Where does it end?

[bhclark]

Several weeks ago I replaced the alternator on my '69 Electra. (my fault, I blew the diodes)

Last week, the horn relay decided to stick in the on position (yes, all THREE horns worked well!)

Yesterday, I turned a corner, noticed my power steering was acting up, pulled into the driveway a few blocks away and my water pump blew a leak!

Since the car was stranded at my dad's house, parked on the street (new concrete driveway, that I had to wash the coolant off of), I decided to have a local shadetree mechanic my dad recommended do the work. I didn't want to run into any problems.

We pushed the car 2 blocks to the mechanic. Mechanic installed a brand new water pump, then called me to let me know the head gasket was blown. (Idiot light never came on) The car was spewing a light to medium dose of white exhaust. Being a Toyota mechanic, he wasn't keen on doing the head gaskets, so I limped home.

I'm guestimating the "flat rate" on this job is going to be about 7 hours since the car has AC and PS. I'm not confident in my own ability to do the job, mostly due to the interference of the AC and the extreme weight of the heads on the 430 engine.

So, I'll call my mechanic tomorrow and get an estimate ($750?) on replacing the head gaskets.....but where does it stop?

What if the valves don't look good or the cylinders appear too worn while he has the heads off? Now we're talking valve and/or ring job? If it goes any further than that, I'll have exceeded the value of the car?

The car was up for sale, but now I'm going to be so far under water on it, that I don't know if I'll be able to stomach letting it go. (I do have a son 2 years from driving age....)

So, I'm looking for advice?

Should I try mechanic in a can? $30 for head gasket sealant? I won't do that just to sell it...I just won't do that.

Should I just do 1 head gasket instead of both to save a few bucks?

While it's apart, what else should I do?

I've owned the car 2 years, no work needed until recently other than oil changes. Odometer shows 38000. Near Mint interior means it could be real, a little rust under the vinyl top and by the exhaust and a repaint means it could be 138000.

Water pump appeared to have been replaced before. AC has been switched over to 134 and blows cold.

Car shows inspection stickers on window from 1978, so it could have sat for a period of time since then. I don't know the history.

did I mention I'm on a shoestring budget and have never replaced a head gasket before?

Edited July 16, 2010 by bhclark (see edit history)

[bhclark]

well, now it looks like I need a new mechanic.

Just called mine and he said he no longer works on anything that old. This is the guy who's been doing the work on my '59 and '65.

Anyone have a reference for a full service shop or well equipped shadetree mechanic in the Cincinnati, OH area? Preferably the northern suburbs?

[Bill Stoneberg]

Brian, Looks like it time to learn.. You can do it if you have the tools and all it takes is a sears store to have those. Pull the heads, put in a new gasket and dont look atthe cylinder or valves. What you dont know wont hurt you.

Have your son help you with the implication that he could be driving this soon. 14 year olds can do a lot and are not afraid to tackle things.

Take your time and walk away when you get mad, its not your daily driver is it ?

[bhclark]

Not the daily driver, but my garage space is limited and full.

Taking a car down to non-driveable status for more than a day always makes me nervous as it means something more valuable is left outside.

I may be able to rearrange the second garage to house 2 big buicks and the Model T (sideways)....I'll do some measuring.

My other problem is the cars I work on always have to be running because of the township restrictions....anything parked outside must be licensed, registered and operable. Plus, my driveway is a hill, which means it has to run to get up the hill!

I've got the shop manual and I'll read through, hoping there are some instructions other than just torque specs and order. My 2 biggest worries are

1. the AC components being in the way

B. the weight of the heads themselves. How much do they weigh? I might be able to get some help to get them on and off...but the main help, my 25 year old step-son is out of favor right now (and maybe forever), so can't ask him.

Should I pull the plugs to determine which cylinders are affected and only replace the affected cylinder head gasket or do both?

Either way, it's on the backburner, as I am still trying to get my '58 road ready for AMES....worst case scenario, we'll bring the '65 Wildcat or my '05 Hyundai!

The 95 degree heat has been taking all of my enthusiasm for working in the garage away.......

[Pete Phillips]

Brian,

Don't you just LOVE to spend money on a car you are trying to sell?! Been there, done that, many times. No matter what you do or don't do, you are probably going to lose money on this one--just accept that. It's not a convertible or 2-dr. hardtop or extremely rare 4-door. This is a lousy time to try to sell a car. They just aren't bringing what they should bring, or what we think they should bring--it's the economy. My vote is for the "gasket in a can" attempt. You'll know very soon whether it worked or not. If it works, inform any new owner what you've done, and they can go easy on the engine until they decide to do it right.

If the gasket blew on one side of the engine, it is almost certainly ready to go on the other side, so if you decide to do one, do them both. Head gasket failures are usually caused by an engine that ran too hot for too long--maybe not by you, but by a previous owner.

One advantage you have with a '69 Electra is there is lots of room under the hood to work in. There is plenty of room to unbolt and set aside the A/C compressor without unhooking the freon hoses--wire it up somewhere out of the way. Head gasket replacement is pretty straightforward. There aren't any surprises or extremely difficult things to get at, but it is messy. Coolant goes everywhere when you take the heads off. The heads weigh plenty--probably 40 or 50 pounds each.

15-16 years ago, I had a '56 Roadmaster 2-dr. hardtop. Car had never been restored, little old lady car, never was taken care of too well, but it ran fine and had only 65,000 actual miles. I had to repaint it, rechrome it, put new brakes & tires on, etc. EVERY time I took that car out to drive it to a chapter meeting or car show, it would break down. Every time! Minor stuff, like fan belts breaking, fuel pump not pumping, generator not charging, tire blow-out, whatever, it was always something. I was so disgusted with it that I sold it for about $6000, and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. I was so glad when it was gone. The new owner wrote to me a year or so later, and said it was the best, most dependable old car he had ever owned! Well, yeah, I guess I had fixed everything by then!

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Sherman, Tx

[Pete Phillips]

I need to qualify what I just wrote. The one thing that could cause grief on a head gasket replacement job is if you break off an exhaust manifold bolt in the head. If that happens, a two-day job becomes a 3 or 4 or 5-day job. It is imperative to soak the exhaust manifold bolts with Liquid Wrench or similar, and let them sit overnight, before trying to unbolt them.

Pete Phillips

[bhclark]

I need to qualify what I just wrote. The one thing that could cause grief on a head gasket replacement job is if you break off an exhaust manifold bolt in the head. If that happens, a two-day job becomes a 3 or 4 or 5-day job. It is imperative to soak the exhaust manifold bolts with Liquid Wrench or similar, and let them sit overnight, before trying to unbolt them.

Pete Phillips

That's my biggest fear....I have a habit of braking bolts, which is why I usually steer clear of the actual engine itself! (and the water pump)

I've finally learned when to put down the air compressor tools and get the wrench out, but don't have the hands on experience to know how much is too much until it's too late.

I would ask my machinist father to help me as he has much more patience than I, but I owe him too many hours in trade as it is!

Thanks for the advice Pete!

[NTX5467]

One way to minimize the coolant "everywhere", plus some motor oil, is to completelly drain the cooling system first. That way, there can still be some residual in the heads themselves, but not like it would be if you didn't drain the coolant first.

Considering the allegedly low mileage of the car, it'd be best to do it right. Use the cooling system sealer as a diagnostic to see how bad it might be and to keep it somewhat operational. Worst case scenario would be that it leaks enough into a cylinder to "hydro-lock" the cylinder and break/bend some part of the engine's rotating mass--piston top, rod, pushrods, or even the cylinder wall. You'll not know it's happened until it's too late, as in when you try to start it and it stops . . . might break the starter housing, which would be better than the other things that could break.

You might check on some off-site storage for the car, which might end up costing about $100.00/month, or a place that is a warehouse with "open storage" where you could do the project after it cools off. That way, you'll have some time to get anything done that needs done in an unhurried manner in a somewhat secure location. Much less expensive than municipality fines!

As Bill noted, everything you might need should be in the Sears catalog. On the older stuff, just basic wrenches, sockets, extensions, handles, breakovers, and the requisite torque wrench (either the beam style or the "clicker" that many people like to use). You've got the factory service manual, so that's good.

Here's a few tips for the exterior engine bolts/nuts. Before you start to try to loosen them, take a small hammer and tap them on the end a few times. That's supposed to help break them loose easier. Everybody seems to have their best recommendation for penetrating lube. I used some to get the lower shock bolts to loosen on my '68 5467. First spraying it on, then trying to move the nut a little, then some more. The rust will tend to be somewhat porus, so it'll absorb the penetrating lube. Don't try to get in a hurry, but take it slow and easy and NO air tools. What I used was Gunk Lubricating and Penetrating Oil (some variations include Teflon).

When removing the exhaust manifold to cylinder head bolts/studs/nuts, take note of any flat washers under the bolts/nuts so that you can PUT THEM BACK when you put things back together. They are there for a reason.

Look for any nuts which would be "lock nuts". You can tell them by certain marks and their shape. I somewhat doubt you'll find any there, but there could be some on the exhaust flange studs.

As Pete noted, just loosen and tie the a/c compressor out of the way. Be SURE to get some old, soft blankets for the fender covers!!! The rubber-back vinyl ones will get dirt/grit on the backside and it will degrade the paint, as a result. Us them on top of the blankets, only.

At some auto supplies, you can get some large, flat "drain pans", with a lip around them that's only about 1/4" tall--more to catch drips than for a serious draining situation. Put this under the engine area. It'll not only catch the drips and such, but also "escaping" nuts, bolts, etc. Then you just slide the pan out to retrieve them and slide the pan back under the car.

Remember that a complex assembly, as a vehicle engine, is nothing more than a whole lot of little items which are assembled in sequence (likewise, disassembled in sequence). Very little rocket science, just lots of little "labor operations" which make the whole thing work.

Upon reinstalling the head(s), you'll then need to pay attention to the value train parts--pushrods, rocker arms, etc. It would be nice to have a place to lay everything out, in sequence, or take hi-res pictures of the disassembly process. Pushrods, sometimes, are different lengths between the intake and exhaust--not sure about this particular engine.

On the heads themselves, the normal wear areas are the valve guides and valve seats. If the compression is good and the engine runs smooth, then the seats might not need anything AT ALL. Might need to put some new valve seals in, for general principles, but use ONLY stock OEM ones rather than anything else--period.

You might need to check the head surface for flatness, just to make sure that it is not warped. Not to forget about checking it for cracks (from the possible overheat situation of times past).

As for the "fix in a can" . . . there is a Prestone product, cooling system sealer, which comes in a small plastic bottle. It looks like the fabled "liquid glass", with "sodium" something of other in the ingredient list. You can at it to a coolant solution, possibly about 1/2 bottle, then run the engine (as specified) to get it circulated around. The orig engine in my Camaro developed a seep between #5 & #7, just a small trail down the side of the block. The Prestone stuff would stop it for a good while, then it'd start again. Nothing major, usually never got to the ground, either.

Hopefully, the gaskets just deteriorated from age. Also look at the cylinder head surface to see if a "fire slot" between the adjacent cylinder has developed--hopefully not.

With all due respect, with what you've got to deal with, renting a shop/storage space might be a good thing to investigate. Many are just month-to-month, but the price can vary.

Keep us posted!

NTX5467

[old-tank]

Do a compression check and look closely at all the spark plugs, then report back. A head gasket failure is a good possibility, but a cracked head or block are others. Also look at your oil, and coolant for obvious signs of stuff that is not supposed to be there. It does sound like coolant is leaking into a combustion chamber or exhaust passages.

The only 'miracle in a can' that worked for me is K&W Block Sealer. It is messy and time consuming (2 days), but it works---got a po' boy back on the road in a 55 Special for another 150,000 miles.

Willie

[JohnD1956]

Just to let you know, I helped a mechanic do this job on my 78 Estate Wagon this past winter. Start the project right after making sure you have the gaskets. You don't want to do this in the winter. Also do both sides at the same time. You don't want to go back in to do the other side later.

While getting the gaskets soak the exhaust pipe to manifold bolts for a few days. Then hit them with a wire brush to clean off the threads.

We pulled the carb off in order to get some of the intake manifold bolts off. Then we installed long bolts with huge flat washers into the holes for the carb and that made a convenient handle for lifting and setting the intake. We also pulled off the AC and brackets and the power sterring pump and brackets and just roped then out of the way. we then put the long bolts in the bracket holes so one of us could lift from the front while the other lifted from the back.

We pulled the heads with the exhaust manifolds on. Then laid the heads on a wide board and worked on the exhaust bolts. We sprayed PB blaster and worked the bolts back and forth using a nice long breaker bar and six point socket. I pounded the head of the breaker bar and sprayed the balster while Adam worked it back and forth. On one head we broke two bolts but once the manifold was off we did this with a vice grips, and eventually all the exhaust bolts came out.

With the heads and exhaust manifolds separated I took the heads to a machine shop. They degreased them and the pressure tested them without dissassembly. They assured me I had no cracks, and they checked the surface too. I even had them drill out and replace the exhaust studs which were all broken from a previous owner. This was a few hundred dollars BUT the confidence was priceless.

It realistically took one week to be ready to put it back together. But we never worked more than three hours at a time on it because we both have day jobs. And it took three days to put it back together.

I would recommend you get your 14 yr old son out there with you to help and tell him he is earning the right to the car when he has a years or two of driving experience under his belt.

[bhclark]

I was going to ask for best practices.....but thanks to NXT and John, I just got them!

I will attempt to get the plugs pulled and do a compression check this weekend and report back.

I can tell you that after I stopped the engine, I attempted to restart it and got a click, click, click. The mechanic told me that most likely one of the cylinders had filled up with coolant and hydrolocked it to the point where it wouldn't turn over, until the next day when the coolant leaked down through the piston.

I'll report back when I have more info....

thanks guys....best website in the world! (well, after buick-59.com!)

[Guest joshandmakenzie]

Are you 100% it is a blown head gasket. the water pumps were awfull about puting water in the engine vie the timing chain cover. and if you all ready had water pump problems well!!!!!

[bhclark]

Are you 100% it is a blown head gasket. the water pumps were awfull about puting water in the engine vie the timing chain cover. and if you all ready had water pump problems well!!!!!

Mechanic said the timing chain cover looked fine? If that was the problem, wouldn't there be a hole or damage to the cover?

If not, how do I check?

[Guest joshandmakenzie]

in my case 65 wildcat with a 401 nailhead it was a pin hole and I'm talking SMALL!!!!! i could not see it i until i took it to a shop in town and had it sand blasted then holding it up to a very bright light i could then see the location of the hole. Is there a large a amount of water in the oil? aka milkshakes. if there is a large amount of water in the oil this could explain the hard start or non start. with out doing too much work to find out pull the plugs and look at them see if any have been washed down with water if so then ya probley a head gasket. If not might lean towards the timing cover.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

[JohnD1956]

When I pulled the plugs on the 78 to check, it was obvious which cylinder was involved. The plug had some anitfreeze on it. What was not so obvious was the head gasket going in the exact same location on the other head.

[buick man]

A quick note about removing bolts and especially exhaust bolts/nuts etc.

After soaking with penetrant as was previously noted, the next thing I always do is apply -HEAT! I always take my propane or benzene torch and apply heat.

Always works and that's good.

David

[Smartin]

If it was hydrolocked, it would WANT to crack over, but will sound like it doesn't have quite enough power to do so. It will not click click click. That is a sign of lack of voltage/amperage to the starter.

[JohnD1956]

Brian, just wondering if you pulled the plugs?

Edited July 23, 2010 by JohnD1956 (see edit history)