Shop Rat Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 This just showed up on Yahoo News.Million-Dollar Dream Cars- Yahoo! Autos Article Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrspeedyt Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 would be nice for '67 thunderbirds to be a 'million-dollar dream car'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Finally, a Top 10 list with 10 cars I'd love to own, but I'd put the '33 Alfa at the top, these cars are in a class of their own. That was the one car Henry Ford himself admired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. Ballard 35R Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Yes, that Alfa is truly something special. Too bad they can only use auction results and can't include private sales such as the Type 41 Royales or the Daytona Coupe (Cobra) in Fred Simeone's collection. I shudder to think what some of the cars in the Collier Collection would bring. How could you ever put a price on the pre-WWI GP Peugeot and Hisspano-Suiza? The Cunningham race cars are nothing short of priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silverghost Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) This sort of article only brings more auto speculators & "Flippers" into our old car hobby~~~Not true "Car Collectors" ! You see these people at the Barrett~Jackson & other auctions all the time ~~~~Along with the nutty high prices that they pay . In my pinion an article like this does our old car hobby no good at all ! Edited February 5, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Brad, I think it is nice to see REAL collector cars get some press, doesn't hurt to show the masses true artwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shop Rat Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Brad, I think it is nice to see REAL collector cars get some press, doesn't hurt to show the masses true artwork.Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silverghost Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) There are many AACA & Forum members here who are true car collectors & car lovers that have been sadly priced-out of the market for the type of cars they always dreamed of owning by these new speculators that I mentioned. Any time you read any article in a financial magazine about old Classic Car values the prices go-up with new "Flippers" & Speculators getting into the old car "Market" just trying to find a way to Cash-In ! These folks don't care about the type of investment as long as they think they can make BIG money investing in cars,real estate, stocks, art,etc ! Believe me these sort of folks live all around me here ! They have no real true Collector's Love for the cars themselves !Only their potential value ! These sort of articles only start a feeding frenzy for old collector cars. Everyone wants to cash-in & make a quick buck $$$! If you don't believe me just look at what has historically happened in the past with Ferrari & Muscle Car speculation, Hemi Mopars are a great example here today ! There has been a price "Bubble" on these sorts of autos caused by similar articles published in the past ! In the case of Ferrari the speculator "Bubble" burst and prices dropped suddenly like a rock ! A neighbor woman here bought a T-Bird at the B~J Scottsdale auction last year for crazy money and thought she could "Flip-It" and cash-in Big Time at the B~J Palm Beach Auction.She only put several hundred miles on this baby bird while she owned it ! Needless to say in this short period of "Speculation" she lost her shirt ! But she plans to speculate on another Full Classic next time~~~And Very Soon ! Edited February 6, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moskowitz Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Judging some one's love for historical automobiles by the size of their wallet is patently unfair. Many wealthy people who have worked hard enough or are fortunate enough to buy what they like are every bit a "car guy" as people like me who only have modest cars. I know some of these people and they are just as down to earth as the rest of us.This is the real world and whether you spend millions on a Monet or a Delage it only means someone is appreciating them and saving them for posterity. If someone is only in this for the money so be it, it is there right to be a entrepreneur. If the market goes soft, it hurts them not you or me. Do I moan the fact I cannot buy a high HP brass car for my budget? Sure, but it is no one's fault.Nutty high prices? I know a man who was criticized for buying a 7 figure car he loved. What most did not know is he bought it for way less than the seller had in it and it is worth way more today then when he bought it. Nutty? Some thought so at the time. I have had a mantra for a long time: "No price is stupid if it is a car you love, want and can afford". Not everyone at these auctions are buying to speculate!What about the sellers who have seen cars appreciate and are now able to afford retirement! Afford sending their grand kids to college, etc. Generalizations are just that and based on personal viewpoints.Getting press about collectible cars is important on many fronts as long as we are not being attacked as a hobby. I do not expect all of us to think the same. It would be boring if we did but I do know that too often on this forum and other places we try to pidgeon hole people or divide the hobby into camps. No need for it and it is destructive to our hobby's future. Just my view from this side of the world...Bob, we agree on something??? What is the world coming too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silverghost Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) Steve, Susan, Bob, and others~~~ I do not disagree with every point you make~~~ But~~~I do know many wealthy people who DO speculate on old cars only purely as an investment !My uncle is one of them ! Those type of folks really don't care about the cars for what they really are ! I find that after such an article appears in some financial publication I often get phone calls from business associates who "want to get in on the action" and they try to pick our brains as to which cars will bring them the most return for their short term investment money. When I do find that they are really only speculators I try to discourage them if at all possible ! We have also gotten calls from similar wealthy folks who I do find truly love these great old autos.I try to help these folks if at all possible !These folks often become some of the very best old car collectors ! In my 55 years in this hobby I find that the articles that appear in ONLY financial publications only fuel the speculators !They are only looking for the next "Big Deal "! The real true collectors not only read Forbes but other Auto related hobby publications ! In my opinion once financial speculators enter any hobby it is soon spoiled for the real true collectors who have a true love for the hobby ; and in our case~~~old cars.They are often soon simply priced out of the hobby !The hobby soon becomes BIG business and the real true hobby collectors are soon priced-out of the hobby ! The old car hobby looses a number a GREAT & FINE people as a result !I know many older car collectors today that could never afford to buy the cars that they once did buy twenty-thirty years ago !To me this is very sad ~~~ Many young people today have no chance at ever owning their dream cars~~~Or ever building a Brass!Era or Classic car collection~~~Why ????Because of the HIGH cost of entry into this end of the hobby .How sad is that ? I remember well when Model "J" Duesenbergs were selling for only $30 K~~~ My Father remembers them selling for $ 500.-600. !Today these very same cars are selling for $ 1 - 2 1/2 Million !Only a select few can now afford these cars !About half of these cars today are owned by speculators !I know this for a fact !To me this is very sad indeed ! To true collectors like myself, and others, it's NOT about making big money on a car investment.It's all about the cars themselves !I am not , and never have been in this old car hobby to make big $$$ money !It is my HOBBY~~~Not a Business !Years ago, when I was a kid, the old car hobby was not about making big money~~~Folks would give you the old cars~~~Other collectors would also give you needed parts !Sadly this has changed today for many people !Is our old car hobby better having new speculators-only comming into it ? That's for YOU , the readers here, to decide for yourself !Sadly~~~For Me~~~The hobby has become ~~~ a BIG $$$ Business ! On a related note~Steve~~~ It seems you & I never agree on anything !Such is life I guess ? Edited February 6, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 There is something wrong with #4. There is no way the pictured BMW brought that kind of money. No way no how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 When much of the unfounded griping regarding prices and class warfare arises, people almost never take into account that the population of the world has doubled over the last 50 years (when the hobby was very much coming into its own) while that of the United States has stayed virtually the same. As the standard of living has increased across the globe, if it is fair to assume interest is collecting automobiles has remained at a constant (and probably increased), demand has increased. As we all know in a free market, demand sets the price, and like they say -- they ain't makin' anymore of 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. Ballard 35R Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) There is something wrong with #4. There is no way the pictured BMW brought that kind of money. No way no how.I totally agree with you. While I think the BMW 328 has an important place in automotive history, I just don't think it deserves the price it brought. Perhaps there were two Germans who wanted it for their respective collections and took advantage of a weak dollar!Brad, please don't get so emotional about the whole subject. Most of us are enjoying a discussion about what we think of these cars and how we rank them as opposed to the auction results. It is not a discussion of flippers or speculators. Edited February 5, 2011 by A. Ballard 35R spelling (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I totally agree with you. While I think the BMW 328 has an important place in automotive history, I just don't think it deserves the price it brought. Perhaps there were two Germans who wanted it for their respective collections and took advantage of a weak dollar!Brad, please don't get so emotional about the whole subject. Most of us are enjoying a discussion about what we think of these cars and how we rank them as opposed to the auction results. It is not a discussion of flippers or speculators.The article is wrong - I just don't believe that car brought that money. Not even if two drunk billionaires were fighting over it. There was a very special 328 with a well know prewar racing history (leMans, etc) and I believe the price was way up there but it wasn't this car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. Ballard 35R Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Thaks for the additional information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 RM's auction results list the sale price as, "confidential" and the photo in the Forbes article is incorrect -- completely different animal (see link below):RM Auctions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Special cars have always been special. The cars on that list were exotic, beautiful and expensive when they were new, and have remained so throughout their lives. Those aren't cars that you could have bought for $100 in the '70s and suddenly turned into gold overnight because of speculation (I'm looking at you, Hemi Mopars). The cars on that list have consistently changed hands for tip-top prices that often defied the market. The numbers have changed, but the relative value of the cars has not. Bugatti Atalante coupes and Ferrari California Spyders have always, always, always traded hands at record-setting prices. Duesenbergs cost $30,000 when the median price of a new house was $37,200 (1975), so it's all relative and it was still a crazy amount of money for a car. At the time, that was not a number an average hobbyist could afford, even though today $30,000 is not a huge pile of cash.No doubt that "auction fever" spurs many of these prices, and I often see cars selling for prices well above the cost of duplication (i.e. I could build/restore an identical car for less than the selling price). But that neglects the thought that some guys just don't care about the price--they want the car. I have a client and I'm selling a few of his cars for him. He goes to auctions and just buys the cars he likes, he doesn't really care how much they cost, he just loves the cars. Is there a more pure love of the hobby and the hardware than that? I'm certain he's not alone. The fact is that for them, buying a $500,000 car is like me buying a used Ford Taurus. On the flip side, they have also raised the bar in terms of quality of materials, the availability of aftermarket and reproduction parts, and the overall visibility of the hobby. As Steve said, they're just regular car guys and if you couldn't see their bank balance, you wouldn't know they were any different from you. They just love cars.Honestly, if you could afford a $1,000,000 Duesenberg, you'd buy one, wouldn't you? You wouldn't futz around with 1953 Plymouths and 1947 Chevys (with all due respect to the guys who do).The other thing I've learned as a professional in the hobby is that EVERYONE thinks their car is worth more than it is. EVERYONE. No matter what it is, no matter what kind of "salt of the earth" kind of fellow is selling it, even these "regular hobbyists" with garden-variety cars, its rare to find an owner with a market-correct transaction price in his head.I kind of resent the implication that people like me are somehow parasites or "ruining" the hobby. I look at myself as a marketing assistant. The guys I work with don't want the hassles of answering 40 E-mails a day from tire-kickers, they don't want to constantly show the car to picture collectors and dreamers who simply want to know what it's like to drive a 1932 Packard dual cowl phaeton, and they don't have time to conduct market research and a marketing campaign. Ever tried to find a notary on a Sunday afternoon when someone comes to buy your car? What about shipping it to Holland or Australia? I bring a lot of convenience into the process for them--is that worth 5%? Not all my clients are wealthy, either, they just don't want the headaches that come with selling a car. And like I said, I don't set the prices--I advise them about market-correct pricing, but almost every client already has a number in his head, and it's rarely market-correct. Not much I can do about that. I'm sure as hell not getting rich, but I do meet some wonderful people and I have driven and enjoyed some spectacular cars, even though they are not mine.Like the 24 hour news coverage that makes us all think the world is going to hell faster than it ever has (when it isn't, we just know about more of it), the wide-ranging publication of sales prices make us all aware of the numbers. Rich guys have always been rich, and they've always bought nice cars. The rest of us have always bought cars that we find interesting and enjoy, whatever our financial means. And the nicest cars have always brought top dollar, no matter what the state of the times was. Edited February 6, 2011 by Matt Harwood (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 RM's auction results list the sale price as, "confidential" and the photo in the Forbes article is incorrect -- completely different animal (see link below):RM AuctionsNow this makes more sense. I was pretty sure the article was screwed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Now this makes more sense. I was pretty sure the article was screwed up.You really know your stuff. I had to look it up just to see since you were so adamant something was off. Once it gets into this European stuff that's all letters and number, I'm lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 You really know your stuff. I had to look it up just to see since you were so adamant something was off. Once it gets into this European stuff that's all letters and number, I'm lost.A stopped clock is right twice a day . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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