for future reference. Thanks for your site, btw.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

One more thing you can try is to check that the ICM and coils are well grounded thru the mounting plate and mount. Changing the packs in the field may have resulted in a dirty mounting surface, and the sandwich and mounting nuts may not have been tightened enough to give a consistent ground.

Remove entire assy from engine mount and clean the bottom of the ICM pack and the top of the mounting bracket.

Remove the 6 hex head screws and take off the 3 coils and remove the ICM from the backing plate. (You mentioned that some of these screws were rounded off and they may not be tight enough to give good ground to the coils and ICM. Replace the bad ones or cut a slot in the head so you can R&R with a screwdriver if necessary.

On the ICM, check the 2 tabs where each coil mounts to the ICM are clean and straight.

Clean the bottom of the ICM module, and the top of the bottom plate. Not only does the plate provide a ground surface, it also acts as a heat sink for the ICM.

I prefer to mount the mounting plate to the engine bracket mount first, using all three nuts and tighten securely first. There is a ground wire on the stud where the engine bracket mounts to the engine that makes the front nut hard to get to. (At least it is on an 89, and I assume other years have it there too.) Make sure this wire end is clean and secured tightly to the engine stud while you're under there.

I prefer to leave these 3 plate mounting nuts in place and make future changes of the ICM and coils via the 6 hex head coil screws. Much easier to see, get to and work on then the bottom nuts especially on a hot engine. If you prefer to only use the rear 2 mounting nuts and make your changes using them fine, but still make sure that ground wire on the engine bracket mounting stud is clean and tight , and you tighten the 2 nuts securely.

At this point mount the 3 coils to the vertical tabs on the ICM, and place the ICM and coils on the plate lining up the 6 holes in the ICM with the plate and secure with the 6 hex head screws making sure they are snug.

Attach the the ICM connector and the plug wires in the correct spots and you're done.

While like everything else it may not make a difference, it's cheap, fairly easy to do and you can rule out a poor ICM ground from the list of possible cause.

[heygibb]

That kind of detail would not have crossed my mind. I'll do that tomorrow. You probably guessed I am using just 2 of the 3 mounting screws. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and will let you know when I get this done. Etching the rounded hex screws for a slotted screwdriver sounds like the ticket. Thanks for that tip.

The one thing sticking in the back of my mind, is why am I having to troubleshoot something other than what I messed with? It doesn't really make sense to me, if it started and idled ok before this sensor change-out. That sensor can only be mounted one way.

Edited March 25, 2011 by heygibb (see edit history)

[padgett]

I use just two screws and never had an issue. Weak part seems to be the 14 pin connector - pins are a tad too short. If it makes a difference, please let me know (never say never).

[heygibb]

I use just two screws and never had an issue. Weak part seems to be the 14 pin connector - pins are a tad too short. If it makes a difference, please let me know (never say never).

I will Padgett. I don't see it making a difference either, but it's possible, I suppose.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

As long as the surfaces are clean and your mounting nuts are tight, you will be fine. But to me, the second big advantage to your Delco upgrade is that you never have to futz with those 3 mounting nuts again. Its much easier to work on twice the number of screws that are easily seen, readily accessible and gravity helps keep in place vs 2 or 3 that aren't in plane sight, in a confined space, and tend to fall into the dark hot engine compartment when loosened.

Just my opinion. Now if the hex heads on the 6 screws were just the same size as the one on the connector you could do the hole job with just on socket instead of needing two different sizes.

As an aside, while the same pack will also fit in a 99 Olds with a series 2 engine, the 6 hex head screws are slightly smaller and won't interchange. Need to reuse the ones that are installed when I swap in one of my Reattta spares. It tends to chew thru ICMs faster than the Reattas probably due to heat issues.

[heygibb]

Well, I walked away from the car for a few days. I had other things to do anyway but I didn't feel I was getting anywhere.

Today, I removed the ICM/coil pack and cleaned the mating surfaces. I wire brushed the spade contacts for the coils, and sprayed the connector pins w/ electrical contact cleaning spray. The car started right up, but still sputtered and hesitated when I hit the gas. Disappointed, I put in my original Mag ICM/coils. The gasket is trashed between the two, but it worked. It seemed to respond to the accelerator normally, at first. After it idled awhile, it started backfiring a little when I pressed the pedal. I let it run awhile and turned it off. It was difficult to get restarted.

So, tomorrow, I'm going to the u pull it and grab another ICM. If that doesn't clear this up, I'll keep my appointment at the mechanic's on Wednesday morning. I need to resolve this.

p.s. I grabbed a ICM/coil assembly from a '93 Olds 88, installed and still had same problems. Off to the mechanic tomorrow.

Edited March 29, 2011 by heygibb
update (see edit history)

[heygibb]

The shop indicates I have a bad fuel pump. Seems odd that my sputtering only started w/ the crank position change-out though. I'll see how it drives when I get it back. Thanks for all the input on this. You are always a great help.

[Guest WEB 38]

Im having a simaliar problem with a 93 plymouth voyager would quit after about 8 or 9 miles than restart after setting about an hour only to quit again after another shot run frist I put in a new coil pack same thing next put in new fuel pump same thing next put in new crank sensor ran fine parked it for a week started it up and running rough and back fireing did not have that problem before .took to the sensor back to advance for another havent put it in yet hope it was a devective sensor if not Im totaly lost. Bill WEB38

[heygibb]

One thing I left out of my story, is that my mechanic said sometimes components need to be Delco parts. He uses Carquest daily for parts, but said that could be an issue. He'll let me know after the fuel pump is in, I guess.

[Ronnie]

The shop indicates I have a bad fuel pump. Seems odd that my sputtering only started w/ the crank position change-out though. I'll see how it drives when I get it back. Thanks for all the input on this. You are always a great help.

I hope the fuel pump will fix your problem so you don't have to deal with it any more. However, it seems odd to me that the symptoms would change when you swap electrical parts if the fuel pump is the problem.

[heygibb]

I hope the fuel pump will fix your problem so you don't have to deal with it any more. However, it seems odd to me that the symptoms would change when you swap electrical parts if the fuel pump is the problem.

Agree 100%. That's why I don't feel good about this being resolved w/ a new fuel pump. I can live w/ the repair costs since this car has been very good to me mechanically. Prorating repairs like this over a 21 year span of time, makes it acceptable as far as I'm concerned. This is my first fuel pump replacement. But like most people, I like to resolve issues in a logical way. This isn't logical.

[padgett]

I have had bad luck with anything other than Delco fuel pumps, is hard enough to get to I do not want to go in twice.

Idling but misfire under load sure sounds like ignition. What were the rail pressures ?

[heygibb]

I have had bad luck with anything other than Delco fuel pumps, is hard enough to get to I do not want to go in twice.

Idling but misfire under load sure sounds like ignition. What were the rail pressures ?

I had no gauge and have not spoken w/ the mechanic yet. He had a hospital emergency this afternoon to deal with and was not available.

I was going to ask if the fuel pressure regulator was suspect and how does he explain the sequence of problems I had relative to the pump failure vs. sensor replacement. I'll talk to him on Monday, I suppose. I did make it clear I wanted Delco only for the pump though, and he agreed.