My next project? 1921 Packard Coupe.

[oldcar]

Ken/Matt

Many thanks for your help. With Ken's photograph I can see just how simple it all is. Ivan Saxton who lives about 40 miles (a nice drive through the hills in the Land Rover) from me has one that I can look at and take measurements. All I need now is some time.

Bernie J.

[Guest Silverghost]

Bernie:

Geezzze~~~

That big old air pump looks similar to the old units that the old hard-hat divers once used for under-water air !

It's a really great find !

I never saw one quite like it before !

Edited February 10, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Really Brad!

It is not that big. Dead Easy Pumps were a popular accessory in the 1920s. Surely you can remember? Anyone who was a serious tourist had one mounted on their running board. This one is a standard twin cylinder, it is just 10 inches tall. They saved a lot of gut-busting as with a normal hand pump. During the late teens and early 1920s punctures were a common occurrence. All those loose horseshoe nails lying about on the roads for a start. With split rims, "pinched' inner tubes were another frequent cause of flat tires.

Even Rolls Royce owners or probably more often than not their long suffering chauffeur had to stop to repair punctures. Lots of quality cars had engine driven tire pumps built in under the hood. A little later into the 1930s you could buy an adaptor that screwed into one spark plug hole converting that cylinder into an air pump to inflate tires. My 1936 LG45 Lagonda had one in its tool kit. Ask any old time Brass era car owner provided they (the owner) are over 95 years old.

Bernie J.

Edited February 10, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello

Attached are a couple of photographs of the brass replacement for the rusted out water side gallery.

The manufacturer assures me that the inner baffle is made exactly as original. This is designed to direct the water coming from the pump to the rear of the cylinder block. Note the in one removed from my engine this inner baffle has completely rusted away.

Bernie J.

[Friartuck]

Bernie,

What was the vendor where you purchased this water jacket? I'll probably need one in a year or so when I start working on my 3rd series.

Next question, do those holes line up to be between the cylinders or exactly at the cylinder. The logic is water between cylinders carries the heat away whereas water directed at the cylinder might create a cold spot on the cylinder wall. Given the number of holes it sort of begs the question: Shouldn't there be one extra hole close the front?. Perhaps there's enough water splashing around the front where that's not needed.

I think I answered my own question, well sort of anyway. If you use the small 1/4-20 screw holes around the water jacket's perimeter as a gauge against the side view of the engine, the four water holes line up between the cylinders towards the rear of the block. But shouldn't there be a fifth hole to push water between the first two cylinders??

Chris W.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Friartuck
Revised Question (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

The exit to the radiator is at the front,,,,and in the head,,so the water wanders around to that end,,seems to work,,,and the good part is that you can clean it out,,,wonderful patternmaker job too,,Cheers,,Ben

[oldcar]

Hello Chris

The water enters from the water pump via the slot at the front, exit holes are at the bottom and in-between the cylinder barrels to avoid cold spots on the cylinder walls. The way it is designed is to take the water to the rear of the engine so that it circulates around the entire engine passing into the cylinder head through a series of transfer holes exiting back into the radiator from the front of the head. The Chamber pressed into the plate tapers in depth towards the back ensuring even distribution. The Manufacturer of the plate is fellow Vintage Drivers Club (Aust) member David Dewar, 84 McDonald Road, Korrine, Victoria 3979, Australia. I will send you his e-mail and telephone # via p.m.

Bernie j.

Edited February 15, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Well the predictable has happened! The water pump eventually came out of the front of the block. The problem is that it came out in pieces. The base plate of the pump had really become attached to the block, virtually rusted solid. As it is it has taken several days of patient tapping, copious quantities of penetrating oil and careful application of heat. As a consequence the main body of the pump parted through the bosses that the base plate attaches to. I am sorry but anyone who has not looked at a Packard Single Six water pump will think that I am mad. Anyone who has had experience with this water pump will know exactly what I am talking about.

The question now is. 1.Is the Single six water pump used in any other Packard models? 2. Is there anyone making a reproduction casting of the water-pump body?

3 Does anyone have a second-hand water-pump available for purchase.

Please help if you can or even if you think that you may be able to.

Bernie J.

Edited February 16, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Stop the Panic!

Having cleaned up the bits and had a quiet think I believe that the water pump is a relatively simple repair. All i need to do is strip out the impeller and shaft (something I was going to do the replace the stuffing gland with a modern water seal) face off the two surfaces and make three new "spacers" using some brass bar. To make a job worthy of a Packard these probably will be spigotted into the two faces and through bolted with some stainless bolts. It should then survive for another 80 years. Where I broke a couple of little segments out of the outer flange can be built up with some bronze and then machined flat. Presto a fully rebuilt water pump with the added benefit that these new components will not rust.

Bernie J.

[Friartuck]

Bernie,

Thanks for the lead on the brass water jacket. Regarding the water pump, I would like to see what you propose for a modern water seal. I tried using a modern seal for a vintage water pump and I find myself having to go back to the regular stuffing gland material. Fortunately there is only the water pump & fan on that belt/pulley, so the bushing and seal aren't that stressed. May I also suggest using an arc welding rod specially made for cast iron instead of building up with bronze....Muggy Weld in Washington state here in the USA has photos and videos on repairing cast iron and specific article (photos) on a cast iron water pump. The resultant welds machine well.

Muggy Weld, LLC Specialty Alloys and Electrodes

Chris W.

[KenHupp20]

Would love to see some photos of the water pump project. Sounds like something we can all learn from .

Thanks , Ken

[oldcar]

Hello Ken

I am sorry but you will have to wait a little longer for Photographs. So that you can appreciate the problems, attached is a drawing with proposed modifications very kindly supplied by PAC Australia, membership secretary David McCredie.

The green "worms" show approximately where the original three cast iron "legs" had fractured. The plan is to machine the broken stubs off flush and to replace them with brass tube"spacers" located by stainless 1/4nf through bolts that will hold the water inlet end of the pump in place.

Bernie J.

Edited February 18, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Here is a question for all the Packardians out there. I have seen this fitting in the engine photographs of several 1920s Packards. Can someone please explain its purpose, There is no evidence that my 1923 car has ever had anything mounted on the bulkhead in this position next to the vacuum tank. What does it do and how does it work????

Bernie J.

[Friartuck]

Bernie, I do not have this bracket on my early (June 1925) 3rd Series six Runabout. The only thing next to the vaccuum tank is the roundish cover and conduit for electric leads from behind the dash through the firewall and down to the chassis frame.

Chris

[oldcar]

Hi Chris

That is the same as my car although I am missing the cover for the electrical junction box.

I have the one on the inside and may have to make another if no one has a spare.

I have just received the pack of engine gaskets from Olsens, great service and extemely comprehensive.

I am off this morning to look at progress on the body.

Bernie J.

[W_Higgins]

Having once removed a water pump from a '23 Single Six I can sympathize with what happened. I was lucky that it came out in one piece, but it could have just as easily gone sour. It was A LOT of effort to work it free and explained why the fan belt was so neglected. Be careful reinstalling the clamp ring. On this particular car an ear was broken from it being over-torqued sometime in the past. It doesn't take much to keep the pump from rotating.

Be sure and do your research if you fit a modern seal to the pump. The first Model A pumps they did that with about 15 years ago using neoprene seals would wear a groove in the stainless shaft after about 2,000 miles. Incompatible material issue. Personally, I think they're good to go with packing once you have a new shaft. Packing gets a bad rap from it being chewed up by rough surfaces.

Below is a photo of the water jacket I remade using the original for a pattern. It was only a four-hole, too:

[oldcar]

Hello Walter

It is always nice to hear from another Packard owner especially one who has rebuilt a Single Six. Going on David McC's experience with his water-pump seal I think that I will go down the same path.

Having has a quick look in Olsen's package of gaskets I was relieved to see that it included the copper ring for the waterpump to block joint. It really looks to be a very comprehensive set.

Meanwhile I have just returned from Sleeping Classics where my friend AAron has made a start on the panel repairs. So far he has made two new inner rear fender panels and repaired the cracks and dents in the rear of the tail section. He has also made new edges for the arch over the rear fenders. These edges were in a bad way very many little cracks and some severe corrosion where the aluminium is sandwiched between the timber frame and the steel fender.

Bernie J.

Edited February 22, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Walter,

Re your comments about the water pump seal. I agree that the old packed gland works fine with the correct packing, just leaks a little. I used that for a while on my 126 then I tried a neoprene lip seal that seals on the shaft, it worked OK for a while but it is not a good solution. The seal that I am using now and the one I believe Bernie plans to use is a mechanical seal. It is a ceramic type face seal, it has mating spring loaded seal faces, It does not seal on the shaft. It is shown on the drawing but is probably too small to see. These are used widely in industry for pump seals. With this type of seal it would be possible to pressurise the cooling system if used with a modern core and cap. This would reduce the problem of overheating (which is a problem in Australia in hot weather) by increasing the pressure which raises the boiling point of the coolant. I haven't tried this.

David McCredie

[W_Higgins]

Hi Bernie and Dave. Very interesting. I'm going to have to go back and read more of the older posts, only having picked up the last few pages. I didn't see specifically what kind of seal it was and can't say I've seen a ceramic in a refit such as this. You've got my curiosity going.

All I can say for the '23 I've worked on is that I'm its maintainer, not owner, and I haven't had the opportunity to do a full rebuild on it. It's neat reading about others who have come across the same troubles. You've got me worried about that center main cap thing now....

So, I'm watching the rest with great interest and taking notes. Looks like you're really going all the way. Turns out that I got a call today for someone else wanting to bring in their '23 Single Six to resolve runability issues encountered after doing a valve job and installing a new cam last year. If I find anything peculiar that might bite someone else I'll report it, if that's alright. For the moment I'm suspecting it's just some sort of reassembly error.

[oldcar]

Hello Walter

As people in your country are want to say "Your Welcome". Re; this going all the way thing. I seem to have this bad habit that in taking on orphans and basket cases. You just can't do a quick "fix-up" or at least not the way I see things, I want to be able to drive my cars.

I am sure that David sees things the same way. It is a problem that we Aussies have to live with.

Bernie J.

As an example just last Saturday night we (my wife & I, both over 70 y-o) drove our 1934 Lagonda Rapier sports two seater in a competitive navigation event over about 200 miles, in the dark, on narrow hill country roads. We enjoyed every minute. Finally got to bed about 3.00am.

Edited February 23, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[W_Higgins]

You just can't do a quick "fix-up" or at least not the way I see things, I want to be able to drive my cars.

I agree. Just fixing problems as they come without going over the whole car is setting-up one's self for sitting around and waiting for the next problem to rear its ugly head. When cars get this old, unseen problems have a way of lurking beneath the surface.

[Larry Schramm]

Bernie,

You are my type of guy. Out driving around till 3:00 in the morning with the wife. What great fun.

Larry

[oldcar]

Hi Folks

Just a quick one. Just because I have not made any new posts on this thread does not mean that I an not doing anything, quite on the contrary. The motor is now totally dismantled to reveal all sorts of problems. Perhaps someone can suggest how anyone can manage to BEND big-end bolts? Not to mention the up-side-down main bearing castle-nuts. The repairs to the cracked centre main bearing cap were just the start.

Not even the village black-smith..........

Bernie J.

Edited February 28, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

Hi Bernie,,,I have an idea on the center main,, This is the only part of the shaft where the two ajacent throws are in line to make the max off balence,at speed,,,The 12 had center main problems as well,,

Looking back,,I think it would be advisable to check the center main on all these old cars

The only two engines that do not have this are the 8a Isotta,,and the 1924Packard 1st series 8

,,,I was told of the Packard,,,but altho I own one,,I have never had the pan down to look,,

Hope all is well,,,Cheers,,Ben

[oldcar]

Hi Ben

An old fella like you should know it is not a good idea to look in the pan......

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

A question for all the judging experts. I have finally managed to find time to clean up the oil pan and clutch housing. Originally they would have been very much as they had left the foundry with only basic grinding off any surplus from the edges etc. and surfacing grinding the matching faces where they bolt up to the crankcase etc. In cleaning up the exterior I have ground the sides and the bottom smooth and ask firstly If I will lose points as the finish is no longer factory original. Should I now polish then to a smooth gloss but not mirror finish. Leave them matt finish or start looking for another oil pan etc. As they came off the car the oil pan had baked on a mixture of clay and oil that over the last 80 years had taken on the qualities of terracotta. The only way to remove most of this bricklike material was with a 2 in chisel and a hammer. This inevitably left some scratching on the surface. Which way should I proceed Polish or leave matt and slightly scratched?

[MCHinson]

Bernie, I would suggest that you can use your own judgment as to what you feel best represents the original intent of the manufacturer. You could leave it a little rough, or you could make it a very finely finished part. I would contend that either would be "over-restoration" for which no points are deducted.

Here is the text from the judging guidelines:

"There shall be no penalty or premium for over-restoration. Over-restoration and nonauthentic

restoration are not the same. Paint with a finer finish and higher gloss than original paint would be considered over-restoration. Chrome plating or varnishing a part which was originally painted would be considered non-authentic restoration, and the vehicle would receive the appropriate point deduction on the judging form."

[oldcar]

Thank you Matthew

Right now I am basically cleaning up parts while I am waiting on my engine man to decide how he is going to spend all my money.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

Hiya all

I have been having some discussion with cben09 about the Series 1 Single Six cam followers/valve lifters. Later engines used a roller rocker while the Series 1 used a plain forged cam follower. Yesterday I spent the day cleaning these up and dressing the surfaces on an oil stone. I finished off the afternoon cleaning up the "rocker boxes".

Bernie J

[Friartuck]

Bernie,

FYI, the oil pan on my 3rd series six is natural aluminum with brass nuts.

Chris

[oldcar]

Hi Chris

Re the brass nuts are they plain nuts or acorn/dome? Also on the subject of nuts have you used nickel acorn/dome nuts on your cylinder head and on the studs to hold the block down onto the crankcase or plain nuts? I note on a lot of restored engines they seem to use Acorn/dome nuts but the original one on my engine are plain steel nuts.

Bernie J

[Bill Boudway]

Hi Bernie,

These should be the Packard type acorn nuts. A few years ago I was able to purchase a set in stainless steel from the Gilmore Museum in Kalamazoo, Michigan. These will polish up to look almost like the correct nickel plate finish. Please don't tell this to any nit-picking judge. Be sure to check the thread measurement. It will probably be 1/2" X 18.

[oldcar]

Thanks for the info Bill

The Restoration Supply Co list "Packard" Dome (chrome on steel) nuts in their catalogue. For Twin Six, 1/2 inch-20 and for Eights 7/16 inch-20 They offer eight different variations in the shape of the acorn/dome. Alternatively my local "Cost-less Bolts" have Stainless NF Dome nuts in a variety of sizes but with just the common or garden variety acorn/dome. If you really are concerned about the judges i am told that you can nickel plate on Stainless.

Bernie J.

[Friartuck]

Bernie,

The oil pan nuts are plain brass, longer than normal, perhaps 3/8-1/2 inch long with lock washers. The length of the nut is long enough to conceal the threads of the stud. Makes sense given the amount of debris the oil pan was likely to experience and don't want to damage the stud's threads.

I disagree with Bill Boudway's advice on the block and cylinder head nuts. Block to crankcase nuts are always regular nuts with lock washers. They can be either nickel plated or polished stainless. The cylinder head nuts for these early series Packards use regular nuts which can also be either nickel plated or polished stainless with flat washers, not acorn. Packard did not use acorn nuts on cylinder heads till least 4th series, and possibly 5th series. This is clearly shown in the owners manual, parts listing, and several original surviving Packards. I also confirmed this with the late Packard restorer Jimmy Tuschinsky (New Jersey) when I pulled my cylinder head to change the head gasket and he warned me about not using acorns. Using acorns would be an example of non-authentic restoration, as cited by Matt Hinson above.

Chris W.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Friartuck (see edit history)

[Guest 1928Packard526]

Bernie —

I think Chris W. has it right on the use of plain nuts on the cylinder and crankcase. At least there is no evidence to the contrary on my 6cyl. 5th series car. The nuts used on the head and crankcase were/are of the plain variety. My car was mechanically very original when I acquired it those many years ago, (very neglected, but complete), and I believe I was the first to really expose its "innards". No acorns were in evidence then. All the nut type fasteners were of the plain variety. I replaced what I could with stainless, but left it at that. The photo I posted of my engine in message #71 of this thread illustrates that. Using plain nuts saves a few pennies as well. :-)

Pete P.

[oldcar]

Hi Chris & Pete

Many thanks for your input.

It will be some time before I start assembling my engine but I will be going down the plain nut path. That is what the factory used in the first place although I may use polished stainless for appearance sake. At the $5.25 per nut that the RSC were quoting for the "Packard" dome nuts in their #28b catalogue (my copy is probably 2 years old) for "the Right Stuff" it will give my bank balance a slight reprieve.

Regards to both

Bernie J

[Bill Boudway]

Hi,

I stand corrected on the cyl head nuts.

I was assuming they were the same as for our Twin Six.

Acorn nuts pose a problem if you remove material from the head or block.

It's possible to bottom out the nut and not apply sufficient clamping force to the head gasket. We found out the disastrous results from this with our friend's '31 Lincoln. We should have used thicker washers. Leaky gasket and a serious problem with Evans coolant in the cylinders and crankcase.

PS: Isn't it bedtime Down Under?

[Ozstatman]

Now, as I type, 8:51am Monday morning.

[Guest cben09]

Just a detail from above,,,I would NOT use a lockwasher under the cylender base nuts,,thick flatwasher only ..Cheers,,Ben

[Bill Boudway]

Hi,and good morning,

Amen to Coburn's suggestion.

There's a good manual for the Packard Single Six on eBay now. Here's the link:

Packard 6 Parts Book 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 - eBay (item 160508381538 end time Mar-18-11 17:11:58 PDT)