car won't start

[fordmerc]

41 Packard won't start. Fuel squirts into carb if accelerator pushed-blue spark from plug wire to plug- battery fully charged- starter motor sounds fine and engine turns over- "starting fluid" no help. Car ran OK until episode of vapor lock on hot summer day. Drove it home after it cooled, trouble since. Any advice or comments may reduce my ignorance and frustration. Thanks.

[Bhigdog]

Timing..............Bob

[W_Higgins]

Bad coil. When they get hot, they get weak. Cool off and they work again. Also, just because it will jump a spark in the open doesn't mean it's performing at 100%. Under compression it takes a proportionally higher amount of voltage to jump the same gap.

Vapor lock is less common than people think, but it gets all the blame. I probably have a half-dozen cars come through the shop every summer that have been owner-diagnosed as vapor lock and all they need is a new coil.

Edited October 24, 2010 by W_Higgins (see edit history)

[Guest Fitz]

Bad coil. When they get hot, they get weak. Cool off and they work again. Also, just because it will jump a spark in the open doesn't mean it's performing at 100%. Under compression it takes a proportionally higher amount of voltage to jump the same gap.

Vapor lock is less common that people think, but it gets all the blame. I probably have a half-dozen cars come through the shop every summer that have been owner-diagnosed as vapor lock and all they need is a new coil.

I agree with you.

Fitz.

[keiser31]

Been in that bad coil situation myself.

[hchris]

Not sure I would write the coil off, blue spark is good, particularly at starter cranking speeds,nothing to say it wont fail when hot however,oh and how good is the fuel?

Nevertheless with good spark and fuel something should be happening, at least a kick from the engine, did you flood it? perhaps remove the plugs wind it over on the starter a few turns with the throttle wide open,reinstall the plugs and see what happens.

If this fails, then as above, a check of the timing would be in order;next thing would be a compression check.

[fordmerc]

Thanks for suggestions. A coil that works in the Model A did not let the car start. I need to pursue the timing and compression: the timing has been untouched since the car ran OK, and I suspect the compression is low, but again, not different from a drivable past.

Thanks

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Does it even try to fire ( cough, sputter, etc ) including on starting fluid ?

Even if the timing is off, you should get some sign of life...

If it is completely without attempt to fire, I would next check compression and timing...

If compression is reasonable ( at least 60# each cylinder, and all within 10# of each other), and the timing is close, try cleaning & gapping the points, new condenser, and a new set of plugs...

Let us know what you find...

[W_Higgins]

That probably ruled it out, but I'd still suggest that you try it with a new coil. They're cheap and it never hurts to have a new one sitting on the shelf. The compression in your Packard is quite a bit higher than your Model A. Also make sure your plugs are clean. Anything you can do to rid yourself of unnecessary resistance.

[Larry Schramm]

Might check the compression on one cylinder to confirm there is compression. (timing is close)

[caf]

don't know whether it has timing chain or gear but if either has jumped a tooth it is hard to detect. it would throw the timing of the valves off a bit and also the spark,and isn't too obvious. Everyting else would appear correct but it would not start.

[jbbuick22]

Packards use a timming chain, they stretch but do not jump time. If this engine was running well before layup, bad fuel may be the problem. Try starting fluid and see if it fires.

JB

[W_Higgins]

There are lots of good suggestions here. The only reason I harp on it being an ignition problem is your having used starting fluid and still getting nothing. Aside from no compression, as someone else pointed out, even if out of whack in any other form, usually with starting fluid it will at least pop, snort, or do something since it's so volatile.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Try to clean the contact points. Sometimes cars do not start because the points have a little bit oil on them.

[fordmerc]

Thanks to all for ideas. Of course I haven't had time to follow through, but at least I have a list to work with. Working with old cars is a contemplative sport.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Working with old cars is a contemplative sport.

Yes, as long as you don't need it to get to work the next day...

Let us know how you make out !

:cool:

[fordmerc]

Here is a progress (or lack thereof) report:

I removed the carburetor. Puddled in the manifold is 8 ounces of dark brown liquid that smells like a mix of gasoline and starter fluid!!! (I removed it)

Is this because I sprayed too much starter fluid (2 sec spray 3 different days) or pumped too much gas ( Pulled the accelerator link to observe gasoline flow into the carb.)? It is hard to imagine 8 oz from what I thought was going into the carb.

Comments appreciated.

[W_Higgins]

Sounds like old varnished gas build-up, a great deal of which was probably already accumulated, and some of which was dissolved by your doings the other day.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I agree with WHiggins post...

Is this Packard recently resurrected from a long storage, or has it been in service ?

Suggest you try to mop-out the liquid with paper-towels / rags... do NOT use a shop-vac ( or other electric vacuum - risk of fire /explosion ).

I think what you are seeing is a mostly old fuel / residue... starting fluid is mostly ether, which evaporates quickly.

While the carb is off, you might try cranking the engine over for a couple of thirty-second bursts, then try a 2 -second shot of starting fluid into the intake, and see if the engine fires...

If that brown liquid is sticky-gooey, I would next run a compression test... it is possible that if the liquid is sticky, that it may have caused valves to stick-open.

[W_Higgins]

Frank is right. Below are photos from when I removed the carb from a '26 Dodge Brothers while doing a valve job. The cast en bloc intake is a horizontal passage and it was full of the same goo you describe. It's the last thing you want on the stems of your intake valves. Just recently I was brought a Chevy 6 head to disassemble with stuck intake valves due to it having been run with old gas in the tank. After they went to restart it cold all the intake push rods bent.

[fordmerc]

My car was running very well until the episode (not the first) of "vapor lock".

After that, I drove it twice for short distances which fully warmed it up. Failure to start began at the third attempt to drive.

The fluid in my manifold was thin with the fluid consistency and ignition/flame characteristics of gasoline or starting fluid. (I poured some into a flat pan and ignited it) The only difference is that it did not evaporate at the rate of gas or starting fluid when I let it stand in the flat pan before igniting it. (The reason for igniting it was to be reasonably certain that it was not a mixture of water/antifreeze and hydrocarbons).

I'll try DeSoto Frank's suggestion as soon as I figure out how to block the open fuel line from the fuel pump (which works very well).

[W_Higgins]

It's surely some sort of varnish that's been liquefied. It's funny -- on that Dodge the car was set-up for a couple of weeks before I found the goo. Very shortly after removing the carb, the goo that was exposed to air, or dripped, dried up and would shatter like glass. That piece you see stringing out of the carb did the same. It washes right up with Gum Cutter, though.

[stude1946]

Check to make sure your condensor is fully grounded. I ran into a case where I got good spark but discovered that the condensor bracket was broken causing a no start situation.