Alcohol Gas and Vapor Lock

[Dynaflash8]

Since they have forciably introduced alcohol gas at all stations here in Florida, I've come upon a knotty problem. I'm looking for anybody out there who has solved it. My 1939 Buicks will occasionally vapor lock running along the highway with temperatures of 90 or so and up. After stopping for gas or any other reason, when the temperature gauge goes up to the top while stopped, they will start right up and within 100 feet simply run out of gas. I've installed an electric fuel pump in line with a switch. When the car starves, I switch on the electric fuel pump and within seconds, the gas picks up and off we go again.

This is a pain to say the least. So, I bought some race car insulation for the fuel lines, but it's going to look horrible, and I'm not sure it will solve the problem anyway. This is because (1) while the car is stopped, the gas starts to boil in the sedament bowl on top of the fuel pump and (2) the car starts right up and goes, which indicates there is gas forward of the fuel pump until it's used up. To me that means the boiling gas at the fuel pump is creating a vapor or vacuum.

I thought of wrapping the fuel pump in home fiberglas insulation, but sort of discarded that idea. My current thinking is to install a fuel pressure regulator and go strictly to the electric fuel pump; piping around the mechanical fuel pump so as not to destroy the authentic look. I've been warned that if I don't take the mechanical fuel pump out of the line, I risk the rubber diaphragm breaking and having the electric fuel pump put lots of gas into the crankcase to ruin the engine.

So, you've read all of this. Who else is having this problem? Have you done anything about it if you have? What did you come up with?

[Dave@Moon]

My 1960 Buick had a tiny Stromberg carburetor on top of a Buick big block. When gas was reformulated (with a much lower boiling point) in 1996/7 I had to resort to using an electric fuel pump full-time. I also relocated the fuel line away from the motor, since it no longer had to approach the fuel pump (for which I simply made a loop of fuel line so it wouldn't pump air into the crankcase in case the diaphragm failed). That solved the problem.

In 1980-1983 I was in graduate school in Iowa, driving a 1960 Falcon. Virtually ALL gasoline in Iowa was already E10 by then, and probably has been ever since. My Falcon did exactly the same thing (stumble/stall) on restarts that you describe all summer long. It was an inconvenience to be sure, but one I learned to live with. I learned to let the car idle for 30 seconds (long enough to vapor lock) after starting, just until it started to stumble. I would then blip the throttle several times, upping the rpms enough to "get through" the stumbling. Whether it was the fan cooling the lines or the pump upping the pressure in them and itself, the car would run fine from that point on.

If your problems have only been an irritant, you might get away with adjusting your driving like I did in Iowa. If you do go the electric fuel pump route I would seriously consider a relocated fuel line to avoid engine heat. Fuel lines can boil just as well as fuel pumps.

[Dynaflash8]

Thanks. It's been driving me crazy and it's a shame. I've owned this car since 1963 and driven it at 98 degrees many times and this never happened before. I'd say it was the car, but it has happened on all three of my '39 Buicks. I don't understand your description of the loop. Please write me at FireballStr8@aol.com and try to explain it to me more. I'm mechanically as dumb as a post.

[Dandy Dave]

One thing I have learned,.... If you have changed the fuel pump, and the replacment has plastic valves, they will swell up and stick in the cages making it difficult, or imposible for the pump to move fuel efficiantly. Dand Dave!

[Richard Lichtfel]

I have had the same problem with my 1916 Peerless V-8. The vacuum tank is on the firewall and heats up and the carburator sits between the exhaust manifolds in the valley. On hot days it would be OK if I was moving down the road but when I stopped it would start perculating, missing and stall. I insulated the fuel lines which helped but didn't solve the problem. A friend told me that he used a product called Seafoam in his gas and solved his problem. I tried it this summer and it seemed to work, however with this global warming we had the coolest summer on record and I never got out on a really hot day.

The nice thing about Wisconsin is there are many country taverns that are great places to let the engine cool off at.

[jrbartlett]

One of the tricks we used when driving vacuum-tank-equipped cars across Texas during the 1960s was to install an insulated heat shield around the vacuum tank itself, since the tanks are typically mounted on the wirewall above the exhaust manifolds. It helps.

[Dynaflash8]

QUOTE: A friend told me that he used a product called Seafoam in his gas and solved his problem. UNQUOTE

I had a 76 Lincoln that got water in the tank and Seafoam was worthless, but that was with real gas. Here's our plan. We're going to block both inlet and outlet on the fuel pump, install an adjustable fuel regulator between the current inlet and outlet lines formerly hooked to the fuel pump and run on the electric fuel pump all of the time. I'll set the regulator to 4 pounds like it's supposed to be and locate it under the fuel pump. AACA allows an electric fuel pump on pre-War cars for judging. That said, I don't know what you'd do on a 1946-53 Buick straight 8 and still be okay for judging. They are the same cars mechanically.

If the diaphragm in the mechanical fuel pump goes bad, that way it won't matter.

[Guest Dean_H.]

I think your plan will solve your problem.

I had some vapor lock issues on a 1960 Chevrolet work truck a couple years back. I'd used this truck for about twenty years with no problems, until the vapor locking started. It was pretty ugly, wouldn't start at the most inopportune moments. I even resorted to pouring my large soda drink on the fuel lines, on one occasion, which left me parched on a hot day. :-(

My fix was to add a thick gasket under the carb to disrupt heat transfer. And I slit a piece of rubber fuel line length wise and put it over the steel fuel line for insulating purposes. Small tie wraps hold it in place, doesn't look to obscene. These two modifications did the trick for me, haven't had any problems since.

[Dynaflash8]

Thanks Dean,

We've also thought about the rubber hose idea, but just didn't think it would provide enough insulation. In addition, the vacuum line runs along with the fuel line for most of the way from the fuel pump to the carburetor on thes old Buick straight eights. It would take a bigger rubber hose. So I bought some stuff from a race car supplier called "Cool Tube." but it is large and grotesque. Ha, another $50 down the drain, as it was special order at Advance Auto.

If I'm going to run the Sentimental Tour in Texas next year I need to get this problem solved, that's for sure, unless they use real gas in Texas.

[rick60]

As a former mechanic I would occasionally replace AC lines. GM cars had insulation material for AC lines that were routed near the exhaust pipes. They are made of a reflective foil type of material. I cut the hose and remove the insulation. These will slip nicely over fuel lines. They look professional and do a good job of insulating the fuel line. There must be a lot of these in salvage yards.

[Dynaflash8]

I bought some race car stuff called "Cool Tube" but it would have looked so lousy on the car I didn't use it. So, yesterday I gave in and installed a fuel pressure regulator and by-passed the mechanical fuel pump so as to run off the electric fuel pump all of the time. First time out, I turned on the turn signal and immediately ran out of gas (hahah). The guy who installed the electric fuel pump (which takes a 15 amp fuse) hooked it to the turn signal circuit (controlled by a 5 amp fuse). You guessed it, I blew the 5 amp fuse. I guess I never turned the pump on before and the turnsignal at the same time. So, today we will hook to a proper source and see how the car runs on electric. Of course today we have a cool spell. Anyway, if it works, we'll replace the rubber hose with a custom-made piece of steel line. I don't think I need to insulate the lines, because gas was boiling in the fuel pump sedament bowl, but we'll see. If it works, I'll do the other old Buicks, or I'll make necessary changes until they'll run on this lousy gas.

[R W Burgess]

Speaking of Alcohol additives, we had a major problem on the Founders Tour in South Carolina recently. I bought all of my gas from the nearest, cheapest, local gas station (sue me, I'm a cheap skate!).

My Corvette ran fine the first 2 days, but the 3rd day, it ran so bad that I gave up and put it back in the transporter. After returning home, I refilled the car and it ran fine after that new tank of Virginia gas.

I will admit here, that I probably got a load of water in my tank in SC. Alcohol attracts water, right? I'm assuming that's what happened. So, with this assumption, I'll add that it's advisable to buy gas from a station that has a lot of customers, thereby keeping the water, if any, in suspension.

Share the wealth, or misery, in this case!

Wayne

[Dynaflash8]

Wayne, Alcohol gas makes water, separates it differently too. You can't use Dry Gas with this junk Ethanol as it will make it worse. That's why some people are trying this Sea Foam stuff, but I got a load of watered gas at the station in Village, VA in the 76 Lincoln I owned at the time. Seafoam didn't help at all, but Dry Gas did --- and of course that was real gas up there. Hey Wayne, we're going to look at a foreclosed house in Coles Point this weekend. We'd still like to have a summer place up there. Miss all the Northern Neckers in the club up there.

[Dynaflash8]

Well, today was another trial and failure. Now we have to try Dean H's idea of putting rubber hose over the fuel lines. We redirected the electrical circuit for the electric fuel pump so it wasn't hooked to the 5 amp fuse for the turn signals today. It was time for another trial run. Oh Boy, it was great! I ran about 10 miles, some of which was 60 mph and some stop and start, and the car ran perfect. So, I came home and parked it for 10 minutes and watched the temperature go up from 180 to 200, 205 something like that. I took off up the road and strung it out in first, second, dropped into third and tromped it, great! Turned into a side street, around the block and back out onto the main road after a couple of stop signs, and tromped it...........buzz, running out of gas.......pumped the heck out of the accelerator and it picked up, jerked some, and came on home. Parked it for a few minutes and went out again, and darned near didn't get back home......I was peddling for about a block, bucking and coughing and then it smoothed out. I backed it into the driveway and it sat there and purred, so I backed it into the garage and sat there feeling sick. So, it wasn't just the boiling in the mechanical fuel pump. I guess next we'll get some hose and cover the fuel lines. At one place the metal fuel line is only about one inch from the exhaust manifold, but that's how it came from the factory. Come on guyss, there's a whole bunch of mechanics out there aren't there? Dean H., tomorrow or when I get back from Hershey, we'll put the rubber hose over the lines and see what that does. Everybody pray for me.

[Guest kaycee]

You might try the 'woven' tubing cover they used on choke tubes going into the exhaust manifolds on the '50s-'70s GM cars. It should fit over fuel lines, and must be some type of asbestos material which may insulate the line from heat versus keep the heat in as it does in choke tubes.

kaycee

[Bill Boudway]

I've installed an electric fuel pump on our Chrysler and will also add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

Does anyone have a source for one of these?

A few years ago, a friend had similar problems with his Packard Twin Six. He solved it by cutting the volatility of the fuel by adding 20% kerosene to the gasoline.

Has anyone tried this?

Bill Boudway

[ex98thdrill]

Since they have forciably introduced alcohol gas at all stations here in Florida, I've come upon a knotty problem. I'm looking for anybody out there who has solved it. My 1939 Buicks will occasionally vapor lock running along the highway with temperatures of 90 or so and up. After stopping for gas or any other reason, when the temperature gauge goes up to the top while stopped, they will start right up and within 100 feet simply run out of gas. I've installed an electric fuel pump in line with a switch. When the car starves, I switch on the electric fuel pump and within seconds, the gas picks up and off we go again.

This is a pain to say the least. So, I bought some race car insulation for the fuel lines, but it's going to look horrible, and I'm not sure it will solve the problem anyway. This is because (1) while the car is stopped, the gas starts to boil in the sedament bowl on top of the fuel pump and (2) the car starts right up and goes, which indicates there is gas forward of the fuel pump until it's used up. To me that means the boiling gas at the fuel pump is creating a vapor or vacuum.

I thought of wrapping the fuel pump in home fiberglas insulation, but sort of discarded that idea. My current thinking is to install a fuel pressure regulator and go strictly to the electric fuel pump; piping around the mechanical fuel pump so as not to destroy the authentic look. I've been warned that if I don't take the mechanical fuel pump out of the line, I risk the rubber diaphragm breaking and having the electric fuel pump put lots of gas into the crankcase to ruin the engine.

So, you've read all of this. Who else is having this problem? Have you done anything about it if you have? What did you come up with?

Hey Earl, while you're still a national director you might want to address this issue with the class judging committee. If these cars won't stay running, you won't be able to get them on the showfield without modifications.

Of course if you modify the fuel lines you'll face a deduction in judging based on what's written in the current judging guidelines.

If you're having problems getting your car to run, just picture 1,500 more of them lined up at Hershey waiting to get onto the showfield. It has the potential of getting ugly.

I'm not taking a shot at the rules or at anyone, but I understand that vehicles were not delivered new with tin foil on the fuel lines, electric fuel pumps are not permitted on anything post war, yet all vehicles are required to be driven onto the showfield. If the current fuel won't allow the cars to run on their own without modifications, we have a problem, which in turn could cost owners awards if they point judge their vehicles..

The Class Judging Committee might want to get this on the radar screen to think about how they're going to address it.

[R W Burgess]

Hey Earl, while you're still a national director you might want to address this issue with the class judging committee. If these cars won't stay running, you won't be able to get them on the showfield without modifications.

Of course if you modify the fuel lines you'll face a deduction in judging based on what's written in the current judging guidelines.

If you're having problems getting your car to run, just picture 1,500 more of them lined up at Hershey waiting to get onto the showfield. It has the potential of getting ugly.

I'm not taking a shot at the rules or at anyone, but I understand that vehicles were not delivered new with tin foil on the fuel lines, electric fuel pumps are not permitted on anything post war, yet all vehicles are required to be driven onto the showfield. If the current fuel won't allow the cars to run on their own without modifications, we have a problem, which in turn could cost owners awards if they point judge their vehicles..

The Class Judging Committee might want to get this on the radar screen to think about how they're going to address it.

Pat,

I don't consider this a problem yet. You will always be able to buy additives or even higher performance fuels to make it onto show fields for national meets. Personally I don't think we have a situation where rules need to be changed.

Wayne

[ex98thdrill]

Pat,

I don't consider this a problem yet. You will always be able to buy additives or even higher performance fuels to make it onto show fields for national meets. Personally I don't think we have a situation where rules need to be changed.

Wayne

You're right, but it might be worth putting on the radar screen. Can you imagine having a line of cars at Hershey waiting to get onto the show field and having 20 (or 100 cars) vabor lock??

That line through the car corrall back in 2007 was bad enough, but mass amounts of vapor lock would be a Chief Judge's and traffic nightmare.

[Guest 1950SuperBlueBuick]

Hi Dynash8,

I went the same route as you with the insulated foil... looked terrible and didn't help much. Other folks have suggested running a temp rubber line from the pump over the top of the valve cover and into the back of the carb. Reconnect your stock lines for judging.

I've had several stalling issues with my '50 Super 263. Finally installed a 6V fuel pump & regulator set at 4lbs. along the frame rail by the right rear wheel. I only use it to prime the lines after sitting a couple weeks. Run pump for 15 seconds, then hit starter. Turn off pump once engine fires. I also turn on the pump just when the car starts to stall at speed for a couple seconds. Then it clears up.

My Buick is also knocking/pinging pretty bad on E10 so I'm retarding the timing to 3BTDC. Will experiment with that for a bit.

Winning trophies takes a back seat to having the car run acceptably well IMO. The rest of the car is all original and anyone doing research for their own Buick would know this is an obvious modification to keep the car on the road.

Not looking forward to the day when E15 and E30 are the choices.

[lowell fast]

The E10 also does not store well. It is sucking H2o out of the air constantly. If you are concerned about being able to function in an event, consider aircraft fuel from your local airport. It keeps very well and is formulated for preventing vapor lock in air craft at altitude.

It stores well for over a year when my local gas gives me problems in a month or two.

Search for the fuel system design for the old Seagrave fire engines. They did not tolerate vapor lock.

Lowell

[Dave@Moon]

If you are concerned about being able to function in an event, consider aircraft fuel from your local airport. It keeps very well and is formulated for preventing vapor lock in air craft at altitude.

It stores well for over a year when my local gas gives me problems in a month or two.

It's also illegal. Not only is it illegal to use untaxed fuel in every state, it is up to a $25,000 Federal fine to use leaded fuels of any kind in a car on public roads (Most av-gas contains lead, all but the 82UL grade which is essentially 87 octane unleaded.)

[rons49]

There are at least two gas preservatives on the market, Sea-foam or Stabil both work well. The AACA must consider changing the rules soon before we learn of a member killed when his, or her , car fuel starved getting on a freeway or through an intersection. Bad publicity like that will cause alarm through the land and may suggest demands to remove vintage vehicles from public roads. An electric fuel pump, installed with professional standards may be considered a saftey upgrade such as seat belts etc. There are ways to reduce vapor lock (actually fuel starvation)but, a electric pump is almost always necessary. I have done extensive research on this for another club. One of my cars was just judged by some one on this thread and that person, or any other judge, would not know that there was any modification.Think of cars as you would a airplane. No one would fly a plane that will stall under a certain cicumstance, nor drive a car on the highways. If AACA rules permit prewar cars to have electric pumps for safety, is it too safe to install them on a later model for equal safety?

[Paul Dobbin]

OK, here is what worked for us. If judging is more important than running well

then you may want to do this where it's not seen.

1. Put an electric fuel pump (they come in 6V & 12V) just ahead of the gas

tank, because they push not pull.

2. Put a T in the gas line just before the carburetor. Run one side of the T

to the carburetor, the other side back to the gas tank. (this makes it a

recirculating system like new cars)

If carefully done it's almost invisible and vapor lock is a thing of the past.

We used this method on the 1935 Chrysler Airflow in 46 States (where quality of gas varied a lot) on 13 Great American Races plus the "Around the World in 80 Days" London to London Race. (where gas was awful) NO VAPOR LOCK!

Extra benefit: On the Pikes Peak Climb we discovered that turning on the second electric fuel pump (spare) at the same time gave plenty of gas!

[rons49]

That's one way. But can be seen by judges if it matters. Also some where in the"feedback" line a fuel restrictor must be installed or there will be a drop in fuel pressure. A stock brass 1/8x1/8npt with a .030 orifice does well. Downside...if the elec pump is on and the mech pump diaphram spouts a leak gas can dump into the crankcase. Two safe ways...1. put elec pump by the fuel tank run a straight line to the carb put a check valve in the line to maintain fuel close to the carb.Keep the mech pump on car after the cam arm is removed, block hole so no oil is lost place dummy lines from the gas line to the original pump. If you have a dual action mech pump then a small vacuum storage tank can be added or removed in seconds,to keep wipers from stopping on accel.2. instead of a straight run, cut the fuel line and send incoming fuel through the old pump and out again as originally done. Diaphram must be good or gas will leak onto the ground.No check valve needed as there is one in the mech pump. Both systems will probably need a pressure regulator before the mech pump. Reminder solenoid (E-8011 6v, 8012 12v) is a pump that claims freeflow,ie,gas will pass when not running, not true with a gear driven and a rotary vane has no check valve. Have fun!