GM

[jonlabree]

GM finally steps to the plate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jHFT1X1JDI

Take a look.

[JalopyBob]

So how soon after this HyWire hits the streets, will we see the Reatta body on one?

[padgett]

Well, that was done in 2006...

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Actually GM had a deal with congress earlier than 2003, because while I was on Ft. Belvior VA in 2003 I spoke with the team working on the US team. They had three running and driving at that time. I did con a ride out of one of them. I also got the low down on why the team or atleast one of the engineers did not think the cars would make it to market.

One the hydrogen conversion used platinum, and we all know how scarce and expensive that is. Two, the cheapest and most abundant way to get hydrogen is to burn natural gas. So it would make more sense to just use the gas as fuel.

Now if they can overcome these may be we will see them in mass production.

[padgett]

Propane power is common for forklifts in factories because it it non-polluting. Oil rigs are also often NG powered because it is free. Just our entire infrastructure is geared around dino offal.

[Guest mounthopewalt]

I don't know about the US, but many taxis and airport limos in Toronto have been modified to run on natural gas or propane.

There are residential pockets of natural gas around Lake Erie shoreline where people have tapped into on their property and are heating their homes for free.

[Guest Telco]

"There are residential pockets of natural gas around Lake Erie shoreline where people have tapped into on their property and are heating their homes for free."

Hijack time - How would you go about doing that?

[Guest mounthopewalt]

Telco,

I would take the soft approach first, and call a listing agent. But if that doesn't work....................... (LOL)

[Guest Telco]

Heh heh... actually was wondering if you might know how they were actually doing the gas tapping. There's a lot of natural gas in Oklahoma, and I happen to have my mineral rights and have no signed contracts with anyone to develop it. I sure wouldn't mind dropping a pipe in the ground if it isn't too hard to do so.

[sfair]

Propane power is common for forklifts in factories because it it non-polluting. .

EPA has declared carbon dioxide a pollutant.

The EPA lumped carbon dioxide with five other gases -- methane, nitrous oxide, hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons and sulfur hexafluoride -- into a single class for regulatory purposes.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

So the government won't tax us for the air we breathe, just the CO2 we exhale? Sweet

[RonHeberle]

I wondered what happened to there hydrogen effort that is incredible. I never saw that before thanks for sharing.

[Guest mounthopewalt]

"Heh heh... actually was wondering if you might know how they were actually doing the gas tapping. There's a lot of natural gas in Oklahoma, and I happen to have my mineral rights and have no signed contracts with anyone to develop it. I sure wouldn't mind dropping a pipe in the ground if it isn't too hard to do so.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> "

Telco, it's quite simple. Check out this DIY video:

The narrator reminds me of Bernie Madoff. I heard he was selling natural gas futures in prison. LOL

[handmedownreatta]

gm had an excellent electric car in the eighties called the ev1 before the oil companies bought them out.right now it costs 100,000 dollars to build a hydrogen cell car.if gm had stayed with electric cars they would be perfected by now.and don't mention the 'volt'which they have been talking about five years and still only goes 40 miles before its time to crank up the engine.bring back the ev1....

[D-a-n-i-e-l]

Any one look into the Tesla? Personally I am going to build my own electric. Either one of my Rx7's or a metro. 80 mile for the metro between charges and kits are readily available.

[handmedownreatta]

im aware of the tesla and would love to have one if i had that kind of money.

[Guest Richard D]

gm had an excellent electric car in the eighties called the ev1 before the oil companies bought them out.right now it costs 100,000 dollars to build a hydrogen cell car.if gm had stayed with electric cars they would be perfected by now.and don't mention the 'volt'which they have been talking about five years and still only goes 40 miles before its time to crank up the engine.bring back the ev1....

Actually the EV-1 was built in the Reatta Craft Centre after Reatta went to the parking lot in the sky. From what I read to control cost they used conventional lead acid batteries. I wonder if any EV-1's evaded the crusher and could be equipped with the same type cells the Tesla uses. Much less weight and double/triple the range?

Just a thought,

Richard

[Guest steveskyhawk]

I have seen 2 EV1s in the last year. One was at the Neathercutt Museum and the other at the Peterson Museum both of which are in Los Angeles.

[Guest Telco]

Battery tech is just not where it needs to be to go 100 percent electric, nor is the infrastructure in place for electric cars. California, the state most like to be first, has so little excess capacity that they have rolling brownouts even without Enron's help. Imagine them adding a million electric cars to the load. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that everyone would plug in at night, or that the generators will be able to run flat out 24 hours a day. If Cali added one million all electrics to their infrastructure it would collapse within a few months.

Nor is the manufacturer's current plan of building parallel hybrids the way to go. All they are doing is adding an electric motor (EM) to the transmission that adds a little help to the current ICE, then making the internal combustion engine (ICE) a little bit smaller. You can tell by the mileage that it's not worth the effort, they are only getting 10MPG improvements out of the cars.

No, the way to go is the series hybrid. The series hybrid uses an ICE to drive only a generator head, there is no mechanical connection between the ICE and the tires.

The reason this is the best way to go is because in a conventional or conventional hybrid, the ICE must be sized to move the car from a dead stop, and be able to accelerate when at speed. This requires a large engine. During cruising, 90 percent of the engine is going to waste as the average car only needs about 20HP to maintain highway speeds. According to EFI Live, my wife's Silverado maintains 80MPH on about 27HP with a 300HP engine.

A generator head, on the other hand, needs a constant RPM. Generator heads don't like fluxuating RPMs, and most generator heads (in the US) are designed to run off either 1800 or 3600RPM. Since you know what the optimal RPM your generator head needs, you can also find out how much torque is required to maintain that RPM at maximum load. Once you know this, you can size the ICE to provide that amount of torque. You can optimize the ICE to provide the correct amount of torque at its most efficient speed, and provide that power via gearing to the gen head at its optimal RPM. Since you never need more than this RPM, the ICE can be made much, much smaller than a conventional car needs.

The problem with the genset, however, is it does not handle changing loads well. When you accelerate it takes the genset time to ramp back up, and when you slow down it takes time to slow back down. The fix for this is a battery pack. Since the car has a genset available to it, you don't need a giant battery pack to run the car. In fact, the battery pack only needs to be able to provide a couple three miles of electric-only range. This would be large enough to allow the car to accelerate and decelerate with no problems, while allowing the genset enough of a buffer to be able to adjust.

If you don't try to run for miles on electric only, the battery pack, genset and drive motors can be optimized to move a much smaller weight, plus the smaller battery pack is a lot cheaper, and less damaging to the environment. Since you aren't trying to move a gigantic battery pack you don't need as large a drive motor or genset, which means the genset will use a lot less fuel. You wouldn't even need to mess with power recovery methods like using alternators for brakes, since that would add complexity and weight to the system that it really wouldn't need.

Ideally, you want the genset to be sized to maintain 80MPH with a full payload in the vehicle with no battery input at all. Few people drive faster than 80MPH for any distance, so the battery pack would be able to provide bursts up to 130-140MPH for short periods of time. Sizing the genset to move the vehicle at 80MPH means the car can be used as a conventional vehicle.

The upside to all this? See the links below. In the 1970s, a fellow used 1950s technology to build a series hybrid in his garage in Arkansas. He was able to build a 36V system using a tractor ICE and a generator head, a jet starter, and three car batteries to move an Opel GT at 45MPH on flat terrain all day long, and was seeing 70+MPG. Mother Earth used slightly newer technology and got a larger car to move 55MPH with mileage in the 80s.

Now imagine what GM could do if they were to engineer a series hybrid using today's technology. A direct injection turbocharged diesel genset, with a less than 1 liter diesel ICE, using 360V and the newest high power batteries to drive a Tesla AC induction motor would be able to move a Reatta-sized car 0-60 in less than 5 seconds, would be able to go 150MPH, and would likely see 150+MPG. While it would still be a fuel burner, a series hybrid would burn 1/5 the fuel used by a conventional vehicle, which while not perfect would allow a lot more time to develop technology to the point that we could stop burning fossil fuels.

Update: David Arthur' s Hybrid Electric Car

EARTH DIARY: 1993 Update:Dave Arthurs' Amazing Hybrid Electric Car

Mother' s Own Hybrid Car!

Hybrid II

Electric Car Conversion: The Amazing 75-MPG Hybrid Car

Incidentally, I no longer have the link, but in a Volt-related article one of the engineers on the EV1 stated that when they were doing the initial testing of the EV1, they were unable to maintain enough power to do the 24 hour endurance test that is standard for GM vehicles. They strapped a generator to the back of the car for the test, and it worked so well that the engineers tried to get GM to develop the tech. They were told no.

Sometimes I wonder how much of the auto makers is owned by the oil companies, and vice versa. Oil ownership of the auto makers would explain so much about their attitudes and decisions throughout the years.

Once I get a house and shop up, I plan to build a series hybrid. If it works, I'll do a kit. No idea what the donor vehicle will be.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Telco (see edit history)

[Guest steveskyhawk]

So the idea is to design a car with a driveline similar to a diesel-electric locomotive? Sounds good to me

[Guest Telco]

Yup, that's exactly it. A diesel electric locomotive gets 3 gallons to the mile, but the equivalent load according to my calculations pulled would be 450 tractor trailers getting some 60MPG each. This is provided the 3 gallons per mile is what the train gets loaded, if this is the unloaded usage then the tractors would likely be able to get less mileage to be the equivalent.

[padgett]

Diesel-electric has no batteries and was developed nearly a century ago to match the characteristics of a steam engine (max torque at 0 rpm).

Current designs are a kludge to meet a spec and not a need. Suspect the end state will be a fuel cell. Would personally like to see a return to external combustion but for the next 10-15 years the most cost effective mechanisms that you yeild the most return for minimum investment is still a small turbo diesels coupled to a CVT particularly if you want air con also.

Every time you change the energy mode (rotational to electrical and back to rotational) there is a loss involved. Part of the problem is that we are used to such terrible efficiency (on a good day only about 65% of the power of a gas engine is lost) that almost anything looks "better".

As for electrics, the issue would not just be LaLa land, picture Florida where the wagearners return at 6:30 pm, plug both electrics in, and turn down the a/c as they walk in (or all is done automagically in which case staging is possible). We even have answers for questions that should not be asked in the first place.

Dunno about anywhere else but here the front of the house should face north, there should be shade trees on the south and west, garage on the west and MBR on the east. Flow through ventilation is good.

Of course the developers first level everything, then plant houses wherever the driveway is the shortest and design for minimum ventilation.

[Ronnie]

Yup, that's exactly it. A diesel electric locomotive gets 3 gallons to the mile, but the equivalent load according to my calculations pulled would be 450 tractor trailers getting some 60MPG each. This is provided the 3 gallons per mile is what the train gets loaded, if this is the unloaded usage then the tractors would likely be able to get less mileage to be the equivalent.

The diesel electric locomotive was developed because of traction control and dynamic braking, not better fuel economy.

One of the biggest problems with the steam engine was the two (sometimes four) drive wheels would break loose and spin under load resulting in worn out wheels and flat spots on the rail. On the diesel electric locomotive there is an electric "traction motor" on each wheelset (one axle with a wheel mounted on each end). The electric traction motor is mounted in the center of each axle to distribute power to all the wheels under the locomotive evenly to avoid wheel spin. I guess that is why they call the motors "traction motors". Modern locomotives use electronics to route the most power to the traction motor with the best traction. If a wheelset starts to break loose, power is reduced and routed to another wheelset with better traction.

When the the locomotive needs to slow down, along with the friction brake system, dynamic braking is activated. Dynamic braking is when the traction motors become generators that provide rolling resistance to slow the train. The voltage generated during dynamic braking by the generators is routed to a large resistor grid where the energy is dissipated in the form of heat. Not a very efficient system from the standpoint of putting energy to good use.

I would agree that the trains have better fuel economy compared to a fleet of trucks hauling the same load but it is not because of the diesel electric drive system, it is because of the economy of scale. If we wanted to do the same thing with moving people that the railroads do with moving freight, we would put more people in each car and have less cars on the highway. Changing to diesel electric powered cars is not the answer.

[wws944]

It is interesting to look at the numbers. Current hybrid cars command a $4-6k price premium over the same car with gas only drivetrain. Figure how long it takes to pay that back in fuel savings. It will take most people many years - unless you have a very long commute. A Volt-like power train just makes a heck of a lot more sense.

It seems most of us who post on this board are "car guys" - and understand irrational (to most people) spending on performance upgrades and features and such which have little use in daily transportation. Consider that a lot of car buyers have shown that they will spend irrationally to show "they care" too. Unfortunately, GM/Ford/Chryco completely missed the market opportunity. It has been over 10 years since the first Priuses and Insights hit the US market, and the Big 3 have yet to really catch up.

I should also add that California really pushed the hybrids by giving "drive in the car pool lane with only one driver" stickers to them for a few years. For those who drive in heavy freeway traffic, the cars which were eligible for the stickers (none of which were made by the Big 3) could be a smart buy.

BTW, max torque at 0 rpm means max burnouts too.

[Guest Telco]

I can see how that would be, that the diesel electric's development was not for fuel economy. There's more to the world than efficiency. Nevertheless...

A diesel electric serial hybrid is still the answer to today's transportation needs. Diesel makes more torque than gasoline, therefore a smaller diesel engine would be needed to make the needed electrical power than would a gasoline engine. The diesel would get better fuel efficiency than the gasoline. The losses incurred in transferring from mechanical to electrical to mechanical would be minuscule compared to the increase in efficiency of only running an engine large enough to keep the vehicle moving, rather than running a giant one that is used to accelerate the vehicle, then mostly goes to waste for cruising. A smaller engine that always runs at its optimized peak efficiency RPM is always better for fuel efficiency than a larger engine that only hits its optimized RPM occasionally, and has to give up peak efficiency in the interests of a broad powerband.

Besides, saying it won't work flies in the face of it already been working for 30 years. I'd rather have all electric, but until it's practical I'll take 100+MPG with faster acceleration over 20MPG any day of the week. Increasing MPGs by a factor of 5 means 1/5 of the fuel is burned, fuel supplies are stretched 5 times further, and we have that much longer to develop the electrical infrastructure needed to ditch the oil.

In addition to that, a fleet of gasoline/diesel/NG/LPG/what have you serial hybrids would be prepped and ready when battery technology and infrastructure get put in. When that part's ready, it would be a simple matter of ICE out, new battery tech in.

[Ronnie]

Besides, saying it won't work flies in the face of it already been working for 30 years. I'd rather have all electric, but until it's practical I'll take 100+MPG with faster acceleration over 20MPG any day of the week. Increasing MPGs by a factor of 5 means 1/5 of the fuel is burned, fuel supplies are stretched 5 times further, and we have that much longer to develop the electrical infrastructure needed to ditch the oil.

I don't want to start and argument here but... Could you please post a link to where a vehicle like that exists that is in production and readily available for sale? Or a link to the current technology that would allow one to be built at an affordable price? If not all that would come under the heading of wishful thinking or as some folks call it bench racing.

There are a lot of good ideas that would seem to work great on paper but when put into practice rarely pan out. If it was simple to have 100 mpg and fast acceleration at the same time one of the car makers would have already developed it.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Don't forget to add in the cost to install a specialized sound system that plays the sweet sound of a V8 with glass packs revving up and crusing so when you step on the floor mounted rheostat to you can drown out the constant drone from the diesel engine and the whirr from the electric drive motor!

[wws944]

Don't forget to add in the cost to install a specialized sound system that plays the sweet sound of a V8 with glass packs revving up and crusing so when you step on the floor mounted rheostat to you can drown out the constant drone from the diesel engine and the whirr from the electric drive motor!

That is the easy part. Harder is reproducing the sweet smell of freshly burned nitro...

[padgett]

I'd take the smell of Castrol R to nitro anyday, and for power, hydrazine and other hypergolic propellants.

[Guest Telco]

I don't want to start and argument here but... Could you please post a link to where a vehicle like that exists that is in production and readily available for sale? Or a link to the current technology that would allow one to be built at an affordable price? If not all that would come under the heading of wishful thinking or as some folks call it bench racing.

There are a lot of good ideas that would seem to work great on paper but when put into practice rarely pan out. If it was simple to have 100 mpg and fast acceleration at the same time one of the car makers would have already developed it.

Sorry if it's coming across as argumentative, it's not meant to be. The links in comment 19 show the serial hybrid in action, and show how well it worked after built. The current technology would have to be researched, but any site that lists how to convert a car to all electric with batteries would provide most of the information needed. The motor isn't going to care where the electricity comes from, so long as its within requirements, so you'd just have to set that part up as another feed, like adding a battery string.

And, GM actually is starting doing this. The Chevy Volt is a serial hybrid. The only difference between what I want and what they are doing, is they stuffed in a hugely expensive battery pack so that the car would be able to run 40 miles on electricity only. If they ditched the battery pack they could knock 10 grand or more off the price, and they'd sell like hotcakes. When in generator mode the Volt is supposed to get 50MPG. Now if they dropped the heavy battery pack, and changed to a diesel ICE, I imagine they'd be able to get into triple digits. Even if they didn't hit triples, getting it close is better than not at all. And, if you take the 40 miles of battery only range into account they state that one tank it will see 55MPG. GM claims that for the average city commuter who basically goes to work and back and plugs in nightly will see 230MPG off each tank of fuel.

Once GM gets experienced at serial hybrids, I can see them making triple digits as a matter of routine, especially since some old country hick who happened to be an electrical engineer was able to get 70MPG with one.

[Ronnie]

I started to go through the links you provided but I stopped after reading the first one that contained the following statement:

"(His hybrid electric auto uses a fuel-sipping 5 horsepower generator drive engine, and can attain speeds of up to 90 MPH!")

If you are relying on such nonsense to support what you are saying about generator driven electric cars I will respectfully withdraw from this conversion.

[hinspect]

Where is Stan Meyer and crew when we need them? (joke)

[handmedownreatta]

And, GM actually is starting doing this. The Chevy Volt is a serial hybrid. The only difference between what I want and what they are doing, is they stuffed in a hugely expensive battery pack so that the car would be able to run 40 miles on electricity only. If they ditched the battery pack they could knock 10 grand or more off the price, and they'd sell like hotcakes. When in generator mode the Volt is supposed to get 50MPG. Now if they dropped the heavy battery pack, and changed to a diesel ICE, I imagine they'd be able to get into triple digits.

id prefer gm replace the engine with more batteries and get the battery range to at least 100 miles.i have a car for long trips.i want a daily driver thats electric[or runs on compressed air].

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Checking commercially available gas powered generators, you get about 1 KW for each 2.5 HP of engine. So a 5 HP gas or diesel engine would give about 2KW continuous AC power. What does the drive motor need to go 90 mph? I believe you would still need batteries or huge capacitors to keep the surge from bogging down the generator and stalling the engine if you were to hit the go button from a dead stop. That 2KW continuous is only 2.2 KW MAX. I bet that 5 second 0 to sixty needs a lot of amps to pull off.

[Guest Telco]

Yes I was, Ronnie. The car uses a 5HP generator, and can attain speeds of 90MPH. The disconnect for you here is most likely that you are assuming that he is running 90MPH all day long on the 5HP generator. The car also has batteries that the generator recharges, and the batteries will provide power for getting to the 90MPH top speed. Obviously he could only go 90 until the generator and battery combo could no longer sustain that speed. What this means is, the car will get up to 90MPH, so it has a 90MPH top speed. Our Reattas have a top speed of 125MPH, but we don't drive them at 125 day in and day out. Mine normally doesn't go over 60. Go ahead and read the other articles. In one of them, it states that his car is able to cruise all day at 45MPH on level ground, which he'd be able to do with a 5HP engine in a very lightweight vehicle. I would hate for you to be dismissing the entire concept because you didn't like one sentence.

[Ronnie]

I'm not dismissing the concept. After working for the railroad for 25 years I fully understand it. Powering locomotives is based on it.

I'm not an engineer but I am a machinist who understands the workings of electrical, mechanical and hydraulic systems quite well. I can assure you, based on my past experience with building machinery, that 5 horsepower will not push a 2000 pound Opal GT 45 mph all day long, even on level ground, (which is hard to find here in Tennessee). Maybe if it was moving through a vacuum... but a place to drive in a vacuum is even harder to find here in Tennessee.

The article goes on to say:

"While scouting out an efficient, lightweight battery, for instance, he uncovered several good sources of such power-packs"...

After reading that did you not stop and wonder why the major car manufacturing companies have not found those sources?? The weight and inefficiency of batteries is one of the major obstacles holding back the mass production of affordable electric cars.

This line from the same paragraph sums up why Mother Earth News is singing the praises of the car:

..."along with the design innovations-Dave supplied to Mother Earth News for her plans package."

You can bet they are not going to be giving away those plans! Their "TUB-STYLE MECHANICAL CHICKEN PLUCKER PLAN" is $19.95. I'm certain the cost for plans to build an affordable hybrid vehicle that GM hasn't been able to build will be higher. Even if they were $19.95 I think you would be disappointed with your purchase. Edited January 21, 2010 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Guest Telco]

Nice on the engineer job, probably beats my telecom job on the enjoyment factor.

I also don't wonder about why the manufacturers don't do this. They are so unwilling to update capital expenditures that they lobby Congress to keep standards from being updated. Which is cheaper, pad a Congressman with 100 grand or upgrade an assembly line for 100 million?

According to my vehicle programming software, EFI Live, it only takes about 25HP for my 4000+ pound truck (2000 Silverado Z71 reg cab widebed) to maintain 70MPH. I don't know how this is derived, but it's calculated by the ECM in the truck. The software is just reading it. I'd have to guess that GM is able to calculate how much HP is being expended based off sensor readings, and had a reason to need that information. Since wind resistance increases exponentially according to speed, and is negligible below 45MPH, I could see a 5HP generator head being able to move a car half as heavy and more aerodynamic at a slower speed.

[padgett]

Want 40 mpg ? The most cost efficient way is a sub-1 liter TD in a ightweight two passenger car.

Oh, they only sold the diesel SMART in Canada and Europe.

[Guest Telco]

Want 40 mpg ? The most cost efficient way is a sub-1 liter TD in a ightweight two passenger car.

Oh, they only sold the diesel SMART in Canada and Europe.

I send emails to GM regularly asking them to develop the Duramax platform further, and build 4 and 6 cylinders based on it. They already have a 4.5L V8 developed that is a built-as-a-diesel engine but has the same dimensions as a small block Chevy but it's not been released. If they were to do a 3 liter V6 and a 1.5 liter inline 4 and put them in the passenger cars I think they'd do really well. VW does very well with their TDs, supposedly getting better than 40+MPG in their Rabbits and Passats.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Just get on of these. VW already has already done all the development. 235 mpg!

VW 1-Liter tandem city car tipped for 2010 production - MotorAuthority