Barrett Jackson

[38Buick 80C]

OK BCA Forum,

Has the Barret Jackson autctions on TV helped or hurt the hobby?

Your opinions....

[JohnD1956]

IMHO, Barrett Jackson has not hurt the old car hobby, because what's going on there is a profession. People hurt the hobby by believing there is a rich butt for every old car seat.

[Guest my3buicks]

I think it has hurt the hobby - non-hobbiests that have cars watch shows like this and see the auction results and immediately think their car is worth the money that BJ get's for the cars. Let's face it, most of those people lose thousands of dollars off the value the minute the hammer drops, they could never get what they just paid for the car on the general market.

It's a horse and pony show. But tons of fun to watch

[JZRIV]

I think it helps from the standpoint of publicizing the antique/classic car enthusiasm hobby. Events like that help keep the hobby alive. The more alive it is the more compainies are willing to invest money in reproduction parts which helps all of us.

Although many of the cars that go through BJ are at the high end of condition and collectibility, there is a trickle down effect to average cars as far an raising interest on certain models. I think ebay is more of a value indicator on average cars vs anything else. As a buyer on ebay, you don't have to pay a $500 right to bid fee nor the killer auction fee.

While BJ has some effect on cars that are high end collectibility like a documented 70 Buick GSX or a Shelby GT500 Mustang, I don't think it has much influence on the average collectible car. I saw a beautiful 67 Buick Electra convertible go for a VERY reasonable price. The same as what I'd expect it to sell for on ebay or by nationally advertising it.

No matter what I have been watching on TV the past few days I'm always flipping back to BJ.

[Reatta Man]

There is a case to be made for and against the collection of old cars, based upon what we see at B-J and other auctions.

The good: Probably more old cars will be closely scrutinized before being sent to the junkyard or the crusher. We've all heard about a GS or Riv sent to the crusher, with all the glass and body panels intact. Maybe that will slow down somewhat. Even if that special car is left in the field and not restored, that is better than crushing and loosing those unique parts forever.

The bad: People with 'throwaway' money will keep the ultra-desirable cars out of the reach of 99% of the population. And, those ridiculous prices will keep telling the uninformed that their 40-year-old 4-door sedan that it is worth ridiculous money, also keeping it out of the reach of most of us. For example, there was a near-perfect 4-door Electra here in Texas up on ebay a few days ago; DURING the auction, the seller raised the minimum starting bid from $3000 to $6000. Result? No bids. I was thinking of jumping in at $3000, but at $6000, I had no problem walking away.

The bottom line is, as long as people treat Barrett-Jackson as pure entertainment, it is great. But as a documentary, it is about as useful as watching an old western movie, where the good guys somehow manage to get 10-12 shots out of a six-shooter. In other words, pure fun but pure fiction....

Joe

[Guest sintid58]

I personally don't think that the old car hobby needs the kind of publicity that BJ gives it. Since BJ has really gotten popular people get stupid about the value of their cars because they saw one just like it on BJ (Just like it but the one on BJ was a 2 dr hardtop and theirs is a 4 door sedan, oh and the one on BJ had a 396 and theirs is a 250 6 but other than that it is just like the one on TV that brought $75,000). Another thing I see since BJ got popular is dealers popping up all over that snap up any reasonably priced cars then jacking the price to ridiculous levels to sell to people who watch BJ that think they are making an investment not buying into a hobby. If BJ has done anything it has made the starter car for young people unobtainable because of the high cost to get into the hobby. By looking at the numbers at the BCA it surely hasn't done us any good. I can't even watch BJ because of the clowns bidding preening for the camera and playing the I have more money than you game. It is not a real auctions but a show floor for millionaires to show off how much money they can throw at something they will probably put in a garage and never look at again, only to be pulled out by their heirs rusting and dirty from years of neglect.

[Guest wildcat465]

I think the BJ auction has become it's own hobby.

There are those who enjoy watching, or bidding, or just having long discussions about what happened there. That right there, is a hobby.

I like watching BJ and frankly would like to be there some year, because I like looking at cars. The examples in Scottsdale every year are truely fabulous.

As far as the old car hobby goes, we may want to understand that BJ is it's own world, which most of us do not belong to. Those cars getting the insane money are the best of the best, many could not be duplicated for the money they are sold for. The people paying this kind of money are not often encountered in what we call events. Many paying that money for cars at BJ do not really care about "the hobby" and are not even enthusiasts. They are there because their similarly large pocketbook "friends" are there and the willingness to spend big bucks on a car that will most likely sit in a warehouse until next years auction is their own sport (hobby). Check out how many cars are at these auctions year after year.

You really don't think Chevy made THAT many 435HP '67 Vette's do you? Yep, same cars just traveling around.

The guy who now thinks his old car is worth huge money because of what he saw at BJ, is not really a member of what we call the old car hobby. he is a speculator, that's another hobby. If his car is priced too high, it will not sell.

Unless another speculator comes along...

[jscheib]

Perhaps it is that I only saw brief segments of the auction via the internet, as I refuse to pay the extra charge for Speedvision as it is a package here wity all the smaller sports channels.

Anyway, during my infrequent viewing, most of what I saw was newly built customs of 50-60's cars. While they are nice, I doubt they will ever make the Woodward Cruse or other mostly Hot-Rod/Customs shows and be driven.

John

[Thriller]

I think the biggest impact is that it has inflated expectations of value to the point that sellers have unrealistic expectations of the value of their cars. They are high level cars, but the market still fluctuates - last night I caught one of the Apollo White GSXs and the auctioneer kept interjecting that it was easily a $250k car and was struggling to try to get bids to $100k. The auctioneers are almost seeming to set the value of the car, rather than the market. The other thing is that there is such a range. I'd hate to pay $500 for a bidders card plus 10% buyer's fee on the '70 Electra that sold for a $5500 bid - the fees add about 15% to what would otherwise be a great deal.

It is a spectacle - there's a local that goes down every other year and I think the bidder fee covers a guest, so there are two of them that attend, driving down the cost to attend. It is a form of entertainment. There is another auction in the area around the same time that is better suited to the hobbyist crowd.

Now, if these are significantly impacting the price guides, and inflating prices, I'd think it has a detrimental impact. I've been disappointed looking at cars that weren't what I would have expected for x dollars.

I like the raising of awareness, but there's a lot of the "special" or charity cars, customs, and so on that potentially confuse the casual observer.

[Guest GRANNYS70SKYLARK]

I've been there, it's a fantastic experience and it put the value of my cars in perspective. Just a bunch of regular folk with tons of money to spend, some with more money than brains at times.

[NTX5467]

The BJ Auctions are always interesting to watch. They can even be a reasonably good education for many, regarding what's what or whatever. Craig Jackson used to do a segment on "Car Crazy" on various vehicles and what the buyer should look for. To me, a much better diversion than watching CNN (or similar), but just as entertaining as old "I Love Lucy" reruns.

It's highly obvious that each of the vehicles at a BJ auction are the total top 1% of vehicles in the hobby. In some cases, many unique vehicles are seen that might we might never see other than in pictures. If a bidding war might break out, the excitement level can increase greatly. This weekend, several "charity cars" were in the coverage, which is great for everybody--no sellers or buyer's fee.

Yet, for the cars to get to BJ, they must be highly-restored and probably over-restored so they'll show well under the lights. Correct, but over-restored. Having "documentation" seems to be a big issue, too, more in some cases than others.

I concur on the entertainment aspect, rather than what many might perceive as a valid price gauge. I believe than many arm-chair enthusiasts even recognize this. It looks like a "really big shew" for vehicles which I might want to attend one day . . . but not anytime soon. Even if I bought a vehicle with a BJ pedigree, I'd be just as suspicious of it as any other used/restored vehicle I might be interested in, with all due respect.

Considering the stratospheric prices that some vehicles bring, I suspect it would be BOTH hard to build the vehicle for that money and get that same price a year later (except in a very few cases) at another BJ auction.

In one respect, I believe the BJ is diluting their "brand" with too many auctions. Some have better results than others, yet I'd consider the Scottsdale "flagship" location as the best one.

Watch and enjoy!

NTX5467

[LINC400]

I'd say that it has done some good as far as getting the old car hobby some attention it wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Some people just think old cars all old and worthless junk. Seeing them go for mega bucks on TV might change some of their thinking.

On the other hand, these are not people that are really needed in the old car hobby. Maybe it will keep them from crushing that old car, but now they will be trying to sell it on Ebay for 3-10 times what it is worth because "they saw one similar go for that at BJ" Except that car was in mint condition, had the rare engine, rare options, and was a convertible. Theirs is a 4 door sedan with bottom of the line engine, no options, and needs work. Possibly it's even an entirely different year and model as well. These cars will probably end up rotting away because no will pay that, and no one is going to convince them it isn't worth that.

I have also seen an increase in reasonably priced cars being snapped up at auctions, online classifieds, or on Ebay, and then relisted for twice the price. Really if the 1965 X sold 3 weeks ago with them as high bidder, what makes them think it is going to sell for double now on the same site? Anyone one that wanted it could have gotten it for half that price 3 weeks ago. But they keep relisting them. The annoying part is that sometimes more idiot speculators pay double and then relist for triple.

As far as BJ offering only the cream of the crop ultra rare cars, that is not true either. I have been there once in person. While the over-restored, fuel injected '57 Corvette convertible will get lots of coverage, they don't even bother showing the '74 New Yorker in olive green that needs a few things. It will not make sensational TV.

[poci1957]

I was glad to see a few positive comments about the extra exposure maybe saving a few old cars from the crusher, that made me feel a little better about what this event has done for the hobby.

I am torn about the Barrett-Jackson effect on the hobby every year. I can tell you that in the midwest it is FAR more famous than Hershey, which now is little known by average old car fans here. I am dismayed at the number of armchair experts the show seems to create, and the common thread is they all just want to talk about the money. Then what happens is:

To some, every old beater becomes a valuable retirement account. When they cannot sell it for all the money they are disappointed, and the potential new owner/preserver is disappointed and/or just does not get a hobby car of their own.

This potential fledgeling hobbyist, especially a youth, is affected in that they think everyone in the car hobby is a rich old guy and they cannot possibly compete with them for cars, so why bother? OR they think that even if they can afford AN old car, they will never get respect at a show if it is not a Shelby or Hemi Cuda, so why bother?

If they listen to the announcers they will learn that (and I quote) "the $100,000 plus car is now the norm". It just makes people think that it is all about money and no one who is not a millionaire need apply.

[Guest Estate Wagon man]

What upsets me about BJ and Speedvision is first off, unless its a car they like they cut to a commercial. Second, the comments that they make about some of the older and bigger cars or the 50's,60's,70's and 80's cars is offensive and just out and out "RUDE". I have emailed SpeedVision on several occassions for the comments to be kept to facts not personal tastes. As for most of them ,they are OVER restored, incorrectly restored or restored to a level only that of something you would find coming out of the "HOOD" or Tijuana. Resto-mods in my opnion are not classics but STUPID and should be at their own auction. What really gets me angry is that BJ has made car collecting rediculious, because they say car under 100k car is just a driver. "Its not perfect so drive it and not worry". Lastly, Chevy's, the "POOR mans car" is now becoming more valuable than a Cadillac or Buick or Pontiac or Old or a FORD. Give me a break. The only reason they love these cars and are willing to spend STUPID amounts of money on them are because they grew up in a poor family surrounding and that's what they remember, so now that they are old enough and have extra money, so they don't think twice about buying a Chevy for 305k when it was only 4k new. Give me a break, its a total joke. These guys clear about 15 million each after all is said and done. The Speedvision and BJ should show all cars going through the block not just the ones they like or want too promote. For my final thoughts on BJ and the other auctions. How can anyone think the late 60's and early 70's UGLY Chrysler cars, which didnt sell many new, (just for that reason), can bring more than a car that is a form of art? The show irritates me beyone belief. One last comment notice, unless you are there on a Sat. the car will not bring the money. On any other day the exact same car will bring about 50-60% less than on Sat., and as my friend who is more famous and more wealthy than all of these guys put together said, all these people who are on the TV want is for their friends and the world to see them on TV throwing away stupid amounts of money out of cars that are sickening, when there are people in the world who are starving to death. To me collecting cars are about beauty and style and COLOR and options. When I see a bare bone UGLY Chevy (and not all Chevy's were ugly, just most) sell for more than a 58 Limited convertible then I get all twisted up angry. I think 4dr cars can be as beautiful as a 2dr car or sometimes better looking than a convertible. Just my opnion, just the auction people have created a total monster which is out of control and unrealistic to the real world and for those who take car collecting seriously. Did you guys see that woman on the front row, she had a check list of what she like, no thought as to what they were or anything, she would spend 300k on a car and the next car would be the same and would sell for 50k. I can almost bet she only wants too impress friends and knows nothing about the cars she is buying. Maybe all she wants is to find a Pebble Beach car so she can up here social standings and show off when is there. URGH, it gets me all hot. Listen I know Jay Leno and have seen his collection many times and its not my taste but he has a real passion for cars and he even admits that sometimes he gets wrapped up in it and overpays for something he wished he hadnt bought in the first place. Just my thoughts and a few opinions from some of my friends.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Estate Wagon man (see edit history)

[stealthbob]

What I don't get is all the cars that sell for far less than what it cost to build?

I forget which one but there a car that was touted to have receipts for over 600k in build costs yet it was sold for around 200k...and was expected to sell for that?????

I don't know many people who just give away money....especially the rich ones.

So over hyped or under sold?

There were many examples of this (not as extreme mind you) that kept crossing the auction block...made me keep asking myself:

Were are all these magnanimous car guys that "just do it for the love of the hobby" and not "the money"?

Surely theses two concepts go somewhat hand in hand when we are talking this kind of high dollar amount.

To be honest...I was just pissed because the ONE car I wanted to see go across my screen was the 54 Roadmaster Lot 705.1.

The Speed coverage started the very next car.......

[poci1957]

Good questions, I have also noticed these shortfalls commonly stated by the announcers.

When I was in a restoration shop 20 years ago we did the basic math that it took 2000 hours to perform a full restoration and at that time we were charging about $50 an hour. Thus $100,000 for 2000 hours of work, PLUS the cost of parts, chrome, paint, upholstery, which have gone up considerably since then. So I fully accept that a car under $100,000 is a financial loss IF the owner paid for labor for a (quality) full professional restoration.

But the question is, have all these cars had such a restoration effort? How many have had corners cut to turn a quick buck, OR how many had owners capable of performing some work themselves (a quaint concept, I know). The swap meets and auctions I have attended usually have cars meeting these standards; a combination of cleaned up original components and/or some owner restoration. But on TV you cannot tell. More of the TV auction hype in action, I guess.

[NTX5467]

I looked at the website and the auction results. I had not realized how many Mustangs, Corvettes, and customized vehicles were in the total lot! For those "popular" cars, they were usually the over-restored cars in the right colors and with impecable documentation which got the larger sale amounts (and "glory"). The customs, well, they bring whatever somebody's willing to pay for them at that point in time--many WERE cheaper to buy that build, though.

I don't know what mid-60s Lincoln convertibles are going for, but those two looked to be about right. The unrestored, low mileage, one repaint Buick Electra 225s were very "high value". I seem to recall a few Buicks that did bring large amounts, but nothing like the 6-figure Corvettes and such.

I concur, the bidders typically are not "typical car enthusiasts" . . . especially when one buyer couple bought 29 cars in Scottsdale. Still, some are genuine enthusiasts and experts on the vehicles they've built or purchased (as Amos Minter and early T-birds) and that's great.

Although there might be some hype at BJ, it's not nearly as much as the written descriptions I have seen on eBay. FAR more "rare cars" on eBay, it seems! At least at BJ, you know they are.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Reatta Man]

Probably the best gauge of BJ being more infotainment than real-world information is that I don't think these ridiculous prices influence Hemmings' prices. They are just too ridiculous to include in virtually any data base.

Of course, some could just as easily go off on Hemmings, but I think the biggest problem with Hemmings' prices is that a LOT of people think their car is a #1, when it is a weak #2 or strong #3 at best.

Another good indication would be whether anyone in their right mind try to use BJ prices when determining how much agreed-value insurance they are going to put on THEIR car. Sure, a Boss 429 Mustang brough a quarter of a million dollars; are you really going to pony up the premium to cover your own Boss Mustang for that much money? Doubt it.....

Joe

[poci1957]

Of course, some could just as easily go off on Hemmings, but I think the biggest problem with Hemmings' prices is that a LOT of people think their car is a #1, when it is a weak #2 or strong #3 at best.

Joe

This is the biggest single problem in price misunderstanding. In both the old car world and the retail dealer world the price guides always caution to beware of over classifying.

[Guest minddoctor]

HI BARRETT JACKSON AND MECUM TO NAME A FEW I BELIEVE HELP THE CAR HOBBY BY SETTING A BENCHMARK AT THE HIGH POINT OF WHAT SOMEINE MIGHT GET FOR THEIR VEHICLE. IF YOU USE IT AS A GUIDE INSTEAD OF FEELING IT WILL INFLATE THE PRICE STRUCTURE THAN YOU WILL COME TO APPRECIATE WHAT THEY DO. I HAVE BEEN TO BOTH AND HAVE HAD OVER 680 VEHICLES OVER 40 YEARS AND I TRULY HAVE NOT MET THE SELLER WHO WILL TRY TO SELL ME A VEHICLE BASED ON WHAT HE SAW IT SELL FOR AT "ONE OF THOSE TV AUCTIONS" TO COIN A PHRASE. IT IS MENTIONED SOMETIMES BUT THE SELLERS I HAVE DEALT WITH OVERALL COME BACK TO EARTH ON THEIR PRICES WHEN THE AUCTION SALES ARE DISCUSSED AS A WOW DID YOU SEE WHAT MY SAME CAR SOLD FOR SORT OF DIALOGUE.

WELL I THOUGHT I WOULD ADD MY 2 CENTS WORTH BASED ON MY DEALING WITH AUCTIONS AND THE PRICES THEY PORTRAY. THANKS

[g_k50]

I don't think that there's anything wrong with people building cars to sell at BJ.

Finding a car to build is possible, building a car to sell at BJ is possible, but unless you do it for a living it's hard to justify or to make money. Even those people doing it for a living sometimes don't get their price and lose money or have to take the car back to the shop.

Cars to build are out there, just yesterday 4-1-10 I saw a Mercedes Benz 1978 450SL sell for $800 at an auction. Now they had to tow the car to the arena and it was is rough shape but most of the parts were there and it wasn't a rust bucket. I didn't buy it, too much to work on already.