Need Opinions on what is the clear liquid in oil change

[buick man]

Just wanted to get some of your opinions on what is this clear liquid in my old oil!

I am now gearing up to take my pan off and cleaning everything up, rebuilding my oil pump and installing a 1960 oil filter boss for spin-on filters. I am doing all of this to bring my motor out of it's long term sleep, since my motor has sat and not running for at least 30 years that I know of in a garage. Long enough to make the oil on the dip stick to look very new and clean looking. Heck it even smells new. As I rub the oil on my finger it still feels new.

Now on to the oil drain:

I noticed as I slowly turned the drain plug so I could watch in slow motion what was dripping out before I got the drain plug all the way out, I noticed clear liquid coming out. Maybe about a half cup. Like water yet very clear. I let it sit dripping like that for a minute or so and let this clear liquid drain out. Then as I turned the plug out toward the end oil started dripping and the clear liquid was gone. I let it drip like this for awhile and noticed no new clear liquid dripping. Then I removed the plug and drained into a container. I will take it to a guy out at my local airport for an analysis. Perhaps the clear fluid was water. There had been no signs of water on the dip stick or even after I drained it water in the oil as milky or viscous. Just dark oil that still felt very lubricating to the finger as I finger tested it. I wonder what the clear liquid was? Of course I have never drained oil from a verified garage kept car that sat for 30-years or so before and do not know what kind of separation chemistries would be involved here. Would anyone care to comment on what this clear liquid was as well?

Perhaps since it sat so long the water was able to fractionate to the bottom of the pan and sat there. This would mean that at least I have a suspected head gasket. When I originally got under the car I noticed what appears to be new freeze plugs installed although the engine has sat so long that the antifreeze had evaporated out of the cooling system. Perhaps they were having overheating problems and started by removing the freeze plugs and pressure cleaning the heads and block out thinking this was the cause. The radiator found to be about 40% clogged up when it went into the radiator shop.

I bet that since it has had so long to sit that the water separated out of the oil and on to the bottom of the pan. That would explain the clean oil on the dip stick. ie. no milky oil on the stick or water bubbles!

Damn this means if I am correct that the heads should now come off. I was hoping to avoid this. I might know better after the oil analysis.

Anyone care to comment for the sake of discussion?

Edited November 1, 2010 by buick man (see edit history)

[Guest Silverghost]

It sure sounds like water to me.

Perhapps from condensation over a long period of storage time & exposure to wide temp swings with high humidity.

Water is heaver than oil; so it will naturally go to the botton of the oil pan.

Before you pull any heads why not put-in fresh oil and run it a bit to see if any new additional water appears over time. ?

If you do in fact have a coolng system leak the new oil will begin to soon look like a milkshake !

[ply33]

Ditto what SilverGhost wrote. My guess would be condensation based on your location since you are in an area that gets lots of fog and a fairly large temperature change from day to night. Assuming, of course, that Sausalito is where the car was stored.

[Bhigdog]

It's water!

It would behoove you to pull the oil pan and check the condition of both the pan and engine innards. Best case scenario condensation with minor rust on pan bottom. Worst case scenario cracked block. In between scenario cracked head or head or other gasket.

No quick answer but water in the oil calls for further investigation..........Bob

[keiser31]

It's water!

It would behoove you to pull the oil pan and check the condition of both the pan and engine innards. Best case scenario condensation with minor rust on pan bottom. Worst case scenario cracked block. In between scenario cracked head or head or other gasket.

No quick answer but water in the oil calls for further investigation..........Bob

I agree.

[Guest billybird]

Ditto.

[Guest Silverghost]

If you can get your hands on a bore scope you can inspect the engine oil pan & bottom end through the oil drain plug.

Might save you the trouble of pulling the oil pan & possibly the engine

I bought a lighted bore scope and it is fantastic !

Edited November 1, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[buick man]

The car was stored all that time in Los Angeles. Fairly temperate and stable. I was planning on pulling the pan as part of the preservation anyway.

When I first brought it home, I took the plugs out and put some marvel mystery oil into each cylinder with a big plastic hypo like you use in fiberglass/epoxy work. Let it sit for about a week then took a 3/4 inch ratchet and a 1 inch socket and tried to turn the engine over by hand with the plugs out and the belts off. It turned with ease on the first try with little pressure on my part. So that's a good sign.

I will let you guys know what it looks like after I pull the pan and will take some photos. Yeah I wish I had a lighted bore scope. It would be neat to hook it up to my video camera as well. I will look into that.

Kinda curious to see what the oil analysis comes up with as well.

Thinking this out a bit further, if it was a head gasket however, the cylinder that was effected by the leak most likely after all this time would of been frozen/rusted. That is apparently not the case as it spins easily via the hand method. Also when I pulled off the valve covers I was amazed as to how clean the residual oil sitting in the head valleys was. When I pull the valley cover this was clean as well. Nothing milky nor evidence of condensation and or rusted areas.

You know this clear liquid could of been trapped water vapor that had condensed and was trapped at the bottom of the oil layer. The source could of been atmospheric in nature since I really did not get much out as clear liquid. The oil volume amounted to approximately 6-quarts.

Edited November 1, 2010 by buick man (see edit history)

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I bet that since it has had so long to sit that the water separated out of the oil and on to the bottom of the pan. That would explain the clean oil on the dip stick. ie. no milky oil on the stick or water bubbles!

Damn this means if I am correct that the heads should now come off. I was hoping to avoid this. I might know better after the oil analysis.

Anyone care to comment for the sake of discussion?

I think your belief is correct, particularly with the noted absence of moisture droplets at the top of the dip stick. Engine oil will separate like that in far less time than 30 years. I would suggest that if you drop the pan and there is no visible rust anywhere on the crankshaft and you can rotate the engine by hand (socket wrench on the crankshaft pulley nut), it may well be okay.

Jim

[buick man]

Thanks for that. I am going to drop the pan and examine the entire inner case and crank area. Kinda a mystery about the new freeze plugs. I think my hunch on that is correct as well. I will ask my oil guy as to about how long it would take oil to separate to this state and see what he says too.

[ply33]

If that water is there from condensation from sitting so long, then there might be similar issues with the lubricants in the transmission and rear end...

Also, DOT3 brake fluid is hydroscopic...

Might want to flush and replace all fluids before driving the car.

[buick man]

That's a very good point indeed as well. I bought the car this past spring and have not even started it up yet. My mission is to go through every major system components step by step. I am starting with the engine and fuel delivery system. Clean out the tank replace the OEM rubber fuel line from tank to fuel pump. I have the cooling system done and have concentrated on and have completed a very extensive flush out of the block and heads via compressed air/water combo setup I made. Now it is on to the oil pump, vacuum pump etc. If everything goes well with the block and pan then I will zip it up with it's new timing chain set and new gaskets with rebuilt AFB and see if I can fire her up. That in itself will be a major step forward.

These dynaflows dry out their gaskets just from sitting so I am going to pull that out as well and tear it down and rebuild it after the engine is running.

[Guest]

No question that it's water. Remember that it is a by-product of combustion. Every engine from brand new to very old and worn out has blow-by. The blowby just varies in relation to how worn out the rings/cylinder wall seal becomes. Make sure you check all the bearings and crank journals in this engine and have a good look at the cylinder walls and pistons and rings. also check the cam bearing surfaces and especially the lobes for pitting. I have seen this happen to many engines that have been sitting a long time. The water has separated from the oil. It's the first thing that comes out when you drain the pan .....or even a gas tank that has a drain plug.

FYI if your going to store a engine for future rebuilding you want to change oil, run the engine up and get it to operating temp-a nice long drive and then back to the garage and drain the oil and pull the engine. Once the engine is out remove all acessories and vacuum bag the engine just like you would do on a rebuilt engine for prolonged storage.

Don

[buick man]

Well I was not going to tear it down and rebuild it. That has not been my intention rather just see if I can get it up and running just for the exercise.

helfen: If you have seen this from engines that have been sitting for a long while, did this necessarily mean they needed to be overhauled or that the separation had occurred due to the length of time sitting and that if no pitting or rust has occurred things should be fine?

Also, are you saying I should drop each rod bearing then each main bearing and take a look at them for pitting and or rust and then if O.K., torque them back up during my pan off bottom end inspection? If they are pitted I would assume I would have an overhaul on my hands?

The cam lobes look great as I have taken the valley cover off to inspect. The rockers look great. When I drop the pan I will do a visual as much as I can without pulling the heads and inspect the cylinder walls from the block cradle below. As has been mentioned, if everything looks as good as the upper block and I get a good oil analysis back, I will seal it up and try and get her started. Do you agree?

This week I am going to do a cold compression test and leak down just for kicks.

Edited November 1, 2010 by buick man (see edit history)

[mrspeedyt]

if it cranks over fine just have the oil in it and start it up and see how it runs and go from there. you probably looked for rust on the drain plug and didn't see any. goes for the transmission too... no sense rebuilding good original stuff... imo.

[Guest Silverghost]

I agree with the above statement.

Change all the fluids and take a shot at running the car.

Why look for trouble & do more work than necessary?

There is a very good chance that you are good to go !

I would spend more time now rebuilding the brake system hydraulics .

You will also need to repair or replace the fuel pump or it's diaphram & valves with a repair/rebuilding kit,~ rebuilt pump, or new reproduction pump.

Brakes

Also three new brake hoses , master cylinder rebuild, wheel cylinders, steel brake lines, springs, brake shoes, turn cut drums , etc.

All the above will be sure to keep you very busy !

Edited November 1, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[Guest]

Well I was not going to tear it down and rebuild it. That has not been my intention rather just see if I can get it up and running just for the exercise.

helfen: If you have seen this from engines that have been sitting for a long while, did this necessarily mean they needed to be overhauled or that the separation had occurred due to the length of time sitting and that if no pitting or rust has occurred things should be fine?

Also, are you saying I should drop each rod bearing then each main bearing and take a look at them for pitting and or rust and then if O.K., torque them back up during my pan off bottom end inspection? If they are pitted I would assume I would have an overhaul on my hands?

The cam lobes look great as I have taken the valley cover off to inspect. The rockers look great. When I drop the pan I will do a visual as much as I can without pulling the heads and inspect the cylinder walls from the block cradle below. As has been mentioned, if everything looks as good as the upper block and I get a good oil analysis back, I will seal it up and try and get her started. Do you agree?

This week I am going to do a cold compression test and leak down just for kicks.

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As long as you have the pan down I think you would be foolish not to look at the journals- all mains - all rods- and the condition of the bearings. Wouldn't you want to know?? Besides the pan is off your already there! If everything looked good and the the journals measured OK and were round I would just put a new set of bearings (less than $100) and a new melling oil pump, which is cheap insurance knowing it's done right. If I didn't do that I would forever be always listening and never sure and never feel comfortable on any kind of journey.

Don

Edited November 1, 2010 by helfen (see edit history)

[Dave Henderson]

Hate to be the grinch, but that clear liquid shouldn't have been in there. It about has to be water from a leaky gasket, a cracked valve seat, cracked head or block, what else? Slow seepage over a long period of time could have occurred, and that would be of a less serious nature, in which case I wouldn't rule out using some of the excellent leak stops available that work very effectively, and at minimum cost and trouble. If you do start the engine, look for signs of OIL in the WATER. For detecting exhaust fumes in there, an exhaust sniffer at the radiator opening might tell you something. After miles of use, oil with coolant in it becomes emulsified and can take on a metallic smell, an olive drab coloration, and a noteable drop in viscosity. Take heart, it may not be all that bad.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Hate to be the grinch, but that clear liquid shouldn't have been in there. It about has to be water from a leaky gasket, a cracked valve seat, cracked head or block, what else? Slow seepage over a long period of time could have occurred, and that would be of a less serious nature, in which case I wouldn't rule out using some of the excellent leak stops available that work very effectively, and at minimum cost and trouble. If you do start the engine, look for signs of OIL in the WATER. For detecting exhaust fumes in there, an exhaust sniffer at the radiator opening might tell you something. After miles of use, oil with coolant in it becomes emulsified and can take on a metallic smell, an olive drab coloration, and a noteable drop in viscosity. Take heart, it may not be all that bad.

An occasional dose of a quality cooling system leak stop product is generally a good idea on any older vehicle even if there is no immediate sign of coolant loss. Every new car coming off the production lines get it as a preventative for minor imperfections in gaskets. The effects do not last forever though.

Jim

[buick man]

OK. So it is most likely water. How did it get there? Either via a crack, a failed gasket(s), warped head, or oil component separation. I am leaning (hoping) it is from the latter as there was so very little of it. If a large leak was active at time of shut down and storage and water was trapped in the oil from a significant leak then I would think a more significant amount of water would of come out. When I drop the pan and do a visual of just the insides I should see if any significant water had been in there.

I agree with all the replies. I also agree, doing a complete crank inspection would be the most prudent. However, would you not have to drop the crank out of the block to effectively and fully inspect for out-of-round on the main bearing journals which would also include dropping the transmission first?

I could however, just drop the bottom cap journals and do an inspection. If the liners looked smooth with uniform wear I probably could assume no significant out-of-round main journals. I could do each rod journal as well and could pop the piston/rod up and out of the way so I could see how the inner rod bearing looked as well. In my experience, the only time I have found significant out-of-round conditions on components, it has always been associated with abnormal bearing surface wear, scouring & streaking and or pitting of surface conditions. I can take each rod bearing out and mic them for wear as well or better yet as you say, just replace them with new. This would give me more peace of mind since I am in there anyways.

Another (minimalist) approach would be to take a random sampling of the condition of the main journals and the rod bearing by taking a couple off here or there and see what things look like. If the water was truely significant and the condition had been persistent, then wear conditions would most likely be a homogenous one. - I would think. So with this line of logic, if I take a main journal off and it looks good and then a rod or two off and they look good then this may also be a way to go for now. But I agree, checking the rods and mains out either way would be the best way to go just to be sure while I am in there anyways.

I am going to drop the transmission for it's rebuild so it would be out of the way - just would need to do that first. - One heavy cast iron mother.

Funny how almost Sherlock one becomes as you progress through these old engines having them tell you their story. From the evidence, I am almost certain this one had been overheating thus the new freeze plugs. Who ever did them did a good install job and knew what they were doing and would of checked to see if the water had been in the oil before going to that extent of replacing the freeze plugs in a southern california car. I would hope anyway. In addition, the head gasket does not look new so that is probably why they went with a complete cooling system drain/cleaning and soft plug replacement instead of pulling the heads off due no real gasket failure evidence by significant water in the oil or oil in the water. One can only hope.

Edited November 1, 2010 by buick man (see edit history)

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Freeze plugs (actually plugs to close openings to allow blowing of sand out of raw engine castings) generally always fail thanks to rust. Though everyone calls them freeze plugs, they ain't. Guarantee if ice ever pushes one out of a block the block or heads will be cracked somewhere. The culprit leading to plug replacement is plain water in the cooling system or just crappy material. Overheating would not ordinarily result in the need to replace the plugs. Overheating might cause a pressure build-up great enough to cause rust weakened plugs to totally give it up.

I think you may be getting a bit paranoid in suggesting some of the things you have in terms of inspecting. If things basically look okay from the bottom and you can turn that sucker over with a socket wrench on the crankshaft pulley bolt without water blowing out of the plug holes close it up. Can't turn it that way it's rebuild time. If it turns freely that way I'd button that puppy back up, give it fresh oil and fire it up; though it might be wise to oil prime the engine before actually firing it up since the upper engine is going to be dry as a bone. You'll know soon enough if anything would require a rebuild. You won't have to run it long to determine if oil pressure is indicating anything wrong with oil properly lubricating rod bearings or if lifters aren't pumping up as they should.

Jim

[buick man]

The soft plugs were replaced. No doubt about it. I grew up in the upper midwest where winters are cold and we use to call them freeze plugs. The radiator shops would often take these out if block cleaning to the ultimate was deemed necessary. I was saying they most likely did it to gain access to the inner passages of the block for the clean out instead of just relying on the small drain cock under each side of the block. Of course they could of just rusted out, but the car has lived it's entire life in Los Angeles. The car has many dealer service stickers on it and up to very nearly the mileage on the odometer. The overall car is well preserved so I firmly believe the lady took good service care of the car, while she drove it and before putting it into it's long storage and would of surely kept up on the cooling systems needs.

With all that said, when I did my pressure clean/wash with a setup that I made, I removed the water manifold and timing chain cover as well as the block drain cocks on each side. I flowed water with small controlled bursts of air through the head/water manifold inlet, then through the front block inlet and reversed this all the while having a tube connected to the block drain and the other openings as well with clear tube lines that flowed to a filter fabric material I had on the ground so i could collect and examine what I flushed out. I also flowed up through the block drain and out the heads and front block. I did this procedure over a 2-day weekend and performed it on both sides.

I got a lot of crap out of the block this way. I continued to do this until nothing else came out. I then connected a submersible pump to a bucket containing 2 gallons of "A Must For Rust" which I have worked with extensively and is a medium dilution of phosphoric acid for about 3 hours on each side running this through, then running a distilled water flush followed by a long period of compressed air throughout the block and heads to dry the water passages out. I think I got it pretty well cleaned.

It all hinges on what I find when I take the pan off for inspection!

Edited November 1, 2010 by buick man (see edit history)

[Guest]

Hate to be the grinch, but that clear liquid shouldn't have been in there. It about has to be water from a leaky gasket, a cracked valve seat, cracked head or block, what else? Slow seepage over a long period of time could have occurred, and that would be of a less serious nature, in which case I wouldn't rule out using some of the excellent leak stops available that work very effectively, and at minimum cost and trouble. If you do start the engine, look for signs of OIL in the WATER. For detecting exhaust fumes in there, an exhaust sniffer at the radiator opening might tell you something. After miles of use, oil with coolant in it becomes emulsified and can take on a metallic smell, an olive drab coloration, and a noteable drop in viscosity. Take heart, it may not be all that bad.

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Buick man is talking about water, not coolent. Let a engine sit long enough for water to separate and condense and you will find it in old engines with blowby at the bottom of the pan. Most people don't see this much in cars (1961 Ca. , 1962 in Fed. controlled cars to present day) that come with a PCV system because the crankcase vapors are sucked and reburned into the intake charge. Cars with a road draft tube had a much harder time getting the vapors out to the atmosphere. People who neglected the system ( failed to clean the breather mesh in the caps and the mesh at near the end of the road draft tube) or drove very short distances and not fast enought for a low pressure area to form at the end of the tube to suck out this vapor had a unusually high amount of water/sulpher dioxide and acids built up in the crankcase. When you pulled the oil drain plug water (contaminated) was the first to come out. Buick Man, The reason I want you to look at ALL the journals and camshaft and rubbing surfaces of the lifters is because of this water and the acids. The acids will etch and corrode the surface and the water will help corrode and rust it. Now, verstehen sie??

Don

[buick man]

Aber selbstverstandlich! - Vielen Dank!

Yes I will search the bottom well. The old lady most likely drove it short distances and not very often. Overall: Not too good for an engine. However, my inspections so far of the upper end valve/cam train looks very promising and clean. Cam lobe arcs look good as well as what I can see from the exposed portion of the bottom of lifters. No scouring or etching noticed so far. Will keep all informed. I will photograph this adventure and share it with you guys.

Edited November 1, 2010 by buick man (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I agree about the clear liquid being water, slowly condensing in the crankcase over the last 30 years.

If the engine had been started and run the water would have mixed in the oil to make a grey goo resembling whipped cream. Or at least made the oil look milky.

The fact that it is separate from the oil, indicates that it was not there when the engine was running but accumulated while it sat

It is unlikely that it did any harm. It can't hurt to take the pan off for cleaning and inspection but I wouldn't tear it down any farther unless there was definite signs of wear, damage or rust. I would clean out the pan and put it back on then put in fresh oil and start the engine.

[buick man]

Rusty: It could of been milky as well the last time the engine was shut down and it had more than enough time to fractionate once again into oil and water via gravity. But I think you are right here. If it had a water/coolant leak condition prior to shut down I would think more fluid would of come out. As I recall it was not that much maybe a couple table spoons at the most or probably less and the fluid (water) looked like very clear distilled water.

Well I had a preliminary/initial talk with my oil analysis guru. He brought up the point that as per visually inspecting the oil quality, it appears to still be somewhat new and had not been run that long as miles go before the car's long, long inside garage storage in southern california. Now this jives with the service records and the odometer. According to the service records of this one owner car, the last oil change was made in November of 1970. The odometer read some 59,400 miles at the last oil change. The odometer now reads 60,040 miles. So not too many miles on this oil of about 600 miles.

As Don pointed out, driving short distances and at minimal ground speeds causes the accumulation of vapor to condensation and acid salts to build up in the oil in mass due to the type of crankcase ventilation they used.

Apparently, even though this was a short distance it could of taken the lady 2 years to accumulate the 600 miles. That's a lot of short and slow trips to the hair dresser and grocery store! There is one caveat here. I do not know if the odometer on this car actually works or not. The odometer could of went out of order at 60,040 and has not worked since. But for that to be true the lady would of also had to stop servicing the car or not recording the services into the record since November 1970. Which is doubtful since she kept records up to that time. If I determine that the odometer is not working after I get this thing up and running, then that will throw a monkey wrench into the this whole thing.

However, the overall condition of the engine paint, inside the engine valley and heads shows/hints of an engine that is of low mileage. It is a mystery that I fully intend to solve so stay tuned!

Edited November 3, 2010 by buick man (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

Dont forget when the water is under the oil,,,,It can't evaporate,,there will be little oxygen present,,hense little rust,,Sourse=condensation,,my thought,,,,Ben

[Guest]

Dont forget when the water is under the oil,,,,It can't evaporate,,there will be little oxygen present,,hense little rust,,Sourse=condensation,,my thought,,,,Ben

You can assemble a fresh new engine that is going to be stored for a long time, plastic bag it and vacuum the bag. You will still get rust if you don't molly-coat the exposed metal surfaces. there is enough moisture in the air to do it.

Don

[mrspeedyt]

any update??? (just start up that machine!!!)

[buick man]

My knee made my leg turn into a 2x4 this past week or so. As soon as it morphs back into a human limb I will be back up and about. Sometime in the next month I will be digging into this and will post photos. We have all received a lot of good info so far concerning this topic and about our engines in general. My oil analysis should be back soon as well.

I will keep all posted!